Power Generation and Gameplay Possibility

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    I made a post on the subreddit a long time ago, but a duplication had both removed, and I was never able to get the original re-implemented.

    To but this bluntly, and to let everyone know, this isn't going to be everyone's favorite option, but I feel it might kill two birds with one stone.

    The first problem with the game is "gameplay", or rather the lack of a need to do anything other than mine and build. Putting aside the major trade, mining, and combat problems. There is one gameplay mechanic which many people overlook because they don't want to "complicate" matters, that mechanic is "Fuel"....I know, I know, a lot of you are already rushing to the comments to refute the idea just from this point in the suggestion, but please read on.

    My idea is quite simple, Tiered Reactors, similar to something like Buildcraft or Thermal Expansion for Tekkit. The idea is basically to have a Tier 0 reactor (similar to redstone reactor) in which fuel is not consumed, but instead generates a very very low amount of power, and work up to something in the Tier 11 range, with sub reactors in each, for example, a Tier 5 Reactor with a special modification or fuel, could be turned into a Tier 5-A reactor with sub reactors of A, B, and C.

    The Even Reactors would be powerful but inefficient and wasteful of fuel, the Odd Reactor numbers would be more efficient, but produce slightly less power without modifications. All tiers would have special recipe requirements, both in volume of materials, and types of materials.

    the higher the tier would mean more materials, or rarer materials. But it would also mean different fuel requirements, which brings me onto another option, Fuel, Fuel is a touchy subject to a lot of people, namely because a lot of people don't want to believe their designs in a sub-alpha game should become obsolete. But Fuel would give a survival element to the game, and provide a resource which is finite or very slow to produce.

    The fuel ideas are as followed with their reactor compatibility.

    -Helium///Tier 1-4 Efficiency is low, but production is high.

    -Hydrogen N31///Tier 3,5,6 This is harvested from stars quickly, but dangerous if storage is ruptured. it damages the reactors it is used in, and will damage storage, not recomended for long time use.

    -Uranium XN335///Tier 7, 10 This is unlike Uranium 235, instead of a standard rate of efficient fission reactions, this consumes the uranium, however it is very unstable, and is not recommended for mobile vessels.

    -Fused Energized Crystal///Tier 8,9,11 This is a rarer but vastly more stable source of energy, it is essentially the energy produced by a fusion reaction frozen into a solid form through a process unknown to us (but not to some ancient race, finding derelict facilities will allow people to loot this as well) But can also be abundant if found in old derelict stations or very much rarer roids in the outer systems.

    -
    Hydramatter/// Tier 10 and 11 This is one of the most powerful substances in the galaxy, and the only fuel source capable of being made INTO a weapon. It is HIGHLY FRIKIN UNSTABLE to the point of being able to destroy a planet in its production. This is only recommended for heavily defended stations.

    -
    Antimatter/// Tier 11 This is the only high level fuel source able to be made in any location, but requires an equal amount of matter to match its output (ex 100 tekkt per 100 antimatter, takes up fuel space but is easily produced).

    -Sholomatter/// Tier 10-C and 11-C This is the only "Stable" fuel source in high tiers, but its production is long and difficult. Instead of requiring large amounts of sacrificial matter like Antimatter, it needs only a single dense element to keep it from diminishing its output.


    Those are just the standard fuel sources, there are variants, such as Dark Matter, a difficult to produce and unpredictable fuel source, Ulta Particles, an element with many unknown properties but is used primarily to create a stable singularity to be contained in a "Tier 11-C Neutron Reactor" the only reactor strong enough to contain the singularity itself, The reactor is also very difficult to produce.

    Other sources like Crystals and Even tapping into stars for stations to keep themselves powered but extremely high maintenance (needs many repairs etc). Eventually the very last tier should be Zero Point Power Sources, extremely resource and energy intensive, and would require special blocks or structures to utilize/produce.

    The reason for the oddly paired reactor tiers above, is because of their composition, denser materials and less reactive materials compose the reactors, and color coding should be used to reflect that for ease of learning.

    Each fuel source requires storage, which would act similarly to cargo space but would require a top and bottom "cap" if you will, damage to these fuel storage units would deplete the fuel slowly for less reactive fuels, or utterly decimate the blocks around them for more reactive fuels.

    The idea for the Tier 0 reactors, is also to allow for smaller vessels to use them without need for refueling, but be pointless for much else, they can't recharge Auxiliary power, but they can be complimented by it, refueling auxiliary would require docking at a larger entity.

    The number of reactors is dependent on your fuel limits, and your available space, you can try to cram many into a set space, but would ultimately run out of fuel quicker, and risk damage to fuel storage.

    I'm hoping this can somewhat alleviate some issues. or at least provide solutions for some of the problems.

    There are other details I might have neglected to add, please point them out.
     
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    I really like the idea of consumable fuel, especially if fuel has such diversity. It can encourage players to explore and interact with each other.

