Multi target group firing system

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    This has been done in many space games. Honestly kind of surprised thinking about it that it hasn't already been done here.

    Allow ships and stations to target a craft and select it as a target and number it one trough 8 for example.
    Then select a weapons group and set the to fire on that target..

    In short you could do something like select a target and have 4 of your turrets fire on that target.
    You could select another target and have the remaining fire on it.

    This also means needing the ability to assign turrets to a weapons group.

    You could also allow group fire for hard-mounted weapons so that you could fire several weapons at a time.
    This is also done in many other space games. It would be up to the ships creator to account for power in the design to fire all those weapons.

    It would certainly make combat more lively and end faster.
     

    Lecic

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    One important thing to remember is that if we allow multiple hard mounted weapons to fire at the same time without needing AI or logic, this would require weapon rebalancing first, as we currently have a penalty for firing a weapon with multiple outputs, and this could be used to circumvent that.
     
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    One important thing to remember is that if we allow multiple hard mounted weapons to fire at the same time without needing AI or logic, this would require weapon rebalancing first, as we currently have a penalty for firing a weapon with multiple outputs, and this could be used to circumvent that.
    But you can already circumvent this by having a separate firing computer per output, since the overall damage is divided per output, based on each output's size. This is really only useful for AI controlled weapons, and it would be nice to not have the stupid AI have such a rudimentary advantage. I've been able to use firing groups since 1995 for cyrin' out loud!

    Or am I missing something? Lol
     
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    Stupid comment by me not paying attention and being half asleep.
     
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    Ok, show me how to fire left two separate types of Missile systems at the same target.
    Or, how to fire your beams and cannons left mouse button on a target.
    If you say left mouse is less effective suggest you look at. Left Mouse vs Right Mouse

    The short answer no we can't do this now not even close.
    Hey now, I was saying that's why we in fact DO need to have firing groups. I was specifically talking about circumventing the power penalty for having multiple outputs. I should have clarified in addition to quoting Lecic .
     
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    Hey now, I was saying that's why we in fact DO need to have firing groups. I was specifically talking about circumventing the power penalty for having multiple outputs. I should have clarified in addition to quoting Lecic .
    Sorry
    My bad I probably should get some sleep. I read the part we already can do this and this is only good for AI.
    And you are correct.
    [doublepost=1491286216,1491285864][/doublepost]
    One important thing to remember is that if we allow multiple hard mounted weapons to fire at the same time without needing AI or logic, this would require weapon rebalancing first, as we currently have a penalty for firing a weapon with multiple outputs, and this could be used to circumvent that.
    Already can be circumvented as Brokenguage pointed out. You can use on board logic trigger to fire weapons. The only thing you can't do is specify left mouse over right mouse and acquire a lock on for missiles. Actually you can acquire a lock on for missiles.
    You create a turret facing forward and lock it in place. Then set it to fire at your target. Since we can now turn on and off AI with the upcoming change you can now effectively fire an unending godless number of missiles with lock on.
     
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    Sorry
    My bad I probably should get some sleep. I read the part we already can do this and this is only good for AI.
    And you are correct.
    [doublepost=1491286216,1491285864][/doublepost]

    Already can be circumvented as Brokenguage pointed out. You can use on board logic trigger to fire weapons. The only thing you can't do is specify left mouse over right mouse and acquire a lock on for missiles. Actually you can acquire a lock on for missiles.
    You create a turret facing forward and lock it in place. Then set it to fire at your target. Since we can now turn on and off AI with the upcoming change you can now effectively fire an unending godless number of missiles with lock on.
    Lol, it's all good. I'm sure that's what I accidentally said. I get complaints IRL about being confusing lol
     

    Lecic

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    But you can already circumvent this by having a separate firing computer per output, since the overall damage is divided per output, based on each output's size. This is really only useful for AI controlled weapons, and it would be nice to not have the stupid AI have such a rudimentary advantage. I've been able to use firing groups since 1995 for cyrin' out loud!

    Or am I missing something? Lol
    What? AI can already fire multiple hardmounted weapons together. The problem is player controlled vessels getting the ability to do this. AI bypasses of output penalties are balanced by the fact that AI is about as smart as a brick and takes serious penalties if the enemy is jamming. Logic bypasses of output penalties are balanced because you must aim the entire ship to use them. Players being able to fire hardmounted weapons together is broken because they would bypass the output penalty.

    Already can be circumvented as Brokenguage pointed out.
    without needing AI or logic
    So did I, your point? AI and logic being able to do this is already borderline broken with some meta weapon setups, but both have large disadvantages at least.
     
