Ramming AI help? What happened to it?

[HerrColonel]

Crimson said the IA will try to avoid the target, but what if the entity have no thrust? The IA will only keep the torpedo faced to the ennemy and cannot alter the torpedo's course, right? So with push loop it should hit any immobile target, and some slow ones, right?

I bet with a high pushthrust/mass ratio we can make them very scary

Thanks for pics and explainations

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Crimson said the IA will try to avoid the target, but what if the entity have no thrust? The IA will only keep the torpedo faced to the ennemy and cannot alter the torpedo's course, right? So with push loop it should hit any immobile target, and some slow ones, right?

I bet with a high pushthrust/mass ratio we can make them very scary

Thanks for pics and explainations

theres a ton of factors that go into how successful a torpedo will be. Alot of it has to do with the drones angle of attack. realistically you'll never encounter a enemy ship suddenly appearing close to you and is immobile. When i said that its trying to avoid a collision what i meant to say was the AI has no control over its propulsion but it does have control over its tracking. I've done many hours of testing (For a ship i hope to release soon) and i've found that the AI is basically drifting around its target because its actually tracking it too well and causing incredibly sharp turns.

the best i've been able to do it make it heavier, increased the length between push bursts and artificially dampen its turning speed (by adding opened plex doors far off the sides of the ship) but that just slows it down, making more of a target. after a while it became some what of a catch 22.

Make it smaller and faster= able to hit a target if its standing still/more likely to drift around it if it misses
Make it Bigger and slower= can more reliably hit a moving target but becomes more of a target since its slower

If your target is essentially the broadside of a barn then this is will work out perfectly. but for smaller and faster ships it wont be very useful.

 

[Dire Badger]

Who makes a terminally-guided munition for blowing up fighters? It's a waste.

But for a capship, this looks like it has outstanding potential. especially if you can place a reasonably-damaging one on a mount on a 'bomber' type craft.

Maybe once modding takes off, someone will mod in a 'torpedo box' that has better tracking ability in a single cube. but this will certainly have a good chance to make smaller craft vs. capships more interesting!

 

[Plazmatic]

theres a ton of factors that go into how successful a torpedo will be. Alot of it has to do with the drones angle of attack. realistically you'll never encounter a enemy ship suddenly appearing close to you and is immobile. When i said that its trying to avoid a collision what i meant to say was the AI has no control over its propulsion but it does have control over its tracking. I've done many hours of testing (For a ship i hope to release soon) and i've found that the AI is basically drifting around its target because its actually tracking it too well and causing incredibly sharp turns.

the best i've been able to do it make it heavier, increased the length between push bursts and artificially dampen its turning speed (by adding opened plex doors far off the sides of the ship) but that just slows it down, making more of a target. after a while it became some what of a catch 22.

Make it smaller and faster= able to hit a target if its standing still/more likely to drift around it if it misses
Make it Bigger and slower= can more reliably hit a moving target but becomes more of a target since its slower

If your target is essentially the broadside of a barn then this is will work out perfectly. but for smaller and faster ships it wont be very useful.

If you use overdrive effects you're max speed is doubled and push effects can make your warhead reach these speeds, I've found that in most situations this will catch even some smaller targets. I also put shields on my warhead so that they can't be shot down before they've actually hit the target, and since their so fast they are typically hard to hit, even on default max overdrive speed 100, and impossible to target on 200.

Additionally you will want to put radar jammers on your warheads to stop missiles, ai ships and turrets from locking on to them, making cannons the only semi effective way to deal with warheads.

Unfortunately, warheads are still all but useless due to their strange damage scaling with shields, but if one is able to bring down shields warheads will eat through even adv hull, leaving a sizable chunk in the ship they've been fired at, roughly 8 radius hole was left by a warhead I launched at a chunk of yellow adv hull, and I shudder to think what kind of damage even larger warheads could cause.

 

[Dire Badger]

redacted

 

[Plazmatic]

umm...