    However, it has its downsides, such as fuel management. Supplying your entire fleet with fuel can be a great pain. And supplying is not enough - you must always check how much fuel they have, or you can one day find that large part of your fleet was lost.
     
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    Gonna have to say no to this, sorry, at least you where honest with it being unpopular. I really dont want to worry about fuel or ammo, this is great for people who like to RP, but very limiting just about everywhere else.

    Th problem with fuel isnt what you stated, its that for me at least, i hate micromanaging, and i really dont like the sims either, there is quite a reason ive put more time into this game "Survival"(which isnt that hard) over minecraft for example. I dont *mind* having to harvest tons of materials to build any ship(probably if i where to join a faction, is what id do anyways), i do however, hate having to harvest things to continue to do the thing i enjoy doing. In minecraft thats building castles, here it would be the same thing but with spaceships.
    Sorry im not to elegant with my words, im a bit tired and doing my best to stay awake.
    One thing i do like about this post however, is tiered reactors. It would be nice to have different tiers of all the power systems(say tier 1 2 and 3) and each one weighs differently, and provides different maximum bonuses depending on grouping etc.
     

    NeonSturm

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    I really like the idea of consumable fuel, especially if fuel has such diversity. It can encourage players to explore and interact with each other.

    However, it has its downsides, such as fuel management. Supplying your entire fleet with fuel can be a great pain. And supplying is not enough - you must always check how much fuel they have, or you can one day find that large part of your fleet was lost.
    I short: Fuel has the same pro/cons as warheads.

    It is nice to have fuel as ammo (boosting power during combat) or for over-driving your exploration vessel's engines.
    But you should be able to regenerate fuel on ships with "free energy" which is sufficient to reach the next trade station or star.

    I think finally, it's gonna be a server-option anyway.
     
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    I really like the idea of consumable fuel, especially if fuel has such diversity. It can encourage players to explore and interact with each other.

    However, it has its downsides, such as fuel management. Supplying your entire fleet with fuel can be a great pain. And supplying is not enough - you must always check how much fuel they have, or you can one day find that large part of your fleet was lost.
    The other problem with this is the AI obviously, hopefully there would be improvements in the future.

    But I'd like to think that if you have a fleet, and include a flagship with refuel properties, you could set a warning system for your fleet, when they reach a certain fuel amount, they dock with the flagship to refuel or to dock if the flagship has no fuel to spare, and you can also dictate a limit to how much fuel your flagship can give to the fleet, so you have a safe buffer.

    Gonna have to say no to this, sorry, at least you where honest with it being unpopular. I really dont want to worry about fuel or ammo, this is great for people who like to RP, but very limiting just about everywhere else.

    Th problem with fuel isnt what you stated, its that for me at least, i hate micromanaging, and i really dont like the sims either, there is quite a reason ive put more time into this game "Survival"(which isnt that hard) over minecraft for example. I dont *mind* having to harvest tons of materials to build any ship(probably if i where to join a faction, is what id do anyways), i do however, hate having to harvest things to continue to do the thing i enjoy doing. In minecraft thats building castles, here it would be the same thing but with spaceships.
    Sorry im not to elegant with my words, im a bit tired and doing my best to stay awake.
    One thing i do like about this post however, is tiered reactors. It would be nice to have different tiers of all the power systems(say tier 1 2 and 3) and each one weighs differently, and provides different maximum bonuses depending on grouping etc.
    I understand that you basically want a low key Survival mode,

    Mutli Tiered reactors could be split into the Creative and Easy Survival modes, without the fuel requirement, but for basic and advanced survival modes, I'd like to see a REASON to fight, a reason to keep my ships going. Since there is no hunger, there should be fuel.
     
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    The other problem with this is the AI obviously, hopefully there would be improvements in the future.

    But I'd like to think that if you have a fleet, and include a flagship with refuel properties, you could set a warning system for your fleet, when they reach a certain fuel amount, they dock with the flagship to refuel or to dock if the flagship has no fuel to spare, and you can also dictate a limit to how much fuel your flagship can give to the fleet, so you have a safe buffer.
    Ofc there can be ways to automatize this management. However there still can be problems.

    Overall it's nice idea, it will be interesting to see various fuel types in the future.
    Moreover, this idea can be implemented without many problems almost in any power system design, such as official proposed one, my flexible design, or Kimiro's Volumetric one.
     
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    Mutli Tiered reactors could be split into the Creative and Easy Survival modes, without the fuel requirement, but for basic and advanced survival modes, I'd like to see a REASON to fight, a reason to keep my ships going. Since there is no hunger, there should be fuel.
    not even low key. It could be hard as ever(please i *LOVE* building a base next to a pirate base and just seeing *how* long i can survive, or even win) I just dont want *this* kind of difficulty as well, i want actual challenges, not resource micro management which is how i will always view fuel and ammo.
    Even with fuel i dont think youd have that reason. I truthfully believe asteroids should be more scarce, yes it would get aggravating, but it would at least allow for a trade system to work.
     
