Pirates VS Griefers

[Croquelune]

Allright Nauvran you reassured me. By exploits I thought about some really serious stuff, not meta imbalances.

Peoples considering docked reactors/shields as exploits just didn't understand what the word exploit truly means ; and are probably too stupid or conservative to adapt their designs with that new unbalanced meta.
When something work well usually people catch it and keep it, but when it doesn't work anymore you have two kind of people:

1. those who go on and adapt themselves to the new things (so realease the old stuff and try find another ways)
   
2. those whose whining about X been nerfed and Y broken (still sticking about the obsolete thing and bitching about all new ruling ways)

I'm part of n°1 so I just deal with it, even if I admit docked entities lead to some imbalances.

 

[Erth Paradine]

On joining a MP server & following it's rules.

-I would never inflict my Noobness on MP players unless I made some effort to learn the basics in SP and researched it a bit. I feel that for SM it is inappropriate to dive right in and expect the community to babysit and hand-hold because I was too lazy to do my homework.

-After a day or two I join a server. I look up the rules of the server on it's forum-thread or website. The posted rules confirm for me that this server has the play-style I am looking for. If I think the rules are unfair I find a different server. The point being; it is MY responsibility to learn and follow the rules. I should not just run around pell-mell and expect my bad behavior to be corrected by the admin (they are here to play & have fun too).

-I should know what is considered griefing on the server and have some idea about prohibited exploits. Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

-I should educate myself about the short-list of Lag-Bombs and avoid them: Planet-Loitering, Collisions, Logic-Bombs etc.

-Asking questions may help form bonds with other players. However...I will avoid playing 20-questions with the people who are so helpful and learn the basic stuff on my own, accepting the necessity of the internet, the SM Dock, YouTube & Wikis.

Beautiful pledge.

...
BUT if a server chooses to bill itself as a "PvP server" or "PvP friendly server" then anything goes outside of exploits (including deliberate server lagging).
...

Really? Well, on that logic, the winning recipe is simply to crap all over the place (e.g. lagoff all players). Which sounds a lot like playing with a pigeon...

 

[Az14el]

To be fair, this thread was way WAY more civil than these discussions usually are.

Spoiler: What I expected going into this

 

[Erth Paradine]

well the problem is that some people see something like docked reactors as exploits. And then there are some exploits that arent really that helpfull anyway.
So as long as it's not an exploit that makes anyone overpowred there shouldnt be a problem, in theory.

My only concern with docked reactors, is when they're shoehorned into a loosely-designed hull; if/when the reactors undock, their clipping causes whole-server lag. After all, how difficult is it, really, to decorate and attach externally.

As for the possible imbalance *shrugs*, in my opinion that's up to the players to deal with: improve your tactics. Just don't ruin the server for everyone in (and not in) your particular battle at the moment...hmm, maybe that last point could be an over-arching rule.

 

[Nauvran]

My only concern with docked reactors, is when they're shoehorned into a loosely-designed hull; if/when the reactors undock, their clipping causes whole-server lag. After all, how difficult is it, really, to decorate and attach externally.

As for the possible imbalance *shrugs*, in my opinion that's up to the players to deal with: improve your tactics. Just don't ruin the server for everyone in (and not in) your particular battle at the moment...hmm, maybe that last point could be an over-arching rule.

I was having some test fights with some people the other day, a reactor got undocked, the server only lagged for about 3-5 seconds and the fight continued as before. It was much worse when they crossed into a new sector or when the game autosaved.

 

[Erth Paradine]

I was having some test fights with some people the other day, a reactor got undocked, the server only lagged for about 3-5 seconds and the fight continued as before. It was much worse when they crossed into a new sector or when the game autosaved.

Maybe this needs more testing on newer releases. In May just one ship, with a very large docked reactor, was able to repeatedly and consistently lagoff all players, as the ship's original pilot repeatedly relogged over a period of hours.

 

[Nauvran]

Maybe this needs more testing on newer releases. In May just one ship, with a very large docked reactor, was able to repeatedly and consistently lagoff all players, as the ship's original pilot repeatedly relogged over a period of hours.

probably something to do with this reactor was clipped

 

[Mortiferum]

Maybe this needs more testing on newer releases. In May just one ship, with a very large docked reactor, was able to repeatedly and consistently lagoff all players, as the ship's original pilot repeatedly relogged over a period of hours.

