Reintroduce Jump Drives, or, Built-in Jump is Still Wierd.

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I like the new jump drive system. The stock jump drive has a distance of three sectors but it's fairly easy to upgrade it into a better jump drive than we had access to before. I rarely bothered putting jump drives into many ships in the past because I was already sacrificing most of my internal volume for interior I didn't have the space to have a massive clump of jump drives to hit the peek charge time. In some cases I wanted to but there was simply not enough room.

We also got decorative versions of the old jump and jump inhibitor module so you can still use those decoratively where ever you like.

The one thing I am hoping for is logic interaction. I want to be able to at the very least swap reactors so at the push of a button I can switch between a purpose build jump reactor and my main reactor with all the other bells and whistles. I also would like to see the ability to switch chambers on and off so we can have a single reactor that can divert it's power between systems. Fly into combat and take power away from the FLT tree to boost your shields for example. It gives us a lot more options when building ships that the system currently doesn't allow. (well there is nothing stopping you from building the chambers now and manually switching)

 

[Crimson-Artist]

I like the new jump drive system. The stock jump drive has a distance of three sectors but it's fairly easy to upgrade it into a better jump drive than we had access to before. I rarely bothered putting jump drives into many ships in the past because I was already sacrificing most of my internal volume for interior I didn't have the space to have a massive clump of jump drives to hit the peek charge time. In some cases I wanted to but there was simply not enough room.

We also got decorative versions of the old jump and jump inhibitor module so you can still use those decoratively where ever you like.

The one thing I am hoping for is logic interaction. I want to be able to at the very least swap reactors so at the push of a button I can switch between a purpose build jump reactor and my main reactor with all the other bells and whistles. I also would like to see the ability to switch chambers on and off so we can have a single reactor that can divert it's power between systems. Fly into combat and take power away from the FLT tree to boost your shields for example. It gives us a lot more options when building ships that the system currently doesn't allow. (well there is nothing stopping you from building the chambers now and manually switching)

The only thing I don't like about the new systems is that now that a lot of systems have been internalized it makes filming certain things harder when you're by yourself. I used to be able to film FTL jumps by connecting a ship's jump drive to a logic clock and just film it until it jumped. Now I gotta get creative.

 

[Az14el]

fleet a core > sit down on core > fleet move command to desired coordinates > log off and make a coffee or something
All around faster process when used to it, especially if your server has boosted fleet movement

 

[JinM]

I would very much prefer not to have two reactors on a general-purpose ship. They're heavy! It would be better if the game were balanced so that only ships with specialized roles like perma-stealth need a second reactor for anything.

Well. Wouldn't that be imbalanced?

I don't know I am not a game designer. I just have the clue that it could take away some depth, if everyone could put in a chaindrive into his ship, without getting any real disadvantages from it in other aspects of his ship.

 

[Captain Fortius]

Does using a second reactor work for you? Did you try it out?

I can imagine that a second one would take up a lot of space, but I didn't try it out myself. I am just currious how 2 reactor ships would feel and how others perceive them.

Maybe, if 2 reactor strats are not cool for everyone, we could suggest to lower the points needed for a good jd, or we could suggest to make the usage of 2 reactors more viable.

This multi-reactor system is so wrong.

That's never how it works!

Spaceships sometimes have multiple reactors, but that's because of redundancy and safety! ( One big reactor means one big boom if it's ever ruptured, while if you have several smaller ones, a few can be lost without crippling the ship )

-BUT they tend to be online at the same time! Why'd anyone only turn on just one reactor stack out of a dozen when you could use every bit of extra power? I mean in some situations, sure. Like, we're drifting dead to avoid enemy sensors? Sure, shut down all but one to keep life support sort of on. Half of them took damage? Sure, shut them down before we blow the ship. But all of them working fine? Well ignite them, before that enemy cruiser burns through our shields damnit!

