More interesting and balanced Thrusters

[NeonSturm]

I support that bigger ships should have less speed. Would make the game more interesting.



Some may answer: "But bigger engines work more efficient!"

I am prepared for that - read below:





"Neodyne-thrusters" would occassionally fire backwards (damage your own ship too) to discourage from building them inside ships.

They can skip up to 2 or 4 blocks to allow deko for thrusters. (output-Z-pos per xy is updated after leaving build mode)
Not all of them - that would cause lag. Only the ones at the back of a thruster array.



ship.maxSpeed = ship.thrusterBlocks / (ship.allBlocks *x) *server.speedLimit

// x: percentagethrusters (vs allBlocks) to reach max server speed.

thrust = t6*4 +t5*3.5 +t4*3 +t3*2 +t2*1

// t6/5 = thrusters with other thrusters on 6/5 sides.

// 2x2 to 5x5 thick thruster strips would be the preference of most players



targetBlockDamage = (thrust

/array.getNumberThrustersAtBack() /*from the array, not the ship.*/

/distance /*to thruster array*/

/block.armour



Lower thrust and more thruster surface (at back) = less damage.

More thrust and lower surface = more damage per "projectile".




Also "Neodyne-thrusters" would do damage only from maximum hp, but keep existing damage.

They can kill low-hp things, but only scratch hardened hull.

That makes dedicated landing shuttles or hardened docking platforms neccessary, if you don't want to kill terrain or damage your ship.

 

[Angus and Alexis]

I must go agasint this.

Big ships can have less acceleration, yes, less turn speed, yes, but NOT speed, last time i checked, a bottle rocket does not go as fast as a space shuttle, nor does a dune buggy go faster than a buggtti veyron.

Simply put, any object, regardless of size, can reach the same speed, but may take longer to reach said speed.

And again \"Larger engines work more effieciently\".

 

[firestar3637]

-1. While the block damage aspect of your idea sounds pretty cool, larger ships should always have a much higher maximum speed. The reason why cars can\'t go insanely fast on Earth is because they\'re going against the countless molecules in the air. If you take that away, or decrease it immensely, like it is in space, a larger engine will eventually overpower a smaller engine. This means that your average capital ship will eventually be going at speeds much higher than that of a fighter.

I do realize that bigger ships should have a slower acceleration and turn speed, unless you have an insane amount of thrusters on the bigger ship.

 

[Angus and Alexis]

As a nitpick, ships of ANY size should have the same maximum speed.

Having a larger engine means more ACCELERATION, not max speed (At least in space anyway).

However, a larger ship it total will have less acceleration due to it having far more MASS.

 

[Qweesdy]

Hi,

Acceleration is all about mass and thrust. More mass, more thrust, same acceleration.

Max. speed (in space, where there\'s no drag/air resistance) is all about \"E = m * c * c\". Loosely translated, this implies the closer your ship\'s speed gets to the speed of light the more mass it has (and the more mass it has, the more thrust you\'ll need to accelerate). At the speed of light it\'d take an infinite amount of thrust (energy) to go faster.

However; the universe is controlled by many laws. Some of the laws are made by humans. Laws made by humans tend to include things like speed limits to minimise the chance of collisions/accidents and improve safety.

Of course human laws have to be enforced. For example, you might have a large and expensive police force to catch people that break the law. The problem with that is the \"catching\" part - if someone is speeding you have to chase them, and if they notice they\'re being chased they\'re just going to go even faster. A much smarter (and cheaper) way would be to install speed governors on thrusters so that people can\'t break the law to begin with.

Basically, the \"government\" set a speed limit and force thruster manufacturers to install speed governors on thrusters. In StarMade, the government is the server owner, who sets the speed limit to minimise collisions for the sake of \"public safety\" (lag).

 

[NeonSturm]

Acceleration is all about mass and thrust. More mass, more thrust, same acceleration.


In my OP, thrust depends on surface on the back side of your ship!


Max. speed (in space, where there\'s no drag/air resistance) is all about \"E = m * c * c\".


Only above quantum level. Sub-quantum, FTL and Wormholes are not researched jet.

In some StarMade background stories, the LAG was created by time-travel experimens of desperate scientists.

Bigger engines (or many separated blocks) may confuse their neighbours, not that the reason is important.

 

[NeonSturm]

ship.maxSpeed = ship.thrusterBlocks / (ship.allBlocks *x /server.speedLimit)


For damage:


Not all of them - that would cause lag. Only the ones at the back of a thruster array.

 

[ltmauve]

And what if you have some sort of slope on the back of your ship where your thruster array is? If any part of the slope has more than 2 blocks, you wind up with permanent damage to your hull. And while you say, \"don\'t build inside ships\" giant blocks of thrusters look ugly. There is a reason most cosmetic builders rarely use the thruster blocks in visible locations - it can look horrible. I have seen a few good designs that have exposed thrusters, but I doubt that those desgins also had no concealed thrusters.

In other words, damage via thrusters = ugly ships.

 

[firestar3637]

Oh, sorry. I was thinking about some sci-fi shows at that time with warp drives and hyperspace. In those fictional cases, it just isn\'t possible for smaller ships to use those methods of travel.

If you use regular propulsion based off of newton\'s third law of motion, they both have the same maximum speed.

 

[NeonSturm]

They can skip up to 2 or 4 blocks to allow deko for thrusters. (output-Z-positions per xy is updated after leaving build mode)

Not all of them - that would cause lag. Only the ones at the back of a thruster array.




