Pirates VS Griefers

[Erth Paradine]

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for starting this conversation Neon_42 .

Additional thoughts on what constitutes griefing:

• Repeated unprovoked bullying or targeting of specific individuals or groups, over a period of time, for minimal material gain.
• Repeatedly doing anything that causes whole-server lag or other wide-spread disruptions to game enjoyment, such as:
  • Launching entities designed to crash or lagoff all players, such as logic bombs, or lag-inducing entities.
  • Repeated launching of bricknaughts, or penis ships, despite admin warnings and persistent (whole-server lag) public complaints from other players.
  • Repeated whole-server lag inducing actives, such as coordinated multi-planet destruction and/or mining, the results of which lagoff all other players.
• Persistently trying to access a server despite admins making it abundantly clear you are not welcome (e.g. using VPNs, new accounts, etc).
• Being banned from a server, and then using VPNs to conceal your true origins: create new accounts, relog, and most-importantly, repeatedly launching lag-inducing and/or server-crashing entities.
• Bypassing a misconduct (temporary) suspension by convincing other faction members to surrender their StarMade Account passwords; enabling you to upload, spawn, and activate a server-crashing blueprint of your own design.
• Using exploits; leveraging bugs or glitches that place its user at an advantage not intended by the game's designers. For instance:
  • Exploits that break homebase protection on positive-point factions
  • faction module removals by exploiting bugs in salvage mechanics
  • relogging and sector loading bugs (e.g. forced entity undocking)
  • logic processing bugs (e.g. logic bombs)

These particular issues are not imagined: griefers on our server have done all of this in the past ~2 months alone, and I would so very greatly appreciate a sanity check on our related bans.

 

[Sgtwisky]

I mostly agree with that list Erth, but I am not sure about the point about bricknaughts, and penis ships. This is because bricknaughts can still be beaten by fleets, or very well build ships. I would say those are less under griefing, and more under trolling and/or breaking server rules on "Obscene or Offensive Ships" and "Doom Cubes". I think this one really comes from the fact most servers impose such rules, but I am sure there are some where no one cares if your trying to be offensive, or trolly. TBH I don't mind a little bit of trolling. Not just to me but others as well because it can end up very funny. But there can be a very thin line between trolling, and outright annoying/griefing.

 

[Nauvran]

• Repeated unprovoked bullying or targeting of specific individuals or groups, over a period of time, for minimal material gain.

• 
  You need to remember to tell the difference between a faction war and actual bullying here. Can be both griefing and "fun"
  
  

  [*]Repeatedly doing anything that causes whole-server lag or other wide-spread disruptions to game enjoyment, such as:
  

  • Launching entities designed to crash or lagoff all players, such as logic bombs, or lag-inducing entities.
  • Repeated launching of bricknaughts, or penis ships, despite admin warnings and persistent (whole-server lag) public complaints from other players.
  • Repeated whole-server lag inducing actives, such as coordinated multi-planet destruction and/or mining, the results of which lagoff all other players.

  • 
    With this you need to be exactly sure that the lag was intended of it was just a mistake or bug.
    
    Bricknaughts or doomcubes as they are normally known are nothing but ugly ships, I can't tell whats griefing about that. Dickships are no problems either as it mostly is a mistake on the builders side, direct imports of nude models and genitals are offensive and should be immediately removed but I wouldn't say this is greifing either.
    
    New people are the biggest offenders in this aspect, mostly because they dont know that they are causing troubles, is that really griefing? I wouldn't say it is. This is yet another topic where you need to look at the facts of the situation. You can't call a person griefer if he doesn't know he's making the server lagging.
    
    

  [*]Persistently trying to access a server despite admins making it abundantly clear you are not welcome (e.g. using VPNs, new accounts, etc).

  That's not griefing. that's just being an idiot that won't listen.
  
  

  [*]Being banned from a server, and then using VPNs to conceal your true origins: create new accounts, relog, and most-importantly, repeatedly launching lag-inducing and/or server-crashing entities.