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    I was simply talking about using the AI as a targeting system using the fire at my target option. It allows you to create virtual hardpoints that you select the target with. The ability to turn AI on and off with logic will make it easier to control when they fire.
    You could also simply set a secondary switch up that fires the weapons using logic remote.
    The point being is you bypass the penalty for multiple hard points as it is now.

    You can also get passed the power penalty for multiple groups if you are willing to simply fire them in succession.
    Example. Put 8 missile groups down and only enough power caps for one. You can then fire one after another simply by hitting the firing button every time it recharges.

    This leads back to the issue I brought up in common sense. Their way of dealing with everything is putting limiters and penalties on everything rather than fixing the root cause. Thus they end up with stuff like this where they have people working around it.
    If everyone has the capability to do it then it isn't a balance issue because everyone can do it. Being able to do it seems to work good for countless other games. If someone ends up with a ship that isn't very strong or capable it is on them what are going to do next hold their hand and show people how to build ships. Maybe I know well just build the ships to start with and simply let everyone use the same type of ship.

    There is no such thing as balance in a game. Even if you give everyone the exact same thing even going to the point of having an AI play for them identically it isn't the same. One may get to play long one person will have bad weather and a power failure.... People are different and no matter how much you try to make stuff balanced it doesn't work.

    You want really balance you give them an AI that follows a script everyone's AI plays for 20 hours. They all do the exact same thing get the same loot rewards everything. Oh I forgot some poor slop wasn't able to watch his AI play the game for him because he had to do something hell maybe he died...

    God I am so sick of hearing people use balance as an excuse for the mess we have on here. I have yet to see one single thing positive come out of the so called attempts to make things balanced in this game.
     

    nightrune

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    God I am so sick of hearing people use balance as an excuse for the mess we have on here. I have yet to see one single thing positive come out of the so called attempts to make things balanced in this game.
    To me, this points to a serious flaw in the base system.
     
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    To me, this points to a serious flaw in the base system.
    I can understand how you might come to that conclusion. I disagree though.
    The base game is the game at its simplest. That would be a space game where people can build ships. Everyone has the same tools and resources to work with thus the game is already balanced as much as it can ever be.

    You can pretty much link most the issues in the game to the attempts to limit players or to create a balance where there shouldn't be or unnatural balance.

    If for example fighters and light craft where actually given tools to perform the roles they are better suited at rather than trying to give them some sort of unnatural bonus then people would have more options and greater need to use small craft.

    They overly relied on power as a limiter in so many instances, Small craft have a power boost while large ships have a cap. No ways close to reality. Most air craft carriers can out run most the rest of the fleet. Same if you look at space craft and designs for concept ones. While we may not have all the tech at hand to build some of them we can still calculate power and plan accordingly to determine what is needed. A good example of stuff calculated can be seen in this video . Advancements our knowledge in warp theory have lead to designs that would require far smaller amounts of power needed to the point we have a potentially viable design idea floored.

    Small craft usually make good scout, recon, surveillance, interceptors, precision targeting, you know hitting points that say a capital ship might not be directly able to target.

    In this game you can't use fighters to get passed shields because in this game shields resembles more closely Star Trek Hull integrity field.

    Cloaking they chose to limit via power, as they did weapons groups by power and so on. That is some what understandable from the position they where at in the start of development. They really didn't have much else to work with. Power was the one deciding thing you could restrict or control on pretty much everything.
    However, they could have limited cloaking by several other means thus making small craft more suited for full use of cloaking and while allowing other craft to use it limiting their ability with it because of size.
    That could easily been done by limiting the maximum cloaking effect while moving and using two points to measure to reduces its effect. Speed and mass of object. Instead of increasing power requirements they could have simply limited the alpha of the object.

    In short the real issue is the mentality and clinking to the early practice from when the game was starting out. They don't need to any longer.
    Instead of looking at limits via power and so on they should look for more realistic reasons things are could exist.
    Take the issue with cloaking. They can have several legit reasons larger ships actually would be harder to cloak. Its a larger canvas to cover without distortions being visible. We know we can uses lenses today to actually reflect light around small objects. Its fairly simple with a small object but the larger it gets the harder it is not just cost wise for lenses but simply the distortion of trying to refract light in such around such a large area. I am sure you are familiar with a prism and how light is split into its wavelengths. Well the fact is that is an issue with all lenses. The larger it is the greater the issue is. So if you refract light around a large area those colored beams no longer line up as closely as they would have. In short the effect would be about like looking at a 3D movie without the glasses. You remember the Red Blue lens glasses.