Do you guys read the OP completely?

Or just trying to downvote this?

 

[Angus and Alexis]

The entire idea makes no sense, and ruins the freedom of building.

No thanks.

 

[ltmauve]

Let me try again. Suppose the tail end of your ship has a sloped surface, and you fill it with engines. If the slope is 6 back then 1 down, you will wind up damaging your hull every time you fire your engines because there are more than 2 or 4 blocks behind them, even if the rest of the thrusters are exposed.

And also, look at the Talos engines. You wouldn\'t be able to do that sort of thing with your system. It stifles creativity for what gameplay balence? Now maybe there could be a type of thruster that causes damage to other structures, but it would have to have benefits because of that.

 

[NeonSturm]

Just the thrusters at the very back of your array fire.



If you have just one thruster of your array at the very back of your ship with 2-4 blocks behind, your ship will take no damage at all.

This layout only discurages fighter-usage, but fighters with their low size should have no issue with it.

If you need 20% of mass thrusters in your ship for max server speed and a fighter is 100m long with 500 mass, it has two 52m 3x3 thruster strips with power or shield around it aswell, it would have

• thrust: 2* (50*4 +(50*4+2)*3.5 +8*3 +0*2 +0*1) = 2* 426
• block damage: (2* 426) / (2* 9) thrusters at back = ~36 for each thruster at the very back.
• server speed: 936 / (500\'0 *0.20) *50 = 93.6% of 50

The only effect the very few (1) thrusters at back have is insane damage vs blocks..



Thrust formula favors thrusters in 2x2 or 3x3 pipe size, not a checkerboard design inbetween AMCs. But that is all about it.

 

[whiterhino16]

Even if you put them exposed, the front is rarely not covered and whean the fron of my radial engines go boom, that will feel like the games fault. There is a diffrence between \"makeing a balance\" and \"OMG THES SULD BLOW UP WHEAN YOU USE THEM LIEK MUST PPL DO LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!\"

Did I mention most of my ships have trusters on the back? I dont think the entire front end of the ship explodeing is very fun. Plus the defualt flame on the thuster in small quantities is good, a wall of little purple circles is an eyesore.

Oh wait, they make bigger ships go slow to? No matter how you tell the game, unless you put a limit it will be posible for ships perfectly thusted to not move at all.

 

[ltmauve]

Ah. So basically, it adds another item on a checklist to be done by players. Players who read the patch notes will put a line of thrusters to the end of the ship and call it a day. Meanwhile, anyone who doesn\'t know about the new mechanism will get confused when they keep wrecking the back of their ship. I really don\'t see how this makes larger ships go slower.

 

[NeonSturm]

Not larger. Ships with excessive thrusters.



Slower, because currently, efficency is almost exponential, not inverse exponential.

Slower if you can\'t reach max server speed, because you have less than 20% thrusters.

Slower if turret weight is added to your ship in the next release and you have less than 20% thrusters of your total mass.

 

[frizzank]

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Or

Force / Mass = Acceleration

I have no idea why this simple real world formula is not apart of Starmade. Even though this is a linear equation (1 thruster/1 block = 1 unit of acceleration) your mass increases exponentially since you are going to need power for your engines as well. This makes big ships get sluggish real quick. You could also tweak how much thrust each block provides to balance it out further. Also you could have diminishing returns on all of the blocks not just the weapons.

 

[NeonSturm]

Even though this is a linear equation (1 thruster/1 block = 1 unit of acceleration) your mass increases exponentially since you are going to need power for your engines as well


With docked reactors and power drain beams it is linear too.


Force / Mass = Acceleration


true, but currently:


Acceleration (Thrust) = Sum Of Dimensions - 3 + Blocks^1.125


Thus, according to the wiki 100 connected 10^3 cubes will have:

136..1017 + 421\'696.5 thrust.

While 100 single 10^3 thruster cubes will have:

3\'000 + 237\'137.37 thrust.

And 100\'000 single thrusters will have:

1+1+1 -3 + 1^1.125 * _100\'000_ thrust only.

10 More efficient thrusters in a row will give you roughly 20 thrust.

And now guessing someone want to know what 1 mille thrusters would give:

297..1kk + 5\'623\'413 thrust

And 10 mille (1kk mass) at a max length of 5km

7k + 74\'989\'421 thrust

For all peoples with no real live:

At 100 mille thrusters (10 mille mass), you get 10 thrust per block.



Summary:

10^3 cubes will give you 15% more than 10 long thruster lines.

100 of them connected will give you 76% bonus over 10^3 cubes.

Assuming max length will not be more than 2 sectors, 1 mille thrusters will give you 37% bonus over connected 10^3 cubes.

Multipling above with 10, you get 7.5 thrust per block, which is again 34% more.

Peoples with no real live get 50:1 thrust/mass with every second block being a thruster. I think it can work but it is desireable to have ships with 5k max speed and instant-accelleration?.

 

[ltmauve]

Um, what? You said that your thrusters were going to be more balenced since larger ships will go slower. Except you basically said that as long as 20% of the ship is thrusters, it can go max speed. That\'s not a problem for large ships to get 20% thrusters.

 

[Zovc]

Nosupprot, if I want to build a dammed shop with thrusters inside then I will build that. It makes sense bigger ships have more acceleration, they have more power to power bigger engines because more mass