Question for schema in post. "Weapon Control Block" proposal.

[rennzen]

First let me just say great game, i love it, really it is amazing and it only being in alpha gives me so much hope for what this game has the potential to become.

Currently the bigger the dimensions of weapon blocks you have the better weapon you have. Or more accurately, the more weapon blocks you have connected to each other, the stronger the weapon. Will this change in the future? Because it is limiting when it comes to having an array of smaller turrets on a battleship. Like a star destroyer for example.

Currently on a big space battleship, arrays of small turrets, or medium turrets that can actually do some dmg aren't aesthetically pleasing and are big and take up alot of space above the hull. I want to have smaller turrets and weapon batteries like on a battleship or star destroyer for example to be viable.

Now as far as i can tell, these smaller turrets will always be completely obsolete to one big block of weapons, and indeed if you want a bunch of lil small AA turrets acrossed your ship like on a star destroyer, they won't do any meaningful and viable damage since they are small, and it will look ugly if you have big blocks of weapons blocks which you then need to add armor to, as a turret on the surface of your ship. Of course this game is in its early stages so i do not know if you plan to change the way the weapon power functions. I had an idea for a block that would make it very simple and would be easy to implement.



The Weapon Control Block (Whatever name you want, just came up with quickly) that beams / links the power of a group of weapon blocks to a turret docking unit and/or weapons computer and/or ship core. (The ship core that is acting as a turret on the surface of your big space battleship)

Now for a more detailed explanation of what this block does.

Lets say you have a big battleship. This Weapon Control block would be underneath the surface of the hull, positioned adjacent to a group of weapon blocks. The weapon control block would give the selected ship-turret on the surface it's weapon power.

The link of this added power would be severed if the turret docking unit, ship-turret's core, weapon computer, or weapon control block were destroyed.



Now i see two options for how this weapon control block connects to a group of weapon blocks, of which i will list them and leave the the choice to you schema. I wrote the above information with option one in mind, which in short is the exact same way as weapon blocks connect to each other.

1) This block can either function just like a weapon block in terms of its connection, that is to say that whatever group of weapon blocks the weapon control block is connected or adjacent it will have selected. I am personally in favor of this option as it is balanced and simple. (same connection system as weaponblocks, allows any dimension of connected weapon block's power to be relayed to the turret on the surface)

2) The weapon control block could have an "area" similar to the docking unit, the blocks inside the area would be the only weapon blocks adding their power to the Ship-turret on the surface of the hull.

(Again the exact way this would work would be up to you obviously, just some suggestions)



So the weapon control block is a simple, completely balanced way to have aesthetically pleasing configurations of turrets that are actually viable.

You could even add this function to a weapon computer. So you would have your first weapon computer like normal, then a second weapon computer that acts just like the "Weapon Control Block" after a "Activate" option is ticked in the weapon computer.



This system has several key and great advantages which i will re-list.

1) Extremely easy to implement. (Since it is the exact same system, just adding a block which allows you to change where the actual dimension of weapon blocks is located at on / in the ship)

2) Immediately Balanced - The only thing changing is where the position of the dimension of weapon blocks is. Which will allow you to have arrays of turrets on your ship like a star destroyer or battleship which can actually do some damage. If the turret on the surface of the hull is destroyed you have lost all the weapon power, since the dimension of weapon blocks doesn't have a connection any longer.

3) Allows more control over the aesthetic of your ship, specifically it's turrets while still having the actual turrets dps / damage be viable.

4) Arrays of turrets (Think battleship / star destroyer) would be viable and balanced with the current big blocks of weapons - since it is the same exact system as you have currently, just changing where the blocks are.

Thank you for reading.

NOTES: 1) Apologies in advanced if this has already been covered in some way or i have missed something

 

[Comr4de]

First point of order, are you saying that weapons blocks aboard the mother ship would be benefiting the turrets? I\'m not sure that\'s possible, at least the way weapons work right now. If I\'m misunderstanding you, please let me know.



Second, did you really post this elsewhere then copy + paste it here? I\'m no mod but I\'m pretty sure that constitutes as spamming.

