Missiles and PD 2.0, Less spam moar balance

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    I think most players can agree that the ever increasing race of using 1 block missiles to overwhelm any ammount of point defense vs spamming an ever increasing ammount of PD entities on your ship simply isn't healthy or fun gameplay wise. Either your point defense is completly overwhelmed at little to no cost or you shoot down every missile without issue.
    This is merly ment to provoke thought, and possibly work on a valid solution to making missile play and counter play more engaging and balanced for both parties.

    To re-do missiles I would suggest something along the lines of:


    -Missiles now have HP values, whith their hp being tied to their damage via log growth. Thus different sized point defense turrets become standed practice [Fig 1]

    -Small point defense turrets gain increased accuracy, thus are easily and reliably able to hit missiles. The larger the point defense turret, the smaller the accuracy bonus (via either via game design or chambers). [Fig 2]

    -A new option is added to bobby AI moduals. They can be set to target Weakest/Strongest/Random and also Closest/Furtherst/Random. [Fig 3]

    -Missile damage upon impact is directly related to the % of HP remaining. This means that Point Defense can be used for damage mitigation even if they don't have enough damage to shoot it down. [Fig 4] Alternative would be reversing the HP/Dmage Log to make high damage missiles tougher as in [Fig 1]


    [Fig 1] Missle Damage setting missiles orgional HP

    [Fig 2] Turret accuracy bonus VS Mass/weapon size



    [Fig 3] New AI options


    [Fig 4] Direct Relationship between missile HP and the damage it deals on impact.
    (
    Alternative would be reversing the HP/Dmage Log to make high damage missiles tougher as in [Fig 1])

    What this acheives:


    -Large missile swarms of low output are easily delt with by a decent ammount of small point defense thanks to their increased accuracy.

    -Higher damage missiles that take substaial power no longer evapourate due to a no cost Point defense hit. (Think along the line with trying to shoot down a Balistic missile with a BB Gun, it might work fine for insects but not for large objects)

    -AI can be specificatly set to target their ideal 'target'. E.g you would want a 1-1 PD turret shooting at all the weak missile spam, not a large pulse 'nuke'. You can have your heavier PD turrets focusing down the heavier missiles instead of shooting at spam.

    -
    Various sized Point defense turrets will become common. Due to the Logorithmic curve for missile HP, there is essientialy a min HP and max HP (1 to x) they can have, thus players can easily plan their PD turrets around this since they know how much damage a turret needs to haveto kill various sized missiles.

    -
    Large missiles HP will eassientialy 'cap out' due to the log growth to prevent extremly high damage missiles not being able to be shot down. This allows players to build PD turrets around this.

    -
    Missile damage on impact relates to missile HP on impact. This results in Point Defense being able to to mitigate damage even if they dont have enough damage to kill it.


    _____________________________________________________________________________

    Potiential Q and A:

    -Wouldn't this prevent missile spam?
    I would hope so. Still I think being able to overwhelm their point defense should be a thing, however should require actual system investment rather than 100 1/1 missile outlets.

    -Doesn't this make missiles useless?
    That is not the intention. Larger PD turrets do not recive accuracy bonuses and would need to deal noticeable damage to knock out a 3 mill damage missile. Doing so would require some larger spcealised Point Defense turrets set to target large missiles.

    -Wouldn't this cause performance issues?
    That is not the intention. Each missile would recive an extra value upon creation alongside where it's damage is recorded called hp. When hit, instead of being destroyed it's damage is applied to the HP pool. When the missile impacts the hp modifier is applied before damage is calculated. The performance impact would be minnor, especially compared to the lag from missile spam currently.

    Feedback is appreciated, with other systems such as Shielding and power being re-vamped I feel that this aspect of gameplay also needs an update.
     

    Non

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    I get your idea, I've considered this before, but the problem is that people are lazy. There are very effective missile defenses in the game, primarily actively shooting them down, and being fast enough to dodge and reduce hits. Pd works against the majority of not spammy ships, and to make it works to some degree against all ships might be nice. Nothing against you or your motivation for posting this, its a fine idea, but most people are just too lazy or don't care enough to use more active defenses (there is some skill required, but its not like its impossible to develop that skill) that work better than pd that are in the game. I say that if they can't be bothered to rely on player skill for active missile defence, don't reinforce that behavior by letting them have better passive defences.
     
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    -A new option is added to bobby AI modules. They can be set to target Weakest/Strongest/Random and also Closest/Furthest/Random. [Fig 3] .......to mitigate recalculations as entities receive damage/move, this could be a periodic check (eg 10seconds?) rather than on the fly calculation
    [doublepost=1509020062,1509019963][/doublepost]"but most people are just too lazy or don't care enough to use more active defenses" > is this really true?...and if so are these the people the game is being made for?
     
