Brainstorm This My Two Cents on Turret AI

[CJfoks]

IMAO other improvents to Bobby AI should be made:
- Auto reset position of turret when no targets in sight. (option controled with checkbox in ai gui)
- Activating and dectivating Bobby AI with wire logics.
- Auto reactivation when player exits turret/ship core.
- Option for auto undocking of droneship when enemy in sight
- Auto redocking of droneship after battle.
- Also there should be option for placing many Bobby AI on one structure then assigning them to diffrent weapon systems.

 

[HerrColonel]

I'm totally in! This allows for full turret behavior tweaking.
I think a great addition (for anti missile turret mainly) would be a priority for the missiles that aren't selected by any other turret

 

[GDPR 302420]

This is literally what i was going to post about they need a huuge overhaul can we get a dev statement on this?

 

[Pacific_Jim]

It was my understanding that Bobby AIs where going to be phased out almost entirely for NPCs, with customizable AI. However, that's not really been brought up for a while and is a fair way off, since that kind of thing is easier to implement when more of the games features are set in stone.

 

[Lecic]

It was my understanding that Bobby AIs where going to be phased out almost entirely for NPCs, with customizable AI. However, that's not really been brought up for a while and is a fair way off, since that kind of thing is easier to implement when more of the games features are set in stone.

I think it was moreso that turrets would be improved if they had an NPC piloting instead. You wouldn't waste space having an NPC control one of potentially hundreds of PD turrets, would you?

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Depending on how NPC control is handled it may not be a space issue. Likewise, depend on how its implemented Point Defense might be one the most useful places to put custom AI in, setting up blanket firing patterns etc.

 

[GreyKnight]

If this doesn't make it into the game I will make sure that schema doesn't get any cake. Ever.

You monster!

Yetimania: what you call a "tiebreaker" seems rather to be a way of ordering the targets within a given category. Combined with the ordering between categories, this imposes a complete priority order on every available target (and then the AI just picks the first target on the resulting list).

 

[Bench]

Wow a lot to take in there. As some people highlighted we definitely need to consider the complexity vs adequate functionality, allowing enough features for players who want to get super specific while not being so complicated that new players can't pull it up. Also as we look towards being able to assign a NPC to control turrets separate to just relying on Bobby AI we need to think about what bonuses having a NPC has compared to Bobby AI.

Given the learning curve then, if we were to add this in I'd lean more towards breaking up the complexity between Bobby AI and a NPC, so you have a simple version to understand in Bobby AI, then a more complex version with the NPC, as new players are more likely to start with a Bobby AI when they start to build turrets, than going straight for a NPC.

We're still planning on adding additional features and functions to Bobby AI, as well as turrets in general. Logic controls etc that are fairly simple for starters. I'd say though given what I've mentioned above, I wouldn't mind hearing some brainstorming between the two facets of turret control (bobby and NPC) as well as ways to make sure the OP proposed method isn't overly complicated.

 

[SchnellBier]

Wow a lot to take in there. As some people highlighted we definitely need to consider the complexity vs adequate functionality, allowing enough features for players who want to get super specific while not being so complicated that new players can't pull it up. Also as we look towards being able to assign a NPC to control turrets separate to just relying on Bobby AI we need to think about what bonuses having a NPC has compared to Bobby AI.

Given the learning curve then, if we were to add this in I'd lean more towards breaking up the complexity between Bobby AI and a NPC, so you have a simple version to understand in Bobby AI, then a more complex version with the NPC, as new players are more likely to start with a Bobby AI when they start to build turrets, than going straight for a NPC.

We're still planning on adding additional features and functions to Bobby AI, as well as turrets in general. Logic controls etc that are fairly simple for starters. I'd say though given what I've mentioned above, I wouldn't mind hearing some brainstorming between the two facets of turret control (bobby and NPC) as well as ways to make sure the OP proposed method isn't overly complicated.

About the Bobby AI/Turrets/Drones/possible crew funktionallity. I came up with a idea how to controll the ship entitys in a good way. I don´t know it will help in this thead since it´s maybe only part of what it´s about.