 

[rennzen]

\"are you saying that weapons blocks aboard the mother ship would be benefiting the turrets?\"

I believe the block is adequately explained in the post. I could be wrong though, and if so point out exactly what lines are not making sense to you so i can update the post.



Yes i did. Two posts isn\'t really spam at all.. Besides, this post was at first a question directed @schema. While writing said question, i conceived an idea for a block that would solve the issue detailed in the original post of this thread.

So this was a question in which i included the info so you wouldn\'t have to open a new window, the other post deals exclusively with the idea i had for the block and is a suggestion to add the block i detail as a feature. It is pretty silly that i am even explaining this to you if i am honest.

 

[Visitor]

Posting one thread in several places is a horrible practice. Right now you have comments by many players strewn around 3 or so threads (at least two copies of one and one closely related) you\'ve made about weapon blocks, with those users being forced to check each thread if they want any discussion and not just repeating other\'s posts. I also would like remind you that for private questiosn you have private message system.

 

[hoangandpaid]

This would be a brilliant addition to the game but instead of having just a crap tonne of weapon blocks, why not have a single block that turns energy into weapon power. that way it doesnt fall to Comr4de\'s description of a failure. it takes the power the ship is already making and uses that for power. if you could set the special block to a specific frequency, then all other blocks such as that block could recieve that frequency, and therefore the power. your entire hull could be filled with power boxes and turns that into the weapon power your turrets request. this idea still needs a bit of work but im just spitballing here. tell me what you think of this Rennzen.

 

[rennzen]

Look, honestly i don\'t feel you have a point. This is a question to schema, as it says in the title.

Of the other two, i will delete one of the other two depending on if a mod asks me to and lets me know which board is more appropriate for the topic or does so by himself. Admittedly the other two posts are duplicates but i don\'t know which is the correct board to post on so i did it twice. Suggestions / and features, what?

Anyways this is the last time i will even address this, it detracts from the discussion when somebody is like \"omg proper forum conudct\"... I can\'t take you seriously if you make a post just to tell me i made an extra one or two posts, it doesn\'t really matter, it is far from a big deal, it isn\'t even a deal and i really don\'t care.

 

[rennzen]

First i would like to say thank you for replying on topic lol.

I don\'t think energy to power would work at all tbh, you can get insane levels of power in small places by building your gens right and it would be easier to work with the current system which requires space as a resource as well, rather then fiddling with or redesigning power and all values and associations to it, which you would need to do to balance it.

It is much easier to simply add on to the current system, which i feel is quite simple and works pretty well. I like the idea of having space as a resource for weapons as well since it ends up balancing the ships a bit better. Besides i feel the real problem is that you can\'t have turrets that store weapon blocks below the hull in like an \"armament\", Ammuntion storage, arms compartment, or \"weapon control\". So on an so forth, you get the idea.

 

[Evar678]

I\'ve noticed there are duplicates of this thread.

Could you please delete the others?

Thanks!

 

[TheGamingWyvern]

I do really like the design, and contrary to Comr4de\'s post, I think it would be possible, especially if schema is planning on making turrets share shields (please correct me if I am wrong).

If turrets can share the shields of the mothership, that means that it can tap into the mothership\'s systems. I doubt it would be much of a leap to have this Weapon Block of yours use something similar to how the shields are shared, just with an array of weapon blocks it is connected to.

 

[rennzen]

Yes it is very easily possible within the game. This entire system is extremely simple.

I believe i explained it clearly but this this thread could benefit by a step-by-step so here it goes. (It is VERY simple, really)

You have a battleship, you have a turret docking unit on or in the surface of it\'s hull. You have a small turret-ship on said docking unit docked. You have a 5x5x5 solid cube of weapon blocks in the interior of the ship. It doesn\'t matter where this 5x5x5 solid cube of weapon blocks is as long as it is connected to your ship.

Now you take out one block from the 5x5x5 solid cube of weapon blocks. You then select the weapons computer for your docked ship-turret. You then put the weapon control block in the block you removed the 5x5x5 solid cube of weapon blocks.