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    -A new option is added to bobby AI modules. They can be set to target Weakest/Strongest/Random and also Closest/Furthest/Random. [Fig 3] .......to mitigate recalculations as entities receive damage/move, this could be a periodic check (eg 10seconds?) rather than on the fly calculation
    [doublepost=1509020062,1509019963][/doublepost]"but most people are just too lazy or don't care enough to use more active defenses" > is this really true?...and if so are these the people the game is being made for?
    Good points.
    I would've thought that it would check avalible targets, select the closest/furtherst then fire at it until it is destroyed/cannot fire at it any longer, then select a new target. I think PD does that already?
    Doesnt increase calculations at all if I understand it correctly. It is already selecting a random target, this just changes that part of the code slightly.

    I don't really get what he means by activate defenses? A large ship cannot dodge or shoot down missiles manualy, and has to rely on strong shields and point defense. Having viable counters that require investment for damage mitigation is an essiential part of building imo.
     
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    Thread from 2 years ago, and thread from 1 and a half years ago.
    There has been no change or disscusion from the devs since then.
    Forgotten? Most likely or simply not considered important by them, which is a shame.
    The Dev Squad doesnt even read the forums most of the time in the first place, look at the amount of suggestions that don't even have a "Read by" tag on em

    But resurrecting an old discussion to try and bring it to the attention of the devs is fair enough, heck i've done it a few times myself. I am just pointing out that it has been discussed already and nothing more.
     
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    The Dev Squad doesnt even read the forums most of the time in the first place, look at the amount of suggestions that don't even have a "Read by" tag on em

    But resurrecting an old discussion to try and bring it to the attention of the devs is fair enough, heck i've done it a few times myself. I am just pointing out that it has been discussed already and nothing more.
    Just wanted an excuse to show off my amazing Paint 3D skills *Blushes quietly in the corner* :P

    I also like to pretty up my posts so that they're more friendly as well, I don't think most people, especialy devs like reading a blob of grey text imo.
     

    Non

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    I don't really get what he means by activate defenses? A large ship cannot dodge or shoot down missiles manualy, and has to rely on strong shields and point defense. Having viable counters that require investment for damage mitigation is an essiential part of building imo.
    That is part of what balances out large ships, that because of their size they are more vulnerable to missiles, which I believe is entirely fair. Ships in the 100-200k range are still capable of this if designed half decently. People complain about big ships being too powerful and they complain about them being too weak. Secondly, "viable counters that require investment" slapping pd turrets on a hull requires little to no mass or power investment, it just tends to make the ship a little bit uglier, and because a bigger ship will in most cases have more real estate for pd, they will see more benefit than smaller ones, balancing out active defences, which were themselves a balance for size.
     
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    That is part of what balances out large ships, that because of their size they are more vulnerable to missiles, which I believe is entirely fair. Ships in the 100-200k range are still capable of this if designed half decently. People complain about big ships being too powerful and they complain about them being too weak. Secondly, "viable counters that require investment" slapping pd turrets on a hull requires little to no mass or power investment, it just tends to make the ship a little bit uglier, and because a bigger ship will in most cases have more real estate for pd, they will see more benefit than smaller ones, balancing out active defences, which were themselves a balance for size.
    Have you ever spent 5 hours attachting Point defense turrets to your ship? Even if a couple get shot off they are an absolute pain to re-attach -_- Ergh I wish there were easier ways, 90% of the time if a turret gets shot off I just respawn the whole ship.
     

    Non

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    Have you ever spent 5 hours attachting Point defense turrets to your ship? Even if a couple get shot off they are an absolute pain to re-attach -_- Ergh I wish there were easier ways, 90% of the time if a turret gets shot off I just respawn the whole ship.
    No, because that is a ridiculous exaggeration, my largest ship, a 220k, has 24 three entity pd turrets, under low lag non spammy conditions, that is more than enough to eliminate threats, that took me max 10 minutes to mount them, very little time compared to that spent on constructing the actual ship. If you are using more than that, please stop, if you are taking considerably longer than that for a similar number of turrets, please ask someone how the game works.

    This was decently condescending but the point you just tried to make was awful.
    [doublepost=1509023108,1509022769][/doublepost]Please, elaborate on that disagree, tell me what it is about my response you disagree with?
     
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    i think we are agreed there is some scope for better gameplay with missiles - and yes turret fitting can be a pain, especially on a sever, but that is not really the point here. I could think of all kinds of ways to make missiles more complex - i guess it is in the end dependent on the calculation load when many missiles begin to behave more like other 'formal entities'
     
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    No, because that is a ridiculous exaggeration, my largest ship, a 220k, has 24 three entity pd turrets, under low lag non spammy conditions, that is more than enough to eliminate threats, that took me max 10 minutes to mount them, very little time compared to that spent on constructing the actual ship. If you are using more than that, please stop, if you are taking considerably longer than that for a similar number of turrets, please ask someone how the game works.