Sure, Schine is free to make their own decisions, but they've just pulled the equivalent of a fantasy writer deciding that the dwarwes in his universe are taller than humans, greener than orcs, and daintier than elves.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Not that this hasn't been explained in the previous posts, but how is putting undue strain on the server and teleporting to anywhere near-instantenously is NOT a problem and an exploit?

A certain time factor must be involved in travel, otherwise the system is open for abuse; eliminating tactical choices or any risk and investment, and only giving rewards.

The most basic example:

One could just zig-zag around until he finds a sufficiently vulnerable target, do something nasty, then escape in moments to literally any place in the universe, thus negating any possibility of defense or retalliation.
Of course it's the basic hit&run principle, which in itself is a tactic that you should be totally free to use when you want, but the means the game gave you for getting to and escaping from the target zone are not in balance with the means of countering such actions.

The second one being, you can't believe it's good for the game engine to load up a new star system every two seconds?

By the way, this would be one of those "I can't believe why I have to explain it's better to walk with your legs instead of your hands" moments, except I've seen enough forum BS to easily believe you needed this explanation and will still refuse to understand.

There are several common misconceptions here.

1. Multiple patches were already in place that made logic drives supper light weight on servers. Latest gen jump drives were generally 12-24 total logic pulses a second, not like the 10s of thousands of pulses of the old X-drives. Older gen drives that were still in uses were also limited to ~32 pulses/sec/jumpComputer, so still only a few hundred pulses which is still very little actual processing power.
2. There was time involved. It took about 3 seconds per jump. Server's such as LvD actually encouraged chain drives and countered their abilities with shorter 3 sector jump ranges. This actually made jumping feel less "exploity" because if someone ran away, you'd have a short window to check nav and try to track them down. Running was still an option, but so was chasing.
3. Chaindrives were VERY easy to inhibit, so most players still relied on a backup heavy drive if they needed to run.

Additionally: Now you have to think whether your ship is able to move around quickly, or if it is dedicated to fighting. Smaller ships can't afford the space of a second reactor and rely on carriers now if they are dedicated for fighting instead of scouting.

Fighters never used jumpdrives or carriers, people just fleet them since they move so fast when unloaded anyway.

 

[Captain Fortius]

There are several common misconceptions here.

1. Multiple patches were already in place that made logic drives supper light weight on servers. Latest gen jump drives were generally 12-24 total logic pulses a second, not like the 10s of thousands of pulses of the old X-drives. Older gen drives that were still in uses were also limited to ~32 pulses/sec/jumpComputer, so still only a few hundred pulses which is still very little actual processing power.
2. There was time involved. It took about 3 seconds per jump. Server's such as LvD actually encouraged chain drives and countered their abilities with shorter 3 sector jump ranges. This actually made jumping feel less "exploity" because if someone ran away, you'd have a short window to check nav and try to track them down. Running was still an option, but so was chasing.
3. Chaindrives were VERY easy to inhibit, so most players still relied on a backup heavy drive if they needed to run.

Fighters never used jumpdrives or carriers, people just fleet them since they move so fast when unloaded anyway.

Being difficult, I see.

The issue is not a few logic ticks, it's loading a new sector every few seconds. Which most people have realized by themselves, or at least understood after the first time it was explained. ( It was explained in this topic as well. )

But I get it. Reading is hard, eh?

You cannot seriously think 3 seconds per jump is an actual time investment. It's basically just the jump animation. The end result is, you've still crossed the entire galaxy by the time a ship with a traditional drive crossed a few star systems.

And that backup drive just added to the problem. It's exactly as you wrote; a chain drive's main weakness was how easily an inhibitor could stop them. But you could add as many drives to your ship as you wanted, and your single big drive could take you out of inhibitor range, and quickly resume chain jumping.

Plus, you could just stay quiet about it. It's gone, and the game's better for it.
If you needed it to feel like a winner, and are so sorely affected by it's loss, that says quite a few things about you. Bad things.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Being difficult, I see...But I get it. Reading is hard, eh?... Plus, you could just stay quiet about it. It's gone, and the game's better for it... If you needed it to feel like a winner, and are so sorely affected by it's loss, that says quite a few things about you. Bad things.