    Shields are another thing that do and don't make sense under the current system. Components handle X amount of power. You can limit the amount of power going to them in RL. Now you could say a shield that is charged requires very little power to maintain that charge. That would be do to stuff like capacitive leaking, power changes to heat.... and so on. Then under charging conditions it needs X amount of power to restore one point of a field energy. However there would be no difference at all under combat vs non-combat unless someone decided to push more power to shields. That would also result in much stronger shields if the rest of the system could handle increased power.

    No military vessel in the world would employ a technology they couldn't control the power level to and it simply decide to use 10 times the power for no real reason. The US military (Navy) when it comes to stuff like this pretty much knows how much power everything is going to use and they account for it to the point where they know how much higher each day they need to pull the control rods to keep power up on their nuclear powered ships.

    That said they could make use of weapons effects such as EMP to explain limited shield regeneration, power losses... You could even excuse it with something like it creates reverse power currents and so on. That is if you needed an explanation. Just saying doing stuff simply to limit something and doing it in the face of logic usually creates bad results.
    Just think if light craft could rely on cloaking more then the reliance on shielding would be far less needed. Small craft aren't good for head to head confrontations. The modern day dog fight is measured in miles and seconds.

    So in conclusion I see it as more a state of them needing to grow out of an old practice and not an issue with the base game.
     
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    Lecic

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    I was simply talking about using the AI as a targeting system using the fire at my target option. It allows you to create virtual hardpoints that you select the target with.
    So it allows you to treat weapons systems on the main vessel as if they were docked AI weapons like many people currently do?

    You can also get passed the power penalty for multiple groups if you are willing to simply fire them in succession
    This only works with low rate of fire weapons.

    There is no such thing as balance in a game.
    Yes there is. Don't be dumb. Balance is the act of making sure as many systems are useful and viable choices as possible.
     
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    Yes there is. Don't be dumb. Balance is the act of making sure as many systems are useful and viable choices as possible.
    I get what you are trying to say and how you are thinking about it. You are thinking about it as is this weapon equivalent in some manor to this weapons ability in combat.

    You could try and measure that as Damage/time/power and you might be able to say they are equal on that level. But lets take the missile and look at it vs beam. Missiles can be shot down the M-DP are even easier to shoot down because they are slower and take more time to reach a target. Not just that the reload speed is so slow that if the ships shield survive they can recharge and pass out of the combat damage rate in that time length.

    Cannons can actually take advantage of left mouse over right mouse beams can't. Canons can also hit missiles beams can't.
    Beams however have better penetrating ability and can take a ship down faster for some reason explosive effect seams to be the most effective effect over all in taking down the ship with beams. I spent time testing the various effects last week against a 40 thick advanced armor hull with 400K shields.

    That said it all comes down to how you choose to use them.

    It is precisely because there are so many ways of using something and the size can very there is no actual balance. Add to that you can't fix the user or person playing the game.

    You could hand two people identical ships with no weapons on the ships and just hard point locations. The will more than likely fill them differently.

    But maybe you can tell me how putting a limiter on a weapon makes it more viable or any other weapon more viable. It does nothing for the weapon it is put on and it doesn't improve the weapons it isn't put on.
    Example: multi-grouping additional power usage per group. In what way did that balance anything, all it did was put a heavier power requirement on every weapon out there effectively weakening them all. All that does is make battles take longer. in fact all it really did was encourage the use of more docked weapons. Just like the power restrictions encouraged people to use docked power and docked shields and so on.
    Did either of those choices solve a single thing? NO. They did however encourage behavior that led to more issues like the docked systems causing lag when breaking loose in combat. That really though is more a design issue with the way devs implemented the docked system. But that is another post.

    But if you look every single time in this game people are looking for work arounds it has to do with limiters /caps and having more burdens put on something.

    What have we gotten for it super packed dense ships filled with cubes to the point it makes you feel like there goal is simply to fill up any empty space in your ship with more cubes.
     
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    It is precisely because there are so many ways of using something and the size can very there is no actual balance.
    Which is why trying to add balance is so silly. The weapon systems are fine just like power. Stop messing with it.

    In fact just revert back to the power system and weapon damage from before StarMade v0.189997. So everyone that quit the game then can come back and enjoy it once more. Then everything made and for download in the Community Content will work once again. Small ships will get there teeth back!

    Also add back the HOSTILE SIGHTED hunt you down Pirate spawn system. "even if that maybe was just a counter" This current stale universe where nothing bad happens unless you provoke it is making pansies out of everybody.