That 5x5x5 block of weapons power is now added to the ship-turret. Now the caveat is if the turret docking unit, ship-turrets core, weapon computer, or weapon control block, is destroyed - the \"link\" is no longer possible (obviously) and so you will now only have the power of the actual turret.

you could even throw in the power beam block currently in game to spice it up further, acting as a power beam (It would beam, not wire, not going to explain this as it should be obvious).

Now keep in mind this entire function of this block could just be added to a second weapon computer instead, which is fine with me, i don\'t care, i just want the weapon control block would provides.

The Weapon Control Block could also be used as a hub for various weapon options, such as a \"delay effect\" in the array of weapons. This would create a gatling gun effect for anti-matter cannons, or a salvo effect for missile launchers.



My ship has 20,000 shields and 2000 Sps and it isn\'t even optimized, turrets need more of a punch while maintaining a level of aesthetic\'s to them.



Honestly i will just mod it in myself eventually but i think it is a perfect fit for vanilla and it is relatively simple anyway so i would like it included. there really isn\'t any drawbacks to this.

 

[rennzen]

EDIT: I have deleted both and made this clear as both a question and suggestion for a block.

 

[rennzen]

Note: I updated the post you are replying to with more information.

Yes it is very simple. As to turrets sharing shields, it would be possible to connect a block of shields to a turret as well with this.

I don\'t know what schema plans to do about shields being shared with turrets but i imagine he wants to make it automatic and tied to the main ship.

I think we should keep in mind that turrets should have some limitations to the shields they can recieve from the main ship, you should be able to effectively engage and destroy turrets or cripple them and with the shield numbers currently, turrets recieving 100% shields would be kind of rediculous. I would personally let the turrets recieve 1-100% base shields weighted against how much shield and SPS you have. Higher shield reserve and SPS you have, the lower the % the turret recieves until 10%.

The max shields you can have is something like 4,000,000+ shield reserve, i don\'t even know what the SPS would be, stupidly rediculous no doubt. 1% of that is 40,000. For a turret that is rediculous enough lol. For a massive ship like that one, it might make sense to go even lower to like .1% shields recieved. A collosal ship like that would only be destroyed by another collosal ship, that could out dps it\'s shields, which would be a huuuuggeee gun. But if you can\'t destroy it you should at least be able to cripple it\'s turrets.

(Now obviously massive ships are rare but it should be balanced at all scales, of course)

 

[Lyle_Shnub]

Why not just have different ranks of weapon blocks that function the same way except are worth more of the basic block?



Example:

• Current Anti-Matter Cannon x5 = Lv. 2 Anti-Matter Cannon x1
• Current Anti-Matter Cannon x25 = Lv. 2 Anti-Matter Cannon x5 = Lv. 3 Anti-Matter Cannon x1

This could easily work with any other sort of block too, right? I mean, it\'s already sort of in the game in the form of standard hulls vs. hardened hulls. Also, higher tiers should cost more than getting a bunch of lower tiers that provide the same power being as you\'re also paying for saved space.

 

[Comr4de]

I sincerely hope schema /doesn\'t/ plan on making turrets share shields. The way turrets work right now makes them a weak point for larger capital ships, and allows smaller strike ships to engage them effectively. Allowing shields to extend around turrets would further imbalance combat and lend itself to gigantism in construction.



On that note, I do highly wish this was a thing. Despite whatever message you got from my first post, I\'ve got a few ships of my own that would highly benefit from this idea.

 

[rennzen]

Again, i don\'t know what schema has planned. This system was conceived with the current system in mind and as such it is easy to do and doesn\'t require a redesign of the entire game which what you are saying would likely entail. Besides, 3 weapon blocks together = tier whatever weapon.

You now have tier 3 weapons, what\'s next tier 3 shields, jammers, hull etc? That gets to be alot of work quickly. Tiered blocks would quickly get rediculous in terms of damage numbers and so forth, so realistically you would only be able to go to like tier 3 or something. Imagine a block of 100 Tier 3 cannons vs a block of 100 t1 or regular cannons, the difference in power would be stupid.