I know it's an aside, but for newbies, will putting a radar jammer on your first ship prevent 'random pirate base alpha' deaths three or four sectors away? How could you do that cheaply? I have died dozens of times just mining when out of the blue that big smegging missile resets me, broke and shipless, back at the starting station.

You only need one radar jammer, and it only takes 50 power per 1 mass unit, ten blocks = 1 mass unit, it doesn't take that much power to sustain a radar jammer.

 

[Dire Badger]

You only need one radar jammer, and it only takes 50 power per 1 mass unit, ten blocks = 1 mass unit, it doesn't take that much power to sustain a radar jammer.

Thanks. You might have just made my life a lot easier

 

[Crimson-Artist]

If you use overdrive effects you're max speed is doubled and push effects can make your warhead reach these speeds, I've found that in most situations this will catch even some smaller targets. I also put shields on my warhead so that they can't be shot down before they've actually hit the target, and since their so fast they are typically hard to hit, even on default max overdrive speed 100, and impossible to target on 200.

Additionally you will want to put radar jammers on your warheads to stop missiles, ai ships and turrets from locking on to them, making cannons the only semi effective way to deal with warheads.

Unfortunately, warheads are still all but useless due to their strange damage scaling with shields, but if one is able to bring down shields warheads will eat through even adv hull, leaving a sizable chunk in the ship they've been fired at, roughly 8 radius hole was left by a warhead I launched at a chunk of yellow adv hull, and I shudder to think what kind of damage even larger warheads could cause.

again the problem is the way the AI handles. different load outs may help increase its hit rate but ultimately it boils down to the fact that in a real combat situation (where a target is moving) a torpedo drone will most likely just strafe around a target rather then aim to try and ram in to it.

Also the AI can't use Radar jammers or effects unless you activate then with logic

 

[Plazmatic]

again the problem is the way the AI handles. different load outs may help increase its hit rate but ultimately it boils down to the fact that in a real combat situation (where a target is moving) a torpedo drone will most likely just strafe around a target rather then aim to try and ram in to it.

Also the AI can't use Radar jammers or effects unless you activate then with logic

Torpedo drones wont strafe with sufficient push on moving targets, or at least with torpedos of sufficient size and payload. This has been what I've seen from testing on moving AIs and other players. Additionally the low energy cost of Radar Jammers makes them good for use on AI ships, activating with logic is trivial, alternatively you could just use more shields but the ship becomes more costly.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Torpedo drones wont strafe with sufficient push on moving targets, or at least with torpedos of sufficient size and payload. This has been what I've seen from testing on moving AIs and other players. Additionally the low energy cost of Radar Jammers makes them good for use on AI ships, activating with logic is trivial, alternatively you could just use more shields but the ship becomes more costly.

This is what i mean by strafing.

Its tracking the Isanth but its push thrust is so great that its more likely to circling around it rather then be in a position to score a direct hit. Also the Isanth has thrusters and its trying to avoid the drone at all costs. Ive also tested this on my heavier torpedo drone with similar results. what ive said still stands. The problem is the AI, not the way its designed.

And again I must reiterate that the AI can not use Radar Jammers, Period. they can't be activated with logic either. they only work when a player is occupying a ship that has it so I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Keptick]

theres a ton of factors that go into how successful a torpedo will be. Alot of it has to do with the drones angle of attack. realistically you'll never encounter a enemy ship suddenly appearing close to you and is immobile. When i said that its trying to avoid a collision what i meant to say was the AI has no control over its propulsion but it does have control over its tracking. I've done many hours of testing (For a ship i hope to release soon) and i've found that the AI is basically drifting around its target because its actually tracking it too well and causing incredibly sharp turns.

the best i've been able to do it make it heavier, increased the length between push bursts and artificially dampen its turning speed (by adding opened plex doors far off the sides of the ship) but that just slows it down, making more of a target. after a while it became some what of a catch 22.