BOBBY AI MENU

In my opinion we need some kind of menu in which every entity with a bobby ai is listed (maybe bobby ai as requirement to be used by crew?). The list can be divided into Turrets (every entitiy with a bobby ai on a turret docker) and Ships (every entitiy with bobby ai on a rail).

The list should contain:
1. Name of the Entity/Bobby AI (naming bobby ai modules?)
2. List of weapon systems this entity can use.
3. Maybe more information.

This is to identify which entitiy it actually is. Now the fun part how this can improve the controlls.

DRAG AND DROP BOBBY AI GROUPING

Basically a menu in which entitys with bobby ai modules can be grouped via drag and drop. I doesn´t need to be an extra window or anything. I know that the interface shouldn´t be too complex but if done right this can work pretty well.

What this menu should do:
1. Create groups: You can create a group to drag and drop bobby ai entitys in it.
2. Controll the behaviour of a entity group:
- Change ai mode (ship, turret, anti missile, anti person, fire on my target, etc)
- Change the priorities (manually give the ai a number as priority via a slider what it should do, maybe locked if not controlled by a crew member? Maybe adding own priority targets with the more advanced system Yetimanias suggestion is about?)
- Maybe more configuration. I´m didn´t read everything what is needed/wanted in this thread but this can be the place where advanced settings are hidden to not confuse new players.
3. Give every group a draggable button with a fire at my curret target command. With this button pulled in the action bar you can manually controll which entity group should fire what ship. For example: the right turrets can fire a target to your right and the left turrets to your left and you can still fire a target in front of you.
4. Similar features and commands for drone controll (If it´s possible in the future. Space to add a draggable Button to start and land drones.)

Here a small and bad drawn concept made in paint:


I know that concept is kind of basic but in my opinion a drag and drop menu like this is really easy to understand and to handle without reducing a possible complexity hidden in it.

 

[cyberus111]

Just read this after making a similar thread. I fully support this idea. As for CyberTao's concern about new players I agree completely. I would suggest a much easier interface for noons to start with and an "advanced" tab for those of us that really want to dig into it. I think the basic interface could have options like this:

[] Ally [X] Enemy [] Neutral (check as many as you want from these 3)

Ships [1]
Turrets[3]
Asteroids [0]
Space Stations [2]
Astronauts [4]
Missiles [5]

*A value of zero indicates that, that type of target would not be targeted.

*you could not enter the same priority for two target types (except for zero)

Keep in mind that this is just a fast example. there could be more values and such but I'm too lazy to write all the possibilities down. BUT I think that a simple menu like this could help new players get use to the idea of setting a role for their turret until they want to jump down the rabbit hole.

See, now this is the kind of thing that (IMHO) would be something to shoot for NOW with "advanced" or "NPC AI" to come at some later date, fix whats broken now rather than waiting 6 months for cake AND ice cream with sprinkles

 

[CrunkPrime]

The thing I want most is to be able to have wireless on/off switches connected to each turret Booby AI, so that I can set up proper turret groupings and turn them off and on at will.

So I can have things like a high power usage turret that I keep off most times, but switch everything else off except AMS/PD turrets, and fire up the big turret. Or whatever else I want to do.

 

[cyberus111]

The thing I want most is to be able to have wireless on/off switches connected to each turret Booby AI, so that I can set up proper turret groupings and turn them off and on at will.

So I can have things like a high power usage turret that I keep off most times, but switch everything else off except AMS/PD turrets, and fire up the big turret. Or whatever else I want to do.

This looks like something that could/should be part of the entity menu. Expand the rail turret menu to show docked entities and include a activate/deactivate for each (when selected & expanded).

 

[Parameter]

This looks like something that could/should be part of the entity menu. Expand the rail turret menu to show docked entities and include a activate/deactivate for each (when selected & expanded).

Sure, but really the entity menu is a poor substitution for real on-ship interfaces. I'd rather use logic or an on-ship display to handle this than dig through a nested tree view of my ship in combat.

 

[cyberus111]

Sure, but really the entity menu is a poor substitution for real on-ship interfaces. I'd rather use logic or an on-ship display to handle this than dig through a nested tree view of my ship in combat.