  First part of this isn't griefing either, second part is as it ruins the game for the other people on the server.
  
  

  [*]Bypassing a misconduct (temporary) suspension by convincing other faction members to surrender their StarMade Account passwords; enabling you to upload, spawn, and activate a server-crashing blueprint of your own design.

  No not griefing. you seem to have griefing confused with ban avoiding behaviour. well the last part is again griefing but you know what Im getting at at this point.
  
  

  [*]Using exploits; leveraging bugs or glitches that place its user at an advantage not intended by the game's designers. For instance:
  

  • Exploits that break homebase protection on positive-point factions
  • faction module removals by exploiting bugs in salvage mechanics
  • relogging and sector loading bugs (e.g. forced entity undocking)
  • logic processing bugs (e.g. logic bombs)

These particular issues are not imagined: griefers on our server have done all of this in the past ~2 months alone, and I would so very greatly appreciate a sanity check on our related bans.

Exploits are used everywhere, as long as they are not ruining the game for anyone it's not griefing. Another subject that is depending on the situation. (those you listed are really bad exlpoits though)

 

[sayerulz]

The biggest difference really is intent. If someone is doing something for material gain, to expand their territory, ECT, then it can be considered PvP.

But anything that someone does with the sole intent of making the game less fun for others is griefing.

If you attack and disable someones cargo ship and take all their materials, then that can be considered legitimate piracy.

If you attack someones cargo ship and just blow it up then leave, you are just being a dick.

 

[Erth Paradine]

I mostly agree with that list Erth, but I am not sure about the point about bricknaughts, and penis ships. This is because bricknaughts can still be beaten by fleets, or very well build ships. I would say those are less under griefing, and more under trolling and/or breaking server rules on "Obscene or Offensive Ships" and "Doom Cubes". I think this one really comes from the fact most servers impose such rules, but I am sure there are some where no one cares if your trying to be offensive, or trolly. TBH I don't mind a little bit of trolling. Not just to me but others as well because it can end up very funny. But there can be a very thin line between trolling, and outright annoying/griefing.

Perhaps its just a difference in options/definitions here: when I think of a "penis ship" I'm thinking not of something that looks like genitalia, but something often called penis trucks IRL. Yes I know I linked to a satire site, but then the phrase penis ship isn't exactly webster quality either. Back to StarMade though - what I was visualizing, were ships edging towards gigantism + a seemingly endless number of turrets (e.g. colliding entities).

Bricknaughts is also a difficult definition to pin down, although we're trying. Overall though, StarMade players are very resourceful, and I don't expect any such definition to ever be fixed in stone, as players will continue to engineer scenarios that were never before dreamed of.
[doublepost=1468520186,1468519781][/doublepost]

The biggest difference really is intent. If someone is doing something for material gain, to expand their territory, ECT, then it can be considered PvP.

But anything that someone does with the sole intent of making the game less fun for others is griefing.

If you attack and disable someones cargo ship and take all their materials, then that can be considered legitimate piracy.

If you attack someones cargo ship and just blow it up then leave, you are just being a dick.

Agreed.

As for establishing intent or not, would something like this cover cover it?

• Harmful to a majority of players; and/or
• Repeated bullying or targeting over a period of time (for minimal material gain).

 

[Nauvran]

Perhaps its just a difference in options/definitions here: when I think of a "penis ship" I'm thinking not of something that looks like genitalia, but something often called penis trucks IRL. Yes I know I linked to a satire site, but then the phrase penis ship isn't exactly webster quality either. Back to StarMade though - what I was visualizing, were ships edging towards gigantism + a seemingly endless number of turrets (e.g. colliding entities).

Bricknaughts is also a difficult definition to pin down, although we're trying. Overall though, StarMade players are very resourceful, and I don't expect any such definition to ever be fixed in stone, as players will continue to engineer scenarios that were never before dreamed of.
[doublepost=1468520186,1468519781][/doublepost]

Agreed.

