Missiles: An exercise in frustration

[Esarai]

Hello all,

I wanted to share a few thoughts I've been having on the current state of missile mechanics in the game. At the moment, they are an incredibly useful tool with an irritating and sometimes nigh-impossible to use mechanic.

My frustration starts first off with how missile locks are attained: you have to hold your reticle over the same ship for 10 or so seconds. At first, this seems pretty good, but what happens when another ship flies behind or in front of your prey? Whoops, sorry, no more lock for you. This becomes increasingly noticeable in intense battle situations where the field is littered with targets. So yay, I have a fast strike bomber that can't bomb anything because the game thinks I'm changing targets when it's just someone else moving! I would like to see missiles only lock on to the target you currently have selected. Still have to acquire locks by keeping them zeroed, but no more 'can't get a lock because the game can't tell who you want to shoot.'

Immediately, this would make missiles INSANELY overpowered. Point and click death (which is basically what the AI currently have so really there shouldn't be too much complaint but I digress). So, how do we balance the new precision? My answer is two-fold. 1.) Scaled lock-on times and 2.) missile turn times.

1.) To prevent someone from whacking fighters and other fast vessels out of the sky, make it so the ratio of the target's mass to the mass of the missile system scales the time it takes to lock on. Gonna hit a little fighter with a 10 million damage missile? Hehehehe have fun trying to lock on for 60 seconds. Going to use a small missile against a small fighter? Okay, lock in 5. The best part is that the values for min and max lock-on could be set by server admins, along with the scale factor.

2.) All missiles currently have the same turn radius. Doesn't matter if they're superfast anti-fighter missiles or world-shattering pulse bombs, they all have the same maneuverability. This should change. Heavier missiles should take longer to turn, reflecting their size and damage potential. This way, people aren't using ICBMs to swat scout fighters.

The end result of these three changes (lock only selected target, scale lock-on time and scale turn radius) will help balance combat between ships of different classes, will make for a more enjoyable combat experience, and will increase player combat efficiency.

Several other ideas that should be considered are free-look targeting, anti-missile systems and HUD warnings. Right now, captains can use free-look to target hostile vessels while not aiming at them. With the current mechanics, any ship carrying missiles is instantly superior to anything else on the field, because it no longer needs to maneuver to be effective. This is being patched out in the upcoming release, but I am sad to see it go, because removing it forces capital ships to fight like fighters, which feels ridiculous. Missile turn radius would prevent free-look locking from being as overpowered. Anti-missile systems could also mitigate the free-look locking problem, and keep missiles from being king on the battlefield. HUD warnings would be nice to have, that way players can know when they're targeted by a missile system, and when missiles are inbound. This could open the door for player-controlled countermeasures, as well as giving players greater situational awareness.

These are my thoughts on the matter, feel free to discuss, post your own, question and have fun.

(And just tacking this on the end, could we please reduce the size of the hud arrows, and enlarge the one you currently have targeted? It would make things a lot less confusing and easier to interpret/use)

 

[Amc088]

*/bump

 

[Asmael]

About how the missile system tries to lock on the target you're currently looking at (and not always the one you targeted), it works against someone using a radar jammer, but if you are required to target your enemy, then lock it, it would also mean that lockOn missiles are inefficient against ships using radar jammers.

As for missiles in PvP... I can't really judge (don't get the opportunity as much as I'd like). However AIs are just plain monstruous with those, compared to AMCs and Beams.

Now... about this part...

Several other ideas that should be considered are free-look targeting, anti-missile systems and HUD warnings.

Mostly interested in anti-missiles systems and HUD warnings here.

First part, do you have a more specific idea on the matter? Possibly, if we can avoid a "moar blocks 2 win" that would work for capital ships, that'd be good.

HUD warnings... mmh, Not really sure about this one, if you're getting swarmed to hell, that'll mostly spam your HUD. I'll go as far as saying "Maybe, depending on what it looks like ingame and after testing".

Now, about 1) Scaled Lock-Ons: Why not. No real opinion on that one. About 2) Missile turn times, I'd be Ok for decreasing the maneuvability a bit, as it's very hard to dodge missiles, even for a small fighter. To be considered.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

This is why you need multiple weapons systems on ships. It is also why turrets are a good idea to put on missile ships.
Especially in the new update did missiles get even more powerful with their increase in range. And it isn't 10'seconds, more like 3-5. And missiles can do a lot of damage when the shields are already down (their main use). I have the feeling that other people will also see it the way I do.

Turrets really are a good idea for you btw: if you were to place a camera at the back, and then use that camera to select that enemy, the turrets should fire at that enemy first. Then you can lock-on to the enemy and fire your missile.

 

[Ithirahad]

Not bad ideas at all... But yeah, from my experience it isn't -that- bad. Just takes a bit of skill, usually, and varied weapons systems. Don't rely on onboard lockon missiles for everything. Ever. Try turrets.

 

[Esarai]

First part, do you have a more specific idea on the matter? Possibly, if we can avoid a "moar blocks 2 win" that would work for capital ships, that'd be good.

HUD warnings... mmh, Not really sure about this one, if you're getting swarmed to hell, that'll mostly spam your HUD. I'll go as far as saying "Maybe, depending on what it looks like ingame and after testing".

Now, about 1) Scaled Lock-Ons: Why not. No real opinion on that one. About 2) Missile turn times, I'd be Ok for decreasing the maneuvability a bit, as it's very hard to dodge missiles, even for a small fighter. To be considered.

Thanks for pointing out the bit about radarjammers, Asmael, I hadn't considered that. I think the cloaking systems themselves need an overhaul, but that's a different thread.