Wow, hostile much? Speaking of reading, go double check the forum's new rules and conditions.

The issue is not a few logic ticks, it's loading a new sector every few seconds.

Loading sectors only takes as much to load as what is in them; so, other than jumping near the occasional planet or homebase (which happens very rarely by accident), your point is moot. You can have 10 players chain driving titans around a server without issue, it's only the endpoints (where two large ships jump next to each other) where have issues, and removing chain drives does not help that.

Just because two people say the same thing does not make it true. Try asking actual server admins who have tested these things and you will see that you are simply mistaken. Most of the lag felt from chaindriving is client side, which makes it irrelevant since you are literally just sitting there waiting anyway.

You cannot seriously think 3 seconds per jump is an actual time investment. It's basically just the jump animation. The end result is, you've still crossed the entire galaxy by the time a ship with a traditional drive crossed a few star systems..

3 seconds per jump, when the jump range is only 3 sectors is a good investment of time when the average distance between any two random players is typically 100-300 sectors. That is about 2-5 minutes of travel time which is a fair amount of time to be sitting in front of your computer waiting with nothing else to do. This is about the speed of NPC fleet movements on many servers anyway. They were only a problem on servers that let you jump 10-15 sectors at a time where you could hit any target in seconds. This was a balancing issue, not a mechanics issue.

Also, even a maxed out chamber jump drive lacks the most important quality-of-life function of a chain drive which is continuous flight. Most players I've asked would rather wait 10 minutes to get to their destination than spend 5 minutes pressing a button over and over every few seconds. If travel is too annoying, people won't bother. That means less point in actually making this a multiplayer game which is the one thing it really does better than other space voxel games.

And that backup drive just added to the problem. It's exactly as you wrote; a chain drive's main weakness was how easily an inhibitor could stop them. But you could add as many drives to your ship as you wanted, and your single big drive could take you out of inhibitor range, and quickly resume chain jumping.

Jump inhibitors drain all jump drives at once, and they could completely drain a chain drive before you even have time to realize you are being inhibited. Chain drives move quickly because they charge many weaker jump drives at the same time. Once drained, you need to wait the FULL time it takes to charge a single tiny jump drive before the system will begin working again; so, if your pursuer has a better jump drive, or a wingman in reserve, he could then catch up to you.

This added tactics and depth to space battles making them more dynamic than just spamming weapons till someone was dead or ran away, if you ever actually fought in any of the major wars that used to be common place in this game, you'd have seen this many times before.

And in the future: it's one thing to disagree with me, I don't mind that, but if you are going to trash talk me in the process try using actual facts and credible sources of information.

 

[Captain Fortius]

Wow, hostile much? Speaking of reading, go double check the forum's new rules and conditions.

Sheltered much?

Or trying to abuse said rules much?

I especially wrote that whole post with a child-friendly tone in mind.

The rest is the same bunch of lies as before. It'd be a waste of time to tell you the same stuff again.

 

[Dire Venom]

Sheltered much?

Or trying to abuse said rules much?

I especially wrote that whole post with a child-friendly tone in mind.

The rest is the same bunch of lies as before. It'd be a waste of time to tell you the same stuff again.

Lol you just got a warning. Praise the devs!

Back on topic, i still miss that shooting somones warp drive would reset it's charge :3

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Back on topic, i still miss that shooting someones warp drive would reset it's charge :3

That was also one of the reasons I never bothered using large jump drives on most ships. I remember once I accidentally flew into a star and just as I was about to initiate the jump drive *BOOM* the charge resets to zero. It took a few attempts until the jump drive was able to charge and I got away.

 

[JinM]

This multi-reactor system is so wrong.

I don't think it's completely wrong, but it has some flaws.
I don't need more reactors in my ship.