As for establishing intent or not, would something like this cover cover it?

• Harmful to a majority of players; and/or
• Repeated bullying or targeting over a period of time (for minimal material gain).

The chat logs in that thread is just showing you being a jerk to a player ._.

 

[Erth Paradine]

The chat logs in that thread is just showing you being a jerk to a player ._.

There's multiple threads there, so I'm assuming you meant MLG's entry.

Jerk? No, it was an earlier strategy we employed as a deterrent to abusive behaviors. At first we just deleted entities like this player's, and in hindsight, deletions would be a jerk move.

This player was ignoring attempts to contact them, and making communications difficult once contact was established. Even during that time, we've transitioned to various strategies which enable a player to retain their earned resources. The goal is not to be punitive, but corrective, with minimal negative impacts to the whole-server.

 

[Nauvran]

There's multiple threads there, so I'm assuming you meant MLG's entry.

Jerk? No, it was an earlier strategy we employed as a deterrent to abusive behaviors. At first we just deleted entities like this player's, and in hindsight, deletions would be a jerk move.

This player was ignoring attempts to contact them, and making communications difficult once contact was established. Even during that time, we've transitioned to various strategies which enable a player to retain their earned resources. The goal is not to be punitive, but corrective, with minimal negative impacts to the whole-server.

yeah because deleting and impounding players ships just because they are boxy is a good thing to do, that my friend is exactly what griefing is and what would be called badmin behaviour.
I mean seriously, locking people in a sector because they fly a brick? Brick's are not even effective ships shapes anymore. Banning bricks is basically banning every single starter mining ship that people use.

 

[Erth Paradine]

yeah because deleting and impounding players ships just because they are boxy is a good thing to do, that my friend is exactly what griefing is and what would be called badmin behaviour.
I mean seriously, locking people in a sector because they fly a brick? Brick's are not even effective ships shapes anymore. Banning bricks is basically banning every single starter mining ship that people use.

That thread snippet is not intended to illustrate the entire situation; the player was ramming objects at spawn, bumping ships away, and clipping/colliding with spawn's station; causing whole-server lag. That's what caught my attention, and that's what the "PMs" were trying to discuss. The visually laggy ship just compounded things, and accomplished nothing but irritating others, admins included. This particular player was never banned nor suspended: we were previously very hesitant to ban any player, instead preferring a less heavy-handed approach of using PMs, trying to have a private conversation, moving to impounds when players were unreachable, and then disabling/deleting entities as a last resort.

As I stated already, what you see is an earlier strategy, and like many things, we've learned from prior experiences, improved, and continue working towards a strategy that (1st) stops whatever is causing whole-server lag, (2nd) extrapolates intent, and from there deciding which strategy is more appropriate for the circumstances: a punitive strategy (bans, deletions, etc), or a corrective strategy (conversations, teaching, impounds, disassembly, etc).

 

[Az14el]

What I always visualised when I heard bricknaught/doombrick/variations on that theme was k10wn speak for "you literally don't even have hull, or like, opaque non animated blocks at all, try again, <tirade of expletives>"

Which I think is annoying as shit to have suddenly jump into your sector, maybe not griefing if the player in question is simply uninspired and doesn't see why they're being yelled at, but definitely dumb and definitely can be used maliciously. As far as doomcubes, well I liked ships to look somewhat shiplike due to balance issues when coring was a thing & lock on missiles were like weaponised stars no matter what they hit. But yes things have definitely changed in that regard, cubes are food nowadays, it's all about dem doomwedges.

 

[Winterhome]

doomwedges

vertical launch missiles

 

[Sgtwisky]

vertical launch missiles

Doomwedge with LOTS of AMS turrets... Not that I'm advocating such a thing *cough* Star Destroyer *cough* but it could be effective.