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    not even low key. It could be hard as ever(please i *LOVE* building a base next to a pirate base and just seeing *how* long i can survive, or even win) I just dont want *this* kind of difficulty as well, i want actual challenges, not resource micro management which is how i will always view fuel and ammo.
    Even with fuel i dont think youd have that reason. I truthfully believe asteroids should be more scarce, yes it would get aggravating, but it would at least allow for a trade system to work.
    Ah I see, you don't want survival difficulty, you want more of a task difficulty, or a "Last Stand" form of difficulty.

    Survival isn't something where you get to a point and just stay at that point, it's constantly keeping yourself maintained IE food, water, health etc, only in starmade's case, you've got nothing other than some braindead NPC's, fuel would rectify this for the normal to dangerous survival levels.
     
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    Ah I see, you don't want survival difficulty, you want more of a task difficulty, or a "Last Stand" form of difficulty.

    Survival isn't something where you get to a point and just stay at that point, it's constantly keeping yourself maintained IE food, water, health etc, only in starmade's case, you've got nothing other than some braindead NPC's, fuel would rectify this for the normal to dangerous survival levels.
    So would food and water(which i wouldnt mind) but ill always be against fuel. Food and water be interesting to have in this game, as it would also give another use for storage containers(and when it came to pvp servers, both settings(fuel if it was added(which i swear shine has said no to at least once)and food/water), could be turned off in the configs.)
     
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    I am pro-fuel if the game will provide a way to help ease the logistics of keeping your fleets fueled. Perhaps a way to use crew to help refine and store fuel, and make fleets smart enough to return to a friendly refueling base when needed, as well as a "limp mode" which allows starships to continue traveling at a very slow pace if they happen to completely run out of fuel.

    I don't like micromanaging, but I do like logistics. I'd hate to have to individually track all my ships and monitor their fuel and get them resupplied. But I would enjoy the effort of finding new fuel sources, strategically placing fuel depots and refineries, and watching the ships take care of the rest on their own.
     

    Lone_Puppy

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    resource micro management which is how i will always view fuel and ammo
    Interesting you bring up micro management. That's a really interesting point you make there.
    This will give me lots to think about. ;)

    Lockerd, I like your ideas for Tier'd fuel systems. It would be good to also add byproduct, waste and management systems for that these. You could have blocks or systems that can only be fabricated using the byproducts or waste coming from fuel reactions. :)
     

    Lecic

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    The idea is basically to have a Tier 0 reactor (similar to redstone reactor) in which fuel is not consumed, but instead generates a very very low amount of power, and work up to something in the Tier 11 range, with sub reactors in each, for example, a Tier 5 Reactor with a special modification or fuel, could be turned into a Tier 5-A reactor with sub reactors of A, B, and C.
    Right off the bat, you're suggesting 48 (0-11, X-A-B-C) different kinds of reactors. This sounds like an absolute balancing nightmare with pointlessly high levels of complexity.

    The Even Reactors would be powerful but inefficient and wasteful of fuel, the Odd Reactor numbers would be more efficient, but produce slightly less power without modifications.
    Arbitrary as fuck. Terrible idea. Why do you need 5 and 6 different reactors (plus the 4 variants for each of those different reactors) for what would at most require 3 different reactors- fuelless low power, inefficient high power, efficient low power? Why do you need 48 different reactor types when it can be accomplished in 3?

    -Helium
    -Hydrogen N31
    -Uranium XN335
    -Antimatter
    Dark Matter
    The devs have stated previously that they want to avoid having functional resources use real life names to avoid complaints about these resources not doing what they do IRL. Also, why do we need NINE FUEL TYPES? That is complexity for the sake of complexity. It would do nothing but make the game work.

    The idea for the Tier 0 reactors, is also to allow for smaller vessels to use them without need for refueling, but be pointless for much else, they can't recharge Auxiliary power, but they can be complimented by it, refueling auxiliary would require docking at a larger entity.
    So power auxiliaries are just worse power capacitors in your suggestion?

    Could fuel, maybe, possibly work in this game? Maybe. Is this the way to implement it well? Absolutely fucking not.
    I haven't played the technic-style packs for Minecraft in well over two years, but from what I remember, this feels like it was ripped straight from them, with the shit tier balancing and pointless overcomplication with useless sidegrade and psuedoscience bullshit nonsense names and all. I absolutely do not want that kind of trash in this game, ever.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Can I -for example- turn a iron-cable into a copper-cable by laying it out differently?
    For iron to transfer the same amount of electrical energy, you always need more mass.

    Right now:schema:aims to solve everything through layout design (how you place your blocks), but for the sake of teaching some real-life important stuff to kids playing SM, a little bit of "tech" could be useful - but we need not new blocks for this.

    (for example) If cannon slaves could work as beams when slaved to a beam computer, but do that less efficiently, it's a bit like using an iron cable instead of a copper cable and because they use different materials, you might build such scrap ships as a scavenger which doesn't mine mats himself.
    But it's just an example - it can be different blocks not necessarily cannon/beam slaves.