This system is simple and fast as it is only a tweak to the current system. Having the actual space the weapon blocks occupy within the ship as a resource is amazingly benefical for the balance, economy, ship planning, and so on. For example, the less weapon blocks you need in your ship, the more you can put into shields and so on which messes up balance even more. Besides it would be kind of cool to have a \"munitions room\" in the ship.

 

[rennzen]

It is no problem dude, i benefitted from your post tbh, i redid the majority of the post to make it easier to follow, i hope. I could make a video showing exactly what i mean and it would be simple to do so but if there isn\'t any actual interest from the DEV then i think of it as a waste of my time.

Like i said though, i can always just mod this in on my own later, but i really believe this would be a huge benefit to vanilla. Of course there are a ton of things that would be a huge benefit to vanilla, this game has sooooo much potential that i am just too excited.

 

[Lyle_Shnub]

I don\'t think my idea is very much work at all and certainly wouldn\'t require a total redesign of the game. Just give separate textures to blocks like thrusters and AM-cannons and then pallette swap for the various ranks. As for the numbers, it\'s just simple multiplication to get the numbers scaling higher.

I also don\'t know why you\'re taking my example so literally. The value of a tier 2 block doesn\'t have to be 5 of the original. It could be worth 2, 10, or whatever. As for having ridiculously high numbers, that\'s not an issue with my idea, that\'s something else entirely. There\'s already people going around with oodles of weapon damage and shields that would totally annihilate anything small. Your own idea isn\'t safe from this \"flaw\" either.

Heck, both of our ideas could be implemented without either interfering with the other. From what I can tell, what you\'re suggesting just essentially moves large amounts of blocks to other locations separate from their output block. IE: A single AM-cannon on the front of a ship could be the output for a large collection of AM-cannons elsewhere on the ship. My idea simply reduces the physical amount of blocks in said collection.

 

[Visitor]

You\'ve made a post in the public forum, open to scrutiny as well as made most of it a suggestion, which I believe a community should have a say about. Also, my suggestion regarding conduct was also for your own benefit - really, for main point of your thread, you should contact Schema directly - that\'s what PMs are for. It\'ll make it far easier for him to tend to you and answer. No need to get angry about it.

In regards to idea itself I\'ve made a post in one of your other threads about this subject (that\'s why a statement that spreading one idea over several different threads makes it harder for any discussion - your assumption proves I was right).

 

[rennzen]

-\"I don\'t think my idea is very much work at all\"

Yes, it would in fact require alot of work. You are creating a new block, or adding block data to existing blocks for every single applicable block. 3 tiers for 4 weapons, 12 textures you have to palette swap. Oh now people are complaining about all the palette swapped textures as being bland and unappealing copy past jobs. looks like we are going to have to re-do those some time. You are going to have to do shields, hull, etc. How many hull pieces are there? lol.. All the descriptions and text entry for all the items. It goes on and on, god knows what i am forgetting.



-\"As for the numbers, it\'s just simple multiplication to get the numbers scaling higher.\"

The entire game is balanced around the current weapons stats, you can\'t just dole out \"simple multipication\" at the weapon value\'s without throwing other\'s in wack. All the hull\'s, shields, etc are balanced around this. You would then need tier 2 for shields, hull, etc. Does the weapon block take more power? Are we adding more tiered power blocks?

All the while the available space in my ship just keeps getting bigger and bigger unless we are adding more things to fill it or messing with power values which means more work.. I mean you are obviously not really thinking it through. You have to also take into account the way weapon blocks power increases when adjacent, the weight\'s of the stats that increase and how the values change when you add points to the stats in the stat menu.



-\"As for having ridiculously high numbers, that\'s not an issue with my idea, that\'s something else entirely.\"

No, it very much is an issue with your idea that you are not taking into account. Unless you increase other values. Which means more work, testing, etc.



-\"There\'s already people going around with oodles of weapon damage and shields that would totally annihilate anything small.\"

Yes, and? Let\'s make them even more powerful by taking up less space in the ship where they can put more blocks! We aren\'t really solving that problem at all, we are just multiplying everything by 2! Great! Also they will have acess to those tier 2 while a noob will only have access to tier 1 which means they get like 4x the fucked.