The current mechanics allow me to just turn chambers on and off with a very small cooldown time.
For example I have a jump maxed chamber setup. When I try to ambush people in their homebases I activate to my stealth-chamber branch, and reset the jump drive branch in the reactor tree.

Works like a charm and I only need one reactor to drive around quickly. And when it comes to combat I just reconfigure my chamber branches by activating and deactivating the top chambers of the suitable trees.

 

[Nauvran]

Lol you just got a warning. Praise the devs!

Back on topic, i still miss that shooting somones warp drive would reset it's charge :3

oh no this post is off topic, we better remove it! or well half of it, right JinM ??
guess this post should get deleted too then, ironic

 

[Dire Venom]

oh no this post is off topic, we better remove it! or well half of it, right JinM ??
guess this post should get deleted too then, ironic

Or just delete the whole dock, most of it's off topic anyway :P
Also, for some reason a number of players require mod approval for each post they make.
Considering these are 2+ year vets it seems a bit odd

 

[Maramonster]

I think part of the issue is the general limits of Chambers. You only get so many, and with no way to interact with them outside of a menu, certain choices rise well above the rest. Given the fact that you have to swap reactors, or spend time playing Scotty-cum-Accountant in order to swap everything, I think if we could toggle chambers with logic, it might help.

 

[Nauvran]

Or just delete the whole dock, most of it's off topic anyway :P
Also, for some reason a number of players require mod approval for each post they make.
Considering these are 2+ year vets it seems a bit odd

 

[Dvaren]

Now you are either stuck with a very weak Jumpdrive, or you have to spend your limited reactor points on making the Charge time bearable -_-

And if you do expend the RP to make it bearable, have fun watching watching your power consumption spike through the roof.....
[doublepost=1518294588,1518292913][/doublepost]

Chain Drives can break with each update changing a related mechanic, for example rail rotators.

In a game renowned for changing mechanics that break entire fleets of ships and networks of stations....you present the argument that a single small block count system may be theoretically negatively impacted by changes....therefore said system should be disallowed.

2. Chain drives were the most unintuitive part of Starmade. You had to read a lot to manufacture one yourself.

God help us all if anyone is required to read a bit to understand mildly "complex" systems. Should not everything be handed out immediately?! Sheesh!

I am playing Starmade for over a year and still didn't bother to spend this wasted hour into learning how to build one.

Of course you didn't.

Did you ever build one yourself? I guess not. Because they are a too complicated game element

Yes. I've built a plethora of them. None have been cut and paste as all are custom to the ship they are installed to. They are only complicated to those who refuse to learn the simple mechanics they rely on. Preparing scrambled eggs is complicated to any who refuse to learn even the basics of cooking.

Just go around and ask how big the percentage of players is, that pasted jump drives in from the CC or friends, instead of building the complex logic by themself.

So what you are saying is that the players that had no inclination to learn the system for themselves could simply ask for it or copy it from elsewhere and perform none of the work necessary to design these systems to enjoy their benefits? That does seem rather harsh! Having to ask for something or simply find it for yourself on the internet is much more demanding than having it handed to you automatically to be sure!

Additionally moving around quickly should be easily accessible early on for everyone, as it is a basic reward.

So true. It is unprecedented in gaming history that movement buffs be rewards for time and effort expended. They are usually handed to players upon initial login. Starmade made the additional mistake of actually making those rewards accessible immediately, but only after the completely unreasonable expectation that a player ask another player or copy it from the internet. Not everyone playing Starmade has internet access!

It's just basic comfortability that shouldn't be restricted with a tedious outside of the game "knowledge quest"

Amen brother. Knowledge should never have to be sought after. Where has that ever gotten anyone?!

Moving around quickly isn't a big reward that justifies such a complicated artificial "study tutorials on youtube quest".

It was such a small reward, in fact, that I was flabbergasted when I noticed that nearly every player, both new and old, seemed to be employing this unattainable technology! What did they all hope to gain!? Oh, my, the futility of it all!