Make it smaller and faster= able to hit a target if its standing still/more likely to drift around it if it misses
Make it Bigger and slower= can more reliably hit a moving target but becomes more of a target since its slower

If your target is essentially the broadside of a barn then this is will work out perfectly. but for smaller and faster ships it wont be very useful.

That high speed zipping is perfect for drones, especially since the push effect's clock can be triggered via wireless logic now, it'd make drones outfitted with a push propulsion system really really hard to kill with manual aim.

Time to upgrade the skoomdrone MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Crimson-Artist]

That high speed zipping is perfect for drones, especially since the push effect's clock can be triggered via wireless logic now, it'd make drones outfitted with a push propulsion system really really hard to kill with manual aim.

Time to upgrade the skoomdrone MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

indeed. I've got alot of plans for push drones. I even have a pirate ship designed around that concept thats ready to be released. just want to see if schema will surprise us soon with an update that gives bobby AIs the ability to output a logic signal. Would help fix the problem of an AI ship thats continuously flying forward

 

[Az14el]

I've had light torpedos track quite well, giving them a single thruster, single cannon computer and cannon, and the standard bobby AI, with a mass of 20 not including warhead Payload.

While not able to hit super lights worth a damn, 20-30 meter long fighters and of course anything larger is quite hittable for the bobby AI, even dumb as they are right now, in fact moving targets are better as it wont get stuck "orbiting" if it misses on the first pass. The biggest issue is the relatively poor damage stats on Warheads, meaning to actual kill anything worth shooting a block-costing BP at will require dozens or possibly hundreds of them.

I can up the basic structure of the torp if anybody would like to look, but I'm sure it's been done exactly this way hundreds of times before, as I know at least one other on my server is using the same set up for mass homing mines.

 

[Plazmatic]

This is what i mean by strafing.

Its tracking the Isanth but its push thrust is so great that its more likely to circling around it rather then be in a position to score a direct hit. Also the Isanth has thrusters and its trying to avoid the drone at all costs. Ive also tested this on my heavier torpedo drone with similar results. what ive said still stands. The problem is the AI, not the way its designed.

And again I must reiterate that the AI can not use Radar Jammers, Period. they can't be activated with logic either. they only work when a player is occupying a ship that has it so I have no idea what you're talking about.

I thought you were saying before that you needed to activate it so that's why I thought they would still work, still they don't seem to get targeted if you activate it before hand.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

I thought you were saying before that you needed to activate it so that's why I thought they would still work, still they don't seem to get targeted if you activate it before hand.

They do work. The point i've been trying to make is push torpedoes aren't a viable combat option beyond novelty. Their success greatly depends on things like mass/push, shields, warhead payload, target size/capabilities, etc. The amount of work needed to account for every thing they will try to hit is more trouble then its worth.

Now if your point is create harasser drones that just orbit around your target drawing their fire/turret fire then its extremely practical. keptick has an entire thread dedicated to drone development and probably knows more about them then I do.

 

[Snk]

theres a ton of factors that go into how successful a torpedo will be. Alot of it has to do with the drones angle of attack. realistically you'll never encounter a enemy ship suddenly appearing close to you and is immobile. When i said that its trying to avoid a collision what i meant to say was the AI has no control over its propulsion but it does have control over its tracking. I've done many hours of testing (For a ship i hope to release soon) and i've found that the AI is basically drifting around its target because its actually tracking it too well and causing incredibly sharp turns.

the best i've been able to do it make it heavier, increased the length between push bursts and artificially dampen its turning speed (by adding opened plex doors far off the sides of the ship) but that just slows it down, making more of a target. after a while it became some what of a catch 22.

Make it smaller and faster= able to hit a target if its standing still/more likely to drift around it if it misses
Make it Bigger and slower= can more reliably hit a moving target but becomes more of a target since its slower

If your target is essentially the broadside of a barn then this is will work out perfectly. but for smaller and faster ships it wont be very useful.

Wouldn't giving the AI some thrust negate the problem? It would try and circle the enemy, but at the same time whenever you wanted to you could command it to slam into your target.