The reason why i love the current system so much is because you have to use the space as if it were a resource. Of course in legitimate servers giant ship\'s will not be an issue as people will actually have to work to earn them, and if they finally reach a giant legitimate ship then they deserve to one shot in their titan. But let\'s not make the titan\'s even more powerful.



-\"Your own idea isn\'t safe from this \"flaw\" either.\"

Nothing will be completely flawless, but the only real flaw i see here is including tiered blocks instead of a simple change.. I even talked about potential limiting factors including using the energy beamers already in the game to beam energy around the ship, and also have the weapon control block have an area similar to a turret docking unit to limit the power. You can destroy the turret docking unit, weapons computer, or the beam flow and the turret would stop working. That\'s a ton of checks in place already.

I honestly don\'t care how he does it, but i definitely don\'t want him to change the current weapon values or amount of blocks or anything like that as i know that it isn\'t that simple, and i also quite like the way it is now. I just want to move the bulk under the hull so i can have smaller turrets that look aesthetically pleasing while remaining viable.



-\"simply reduces the physical amount of blocks in said collection.\"

Which is the biggest problem, and i cannot disagree with the reduction in the amount or tiered blocks enough. The current system, while nothing is perfect, is fine the way it is and it is precisely because it takes so much space that it is so great. My idea is more of a aesthetic change then anything.

 

[Lyle_Shnub]

Okay, I\'m assuming you\'ve played Minecraft and know how simple it is to create new blocks, no? Well, StarMade uses the same system for texturing blocks. It\'s pretty easy. It\'s also easy to take existing block properties and just scale them upwards. It\'s not creating any new mechanics or anything - just copy/pasting code and scaling. Also dude, I don\'t know if you knew this, but there\'s already plenty of blocks in the game that just palette swaps (ie: AM-cannons and thrusters as I mentioned) and there\'s plenty of block descriptions that are just copy/paste (ie: the hulls you mentioned).

Yes, all stat giving blocks would scale upwards as well. I figured this was obvious, evidently not. The brilliant part about multiplication is that it lets you scale everything up from its base value. If the base is balanced fine, then the higher tiers should work just as well.

I\'ve yet to reach any sort of ship size limit yet and I\'ve made one with a block count close to 20k. So, thinking of space as a resource isn\'t exactly relevant being as we can make absolutely massive ships. Perhaps if there were a negative a effect to having high mass ships other than reduced turning speed, then we could think of space as being finite. Unless you mean there\'s a finite number of rooms on your ship you can fill with junk. However, that\'s the price of using hull on your ship. As it stands the most statistically efficient ships will have shields where hull is. Practically speaking, hull is basically useless.

Adding tiers would mean that smaller ships within a tier should be able to compete with larger ships of the same tier. As it stands, bigger is better, and there\'s no way a small ship could ever take down a large one due to the way shields currently function. If the smaller ship builds and gets bigger, well, so can the large ships. There\'s currently no getting around that. Right now, money is extremely easy to get if you\'ve got a half-decent salvage setup. Think of it as a snowball effect, the richer you are, the faster you can accumulate wealth until you hit some sort of critical mass in terms of ship parameters where you\'re chewing through planets and space stations in seconds. If anything, the game needs more moneysinks and I believe that expensive, tiered blocks is a solution.

You do realize if place a power limiter on your idea, you\'re back where you started, right? Eventually your turrets will hit that limit while enemy shields continue scaling upwards as they continue adding shield blocks to their ship. Your turrets will once again become useless. As for destroying weapons computers and whatnot, did you know that this same argument also applies to my idea being as tiered weapons would still require computers to run them? Checks exist for tiered blocks as well because it\'s the exact same system as before, only with higher numbers across the board.

My idea is also an aesthetic change. It reduces the amount of blocks necessary in a ship for it to perform at X level. I have absolutely no idea why you\'re so very against tiered blocks, especially since it wouldn\'t interfere with your own. It adds ship progression and gives viability to smaller fighters and stealth ships.