Other game elements, like building a powerfull big ship, should be the real quests to accomplish.

So true, so true. No self respecting ship building engineer would ever waste time with such rudimentary systems as movement.

Chain Drives could be considered as logic bombs and unneccessary perfomance hit.

True. That was actually problematic, if not (likely) easily addressable.

 

[JinM]

God help us all if anyone is required to read a bit to understand mildly "complex" systems. Should not everything be handed out immediately?! Sheesh!

I think the interest of the the many, to access a basic neccessity of fast travel without having to study logic for 150 hours, outweights the interest of the few, to feel good about their engineering skills.

When have you built your own first chain drive by yourself (not pasting it from the CC)? How many hours of Starmade did pass? I don't mean the time you needed to actually learn it, I mean the time from your first Starmade game ever, to the point in time where you actually were able to make one yourself. I am serious about this question, please try to recall it.

And if, for some strange reason, this question doesn't apply to you, just by so friendly taking a guess for how long other players need to play Starmade, until they would built their first chain drive by themself.

 

[Nosajimiki]

^ Mostly agree, but I would like to add the following points:

1. Learning how to make things like chain drives is like leveling up. This game does not assign players abilities like "level-7 propulsion engineering", instead, you had to learn how to make better propulsion systems. An experienced builder could do more in this game, and less experienced builders had something to strive for. Perfect example: I was getting bored of Starmade nearly a year ago because it felt like I already knew how to do everything in the game... then I fought Veilith, and I realized there was a whole different world of things to explore. Since then, I've never been out of things to test and experiment with. There is no end-game hardcap where you say, "well, I just got the last achievement, time to call it quits". This is why so many ppl were still playing after 4-5 years.
2. No one ever had learn to make a chain drive. Any new player could join any reputable faction and be given a pile of tech that could save them years of RnD, and chain drives were among the most basic of these systems. Or they could get one off the dock, or they could just ask in general chat about them. Many servers had chain drives in their public BPs so you did not even need to leave the game to get one. Many servers even GAVE you a ship the second you started your new account which would have a chain drive in it. On LvD, for example, all you had to do is follow the instructions at spawn to go to the ship vendor and claim your choice of starter ships which all included them.
3. Logic bombing was already fixed long before they removed chain drives. Since jump drives could receive a continuous .5 sec single for nearly the last year, it meant you only needed a basic Delay-Not clock to charge them. "Modern" chain drives used fewer logic pulses than some of the systems of blinking lights or automated airlocks I've designed. The only problem was people still running on old style chain drives.

 

[OfficialCoding]

What's wrong with chain drives? How are they an "exploit?" They never gave anyone an unfair advantage... they just make the game less of a pain-in-the-ass to travel around and thus were good for the game. Not bad.
Why should the galaxy be more tedious and slower to fly around in, and require more clicking and micromanagement to do it? Does it make the game better or more fun or more balanced if it takes longer to travel from A to B and you have to sit around holding the mouse button waiting for your jump drive to manually charge up?

Someone explain this thought process to me.

I think it's because they don't

This multi-reactor system is so wrong.

That's never how it works!

Spaceships sometimes have multiple reactors, but that's because of redundancy and safety! ( One big reactor means one big boom if it's ever ruptured, while if you have several smaller ones, a few can be lost without crippling the ship )

-BUT they tend to be online at the same time! Why'd anyone only turn on just one reactor stack out of a dozen when you could use every bit of extra power? I mean in some situations, sure. Like, we're drifting dead to avoid enemy sensors? Sure, shut down all but one to keep life support sort of on. Half of them took damage? Sure, shut them down before we blow the ship. But all of them working fine? Well ignite them, before that enemy cruiser burns through our shields damnit!

Sure, Schine is free to make their own decisions, but they've just pulled the equivalent of a fantasy writer deciding that the dwarwes in his universe are taller than humans, greener than orcs, and daintier than elves.

Yup. What's the point of multiple reactors, if you can only run one at a time?