As long as the ship, or reactor is moving, the lag should be minimal as one thing will "clip" out of the other.

It is when the ships and reactor are still that the tragedy begins.

 

[MacThule]

Really? Well, on that logic, the winning recipe is simply to crap all over the place (e.g. lagoff all players). Which sounds a lot like playing with a pigeon...
View attachment 29325

Salty?

 

[sayerulz]

Salty?

Are you kidding? How can anyone ever possibly think that deliberately lagging a server to cause players to disconect is PvP? That's just being a jackass.

 

[MacThule]

Are you kidding? How can anyone ever possibly think that deliberately lagging a server to cause players to disconect is PvP? That's just being a jackass.

What?

Did you... what the hell are you even talking about? Who here is recommending lagging servers??

 

[sayerulz]

Oh, I think I see what happened. When you said "anything goes outside of exploits, including server lagging" I, and I think Erth Paradine , though that you meant that "anything goes, including server lagging".

 

[Croquelune]

I really hope that "anything goes even real exploits" server didn't seriously exist...

Spoiler: ... or else...

... just tell me where. So that I can teach them in the hard way why it's a very very bad idea.

Cause you simply can't "fairly" use exploits.

 

[Erth Paradine]

What?

Did you... what the hell are you even talking about? Who here is recommending lagging servers??

Well, the way I read your earlier message, you:

...
BUT if a server chooses to bill itself as a "PvP server" or "PvP friendly server" then anything goes outside of exploits (including deliberate server lagging). The only reasonable (and even marginally enforceable rule) a legitimately PvP server should maybe have is regarding spawn-camping (especially at 2, 2, 2 / noob-spawn), and even that goes out the window in mods like Starbits and Elwyn Infinity where takedown of HBs is intended and expected and must sometimes be finalized with a few days of siege warfare (what carebears like to call "camping").

Bottom Line: If you're playing on a server that claims to be "PvP" - there is no such thing as 'griefing.' If you're playing on a non-PvP server, you'd better get explicit permission, in public, before engaging another player (and save a screenshot of the permission to CYA, cause carebears love to cry foul when they lose), and even then you're likely to be regarded as a bully if you consistently win such battles.

I've had players seriously argue that whole-server lag should be tolerated in PVP, and your reply seemed to be an extension that argument.

Maybe you meant to say that if a server chooses to bill itself as a "PvP server" or "PvP friendly server" then aside from exploits or deliberate server lagging, anything goes. If that's what you really meant, then I'm inclined to agree with you (with a few mostly noob-focused exceptions).

 

[refirendum]

my idea of griefing is player activity that render's a player or a set of players unable to play the game on that server and causing players not to return to the server or leave behind the game in its entirety.

 

[Edymnion]

As long as the ship, or reactor is moving, the lag should be minimal as one thing will "clip" out of the other.

It is when the ships and reactor are still that the tragedy begins.

It also really helps when people turn off the rail for a docked reactor.

Last I checked, a single rail block will still preform the checks and try to move the docked entity even when there is nowhere to move it to (because it has to move if you put another rail down in front of it). Which means its doing collision checks constantly.

Put a rail speed controller down, set the speed to 0, and "turn off" the dock rails for things that aren't supposed to be moving, and you'll save the server a lot of headache.

 

[MacThule]

Well, the way I read your earlier message, you:



I've had players seriously argue that whole-server lag should be tolerated in PVP, and your reply seemed to be an extension that argument.

Maybe you meant to say that if a server chooses to bill itself as a "PvP server" or "PvP friendly server" then aside from exploits or deliberate server lagging, anything goes. If that's what you really meant, then I'm inclined to agree with you (with a few mostly noob-focused exceptions).

Yeah. No. Exploits are always a violation of equal footing, which to me is a pre-requisite for good PvP. I only mentioned deliberate lag (and apparently caused confusion in the flow of my post) because it's so common here in Starmade that many do not regard it as the exploit it is.

 

[Erth Paradine]

Yeah. No. Exploits are always a violation of equal footing, which to me is a pre-requisite for good PvP. I only mentioned deliberate lag (and apparently caused confusion in the flow of my post) because it's so common here in Starmade that many do not regard it as the exploit it is.

Alright, so that means I can't call you a pigeon anyone. Darn it! Seriously though, thanks for clarifying.

 

[MacThule]

Well I'm well pleased - pigeons are dirty little things!