No argument there .. however like the bobby ai menu I quoted earlier .... wouldn't it work NOW while waiting for the cake and ice cream with sprinkles later?

 

[Parameter]

Yep. That's why I agreed with you. Stick it in the entity menu with the other things that need an on-ship interface, but don't stop pushing for those shipboard solutions, either.

 

[cyberus111]

Something else I'd like to see in the bobby AI menu is a "fire unfocused" for array type weapons so that "waffle" type shotgun arrays stay spread out.

 

[Sgtwisky]

cyberus111, that would be a good addition. It would be almost required for any kind of effective asteroid mining turret !

 

[StormWing0]

lol keep this going guys, it's getting good.

 

[Sgtwisky]

OK, I decided to think through how I would like AI Turrets to work. (Read that as wall of text)

First, There should be a simple starting point. The Bobby AI should handle this, as its likely what players will use starting out. The settings in the Bobby should include two things imo. First what the turret is allowed to target, and second the faction relations it can target. For all intents and purposes, this is almost the same as we have now.

Target Types: (select all that apply)

• Player
• Station
• Ship
• Asteroid
  
• Planet
• Turret
• Missiles
• Docked Ships

Target Relation: (select all that apply)

• Ally
• Neutral
  
• Enemy
• Selected
• Self

For salvage turrets, you would most likely use Selected. When using Selected you would not be able to target your own ship. For that you have to check "Self"

Now, Turrets will still just target the first thing that fits the target type, and target relation. They will still act a bit wonky but you would be able to prevent an AMS turret from bothering with that titan your fighting. and you could setup small anti astronaut turrets near your outer doors and know they WILL attack boarding parties instead of chaff, drones or missiles. I think this first layer of AI would be very easy to grasp for new players as well. As for the interface I assume that there will be a tab or two in the Bobby AI menu.

NOW The more advanced functions would only be possible, by using a crew member to man the turret. I am going to assume that they will have to be present ON the turret, unless there are plans to make turret control panels that can be connected to turret blocks, allowing access via the main ship.

The functions would have to do with fine tuning your turrets AI. These would be a little more complex to setup, and thus are not present on the Bobby AI, but rather selected through a crew member that has been assigned to a turret. This way I hope to cut down on the learning curve for new players.

Turret Priorities: (select all that apply, and the order in which they are checked)

• Largest Mass
• Smallest Mass
• Highest Shields
• Lowest Shields (target with lowest amount of shields that is greater then zero)
  
• No Shields
• Most Armor HP %
• Lowest Armor HP %
• Most Structure HP %
• Lowest Structure HP %
• Highest Offense Score
• Lowest Offense Score
• Highest Defense Score
• Lowest Defense Score
• Highest Mobility Score
• Lowest Mobility Score
• Highest Support Score
• Lowest Support Score
• Closest
• Furthest (in turrets range)

Turret Options: (All options are Toggle On or Off)

• Focused Fire
  
• Reset to Default Position (Face forward when not shooting)
  
• Allow Pilot Control (do not allow the pilot to cycle to this turret when pressing UP/Down (Maybe include this on ships as well))
• Draw Power From Mother Ship (Could be useful depending on ship power gen design. Should not count the turret "base" as the mother ship)
• Eject When Destroyed (Ejects the turret off the main ship once it is overheating)

I think that covers all the options I can think of. As for interface I will leave that up to the Dev's, as that is not my particular strength.

 

[PizzaPress]

The only thing I might think could be an issue is the ability to set most of your turrets as "Priority 1: Missiles". Though it would make sense with small PD turrets that we use now, allowing that kind of thing opens up the option to make giant turrets with multiple computers to exploit the AI firing all computers. A giant turret originally with 2 5k outputs now has hundreds of 10 dps outputs (accounting for lost space from computers), making missiles effectively useless (accounting for the fact that PD will be fixed accuracy wise, and missiles having more appropriate speed).

Somehow I feel this wouldn't work well, such as having decoy missiles spew out of your ship at the sides, using vertical launch tubes, and large turret turn times.
If PD gets increased accuracy, I'm sure they'll keep it from bleeding over(missiles could use a hitbox increase instead?), or fix it in due time.