    This was decently condescending but the point you just tried to make was awful.
    [doublepost=1509023108,1509022769][/doublepost]Please, elaborate on that disagree, tell me what it is about my response you disagree with?
    I must have a terrible time with turrets then :/ They always seem to end up rotating in reverse, getting stuck on something invisble, refusing to fire or even just randomly de-docking and catapulting my ship around. Attaching turrets became vastly quicker when I discovered the T2Ship command. Still, I think the game hates me, I'll spend 2 hours designing an elaborate turret only for it to be facing backwards -_-
    Even then constaly spawning and trying to attach point defens turrets feels like a real chore to me. You must be a god to get them all on in 10 mins without issues o_O

    If anything the problem is me XD
    My appologies.
     

    Non

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    I must have a terrible time with turrets then :/ They always seem to end up rotating in reverse, getting stuck on something invisble, refusing to fire or even just randomly de-docking and catapulting my ship around. Attaching turrets became vastly quicker when I discovered the T2Ship command. Still, I think the game hates me, I'll spend 2 hours designing an elaborate turret only for it to be facing backwards -_-
    Even then constaly spawning and trying to attach point defens turrets feels like a real chore to me. You must be a god to get them all on in 10 mins without issues o_O

    If anything the problem is me XD
    My appologies.
    This is just about the best possible way a person could respond to continue a meaningful discussion on this topic, and I salute you for it.
    [doublepost=1509025670,1509025112][/doublepost]Honestly, one of the best ways to improve pd would be to allow more weapon types to hit missiles, cause i think its just cannons right now.

    Beams, which ai has pretty good accuracy with would allow better long range missile takedown in the case of b/b and more accurate short range takedown with b/c, or at least to my understanding it would. Seeing missiles shoot down missiles would be interesting too.
     
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    Great suggestions. I'm not completely sold on the nonlinear growth of missile health though. Surely, the more obscenely large a missile gets, the more HP it should have in perfectly linear proportion? What could be done is make so that the size of weapon you need to shoot down a beam-missile is only 1/3 or 1/4 the size of the missile group, maybe even less than that. In essence, you'd need some heavy combined firepower to bring down a capital class torpedo that would realistically be the size of a small frigate, but it would be much more cost efficient than the launcher itself. What happens otherwise is, making missiles above a certain size simply isn't worth it. It feels a little limiting, although i can understand the incentive (a large enough missile is often a one hit kill weapon).

    And of course, another issue is often you'd need your main weapons to deal with a very large missile, but they might be set to target ships. To solve this something more could also be done with the AI options: what if you could select Ships, Missiles or Ships&Missiles? The Ships&Missiles option would let you set a missile size threshold above which the AI will switch to killing missiles, and once no missiles large enough are in range it switches back to targeting ships.
     
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    with the missles shooting down missles i have an inkling of an idea for it, taking this idea partially from FTD, but why not allow missles to detonate when close enough to a hostile missle and have it kill it... give the missle a buff when it hits another missle
     
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    -Missiles now have HP values, whith their hp being tied to their damage via log growth. Thus different sized point defense turrets become standed practice [Fig 1]
    I believe Schine already has plans to do this. I have deep misgivings about this decision though, as it favors the ship that can carry the biggest missile. Unless duel use turrets are possible by a special bobby setting or toggle within the systems menu, entity counts for ships are going to grow out of control, especially if you need dedicated AMTs for different missile size ranges. Currently, unless your very large, very slow or both, missiles are not the best way to damage your enemy. Regardless of the particulars, it's important that smaller ships have a place within a fight. Giving missiles their own large number of HP based on the the total block size would be a disaster and further the problem of titanmade.
     
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    And of course, another issue is often you'd need your main weapons to deal with a very large missile, but they might be set to target ships. To solve this something more could also be done with the AI options: what if you could select Ships, Missiles or Ships&Missiles? The Ships&Missiles option would let you set a missile size threshold above which the AI will switch to killing missiles, and once no missiles large enough are in range it switches back to targeting ships.
    How about a priority list for AI targeting instead of just selecting what you want it to concentrate on. Sort of like the new power priority system with the dev power update.
     
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    I believe Schine already has plans to do this. I have deep misgivings about this decision though, as it favors the ship that can carry the biggest missile. Unless duel use turrets are possible by a special bobby setting or toggle within the systems menu, entity counts for ships are going to grow out of control, especially if you need dedicated AMTs for different missile size ranges. Currently, unless your very large, very slow or both, missiles are not the best way to damage your enemy. Regardless of the particulars, it's important that smaller ships have a place within a fight. Giving missiles their own large number of HP based on the the total block size would be a disaster and further the problem of titanmade.
    Thats why I suggested the relationship be logorithmic, as to essientialy cap missile HP. You can already create duel turrets btw :P
     
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    duel turrets
    Dual USE turrets. As in, a turret that will fire both like a main weapon and like an anti-missile system, depending of various factors.

    How about a priority list for AI targeting instead of just selecting what you want it to concentrate on. Sort of like the new power priority system with the dev power update.
    That could be great, so long as they don't make it overly complicated. There's not a lot of factors that go into whether i want to shoot down a missile or not (can i kill it / will i survive the fight if i don't)