 

[Winterhome]

Doomwedge with LOTS of AMS turrets... Not that I'm advocating such a thing *cough* Star Destroyer *cough* but it could be effective.

PD distractors

 

[Az14el]

Though I find lots of vertilaunch pods & PD distraction is just a great answer to literally everything to be fair

 

[FireG0dz]

New people are the biggest offenders in this aspect, mostly because they dont know that they are causing troubles, is that really griefing? I wouldn't say it is. This is yet another topic where you need to look at the facts of the situation. You can't call a person griefer if he doesn't know he's making the server lagging.

Mmmmm what now? you couldld've told me i was lagging the server and i would've stopped tp'ing around. Plus im off the medication now so no more mood swings Also, what i did to MasterArtificier and Atra was greifing, but i literally couldn't control my emotions so... yeah. Not saying it isn't my fault but it's not totally my fault.

 

[Lukwan]

On joining a MP server & following it's rules.

-I would never inflict my Noobness on MP players unless I made some effort to learn the basics in SP and researched it a bit. I feel that for SM it is inappropriate to dive right in and expect the community to babysit and hand-hold because I was too lazy to do my homework.

-After a day or two I join a server. I look up the rules of the server on it's forum-thread or website. The posted rules confirm for me that this server has the play-style I am looking for. If I think the rules are unfair I find a different server. The point being; it is MY responsibility to learn and follow the rules. I should not just run around pell-mell and expect my bad behavior to be corrected by the admin (they are here to play & have fun too).

-I should know what is considered griefing on the server and have some idea about prohibited exploits. Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

-I should educate myself about the short-list of Lag-Bombs and avoid them: Planet-Loitering, Collisions, Logic-Bombs etc.

-Asking questions may help form bonds with other players. However...I will avoid playing 20-questions with the people who are so helpful and learn the basic stuff on my own, accepting the necessity of the internet, the SM Dock, YouTube & Wikis.

 

[Sgtwisky]

Lukwan... I wish more of the players on more games took that approach.

 

[MacThule]

I agree that the issue needs clarification, but disagree with the OP's somewhat idealized characterizations of 'piracy.' As someone who enjoys PvP in other venues outside of Starmade, sometimes the only incentive I need to attack something is the feeling I need to hone my skills with a little trigger time. Sometimes the best war strategy is emotionally or mentally attacking the enemy or the enemy's alliances and social network.

In PvE servers, almost every form of strategic and psychological warfare is going to be widely regarded as so-called "griefing" (a very poorly defined term basically referring to anything that makes someone sad... like other people not letting them win things).

Personally, in Starmade terms, I think that legitimate PvP actions on most servers should be restricted to mutually agreed, arranged 'duels' and sport fights. End of story.

BUT if a server chooses to bill itself as a "PvP server" or "PvP friendly server" then anything goes outside of exploits (including deliberate server lagging). The only reasonable (and even marginally enforceable rule) a legitimately PvP server should maybe have is regarding spawn-camping (especially at 2, 2, 2 / noob-spawn), and even that goes out the window in mods like Starbits and Elwyn Infinity where takedown of HBs is intended and expected and must sometimes be finalized with a few days of siege warfare (what carebears like to call "camping").

Bottom Line: If you're playing on a server that claims to be "PvP" - there is no such thing as 'griefing.' If you're playing on a non-PvP server, you'd better get explicit permission, in public, before engaging another player (and save a screenshot of the permission to CYA, cause carebears love to cry foul when they lose), and even then you're likely to be regarded as a bully if you consistently win such battles.

 

[Croquelune]

Exploits are used everywhere, as long as they are not ruining the game for anyone it's not griefing.

Wut ? So should I understand exploits are... tolerable ?

 

[Nauvran]

Wut ? So should I understand exploits are... tolerable ?

well the problem is that some people see something like docked reactors as exploits. And then there are some exploits that arent really that helpfull anyway.
So as long as it's not an exploit that makes anyone overpowred there shouldnt be a problem, in theory.