As for AMS, we could do a lot of things. First could be a turret that targets and attempts to shoot down incoming missiles. Another form could be player-controlled decoys that draw missiles away from your ship while they're active, but the missile resumes course once the decoy has expended itself. Could also do a pulse system that disables missiles caught in its radius. This one would require some form of hud indication so that players can judge when to hit the pulse. It could be possible to use the dimensions of the craft to determine how easily it can be tracked by a missile in-flight, and so a heavier ship would require a heavier countermeasure to compensate.

In regards to HUD displays, I wasn't thinking 'a blip for each missile.' While it would be nice to know where the missiles are, that would be insane given how many are likely to be flying at you and considering the current size of hud arrows. I was thinking of a general warning, <LOCKED> and <INCOMING MISSILE> that appear when their respective conditions are met, kinda like Radar Warning Receivers on modern military aircraft.

This is why you need multiple weapons systems on ships. It is also why turrets are a good idea to put on missile ships.

Turrets really are a good idea for you btw: if you were to place a camera at the back, and then use that camera to select that enemy, the turrets should fire at that enemy first. Then you can lock-on to the enemy and fire your missile.

Not bad ideas at all... But yeah, from my experience it isn't -that- bad. Just takes a bit of skill, usually, and varied weapons systems. Don't rely on onboard lockon missiles for everything. Ever. Try turrets.

I'm not going for a missile-only ship, having multiple weapons is always a good idea. I'm coming from the perspective of smaller craft built for hit and run attacks where turrets would be unseemly, and hoping to help shift the combat balance away from capital ships, give smaller combatants a more appreciable combat role and a greater chance at surviving, and to give players capabilities similar to that of turrets. It doesn't sit well with me that turrets are so much better at using missiles to the point where the optimal solution is 'let the turrets handle it.' It feels like the missile mechanics are being taken away from players when the game is better than the player.

As for skill, the number of times I've tracked a target unerringly, aiming at the same spot only to have a wayward drone or turret fly right through my reticle and break my lock is beyond count. It doesn't feel like something that needs skill given the best way to do it is 'wait until no one is in the way,' or 'change navigation settings until you don't have to aim.' Against tightly clustered turret arrays, skill doesn't make a difference. Aim at the same spot, cycle through 4-6 different turrets just by moving 5-10 pixels. It makes precision bombing the domain of AI-only ships, and I'd like to see all combat roles viable for players.

The change to lock-on mechanics may be too overpowered, we'd have to test. I still think changing missile lock-on time and flight behavior to scale with the specifications of the weapon system would be worthwhile for the daredevils who like fighter combat.

 

[NeonSturm]

For me, lock-on reduces dps. You have to lock-on before the cool-down finished. That is why I will almost never use it
(yes, instead put it on turrets :/ because there you worry less about as a 1000dmg missile does not hinder your 10'000 dmg cannons while locking on).


I like how weapon ranges got standardized. How they are mod-able only by placing blocks.

But I hate this: link m1=m -> m2=slave, fire, relink m2=m -> m1=s, fire again, relink to first, see the computer still cooling down.

This is not what you are supposed to do in a battle (buffs dps by 2).
Slave-controllers should be set to an equal cool-down (even if they could never get such a big cd on their own)​

Because we are talking about missiles (reload=15 seconds) I think it is a valid on-topic fact that above prevents admins from setting 5-minute reload for missiles.



What I would really like missiles to become/have:

Missile computers should also be able to link docks.
How the docked ship is built defines stats (somebody else suggested this earlier).

array cool-down = ship.mass / array.mass
missile cool-down = ship.mass / docking-enhancers.mass (small ships may dock missiles below their wings in long/tall areas => external weapons)
missile damage = ship.dis-integrators * balancingMultiplier
missile acceleration, speed = ship.thrusters.averageLength * balancingMultiplier
missile turn = ship.thrusters / (acceleration,speed) * balancingMultiplier
...
Missile max range = equal to the default weapon range of the slave computer. Missiles without slave should have 2000.
Missile damage *mult = (max range)^0.5 / (missile range)^0.5​

Then you basically can balance missile turn/speed, ... the same as for ships and don't need other balance formulas.

The same could work for cannons - the slave only decides the range.​

Option: Add 1/xx of the array size to the mass of ships when calculating cool-down to prevent big launchers spamming small missiles, while requiring array size to be >= missile size to prevent small launching big.



If you have 1 array and 2 missiles, you can choose between these by linking a dock (but that takes time - especially if you have too many and have to find the dock) or add multiple selections the hotbar or have another key for switching between missiles, ...

It may be that the array can fire, but your dock is on cool-down.
Then you can still fire another missile.​

 

[Ithirahad]

Thanks for pointing out the bit about radarjammers, Asmael, I hadn't considered that. I think the cloaking systems themselves need an overhaul, but that's a different thread.

As for AMS, we could do a lot of things. First could be a turret that targets and attempts to shoot down incoming missiles. Another form could be player-controlled decoys that draw missiles away from your ship while they're active, but the missile resumes course once the decoy has expended itself. Could also do a pulse system that disables missiles caught in its radius. This one would require some form of hud indication so that players can judge when to hit the pulse. It could be possible to use the dimensions of the craft to determine how easily it can be tracked by a missile in-flight, and so a heavier ship would require a heavier countermeasure to compensate.

In regards to HUD displays, I wasn't thinking 'a blip for each missile.' While it would be nice to know where the missiles are, that would be insane given how many are likely to be flying at you and considering the current size of hud arrows. I was thinking of a general warning, <LOCKED> and <INCOMING MISSILE> that appear when their respective conditions are met, kinda like Radar Warning Receivers on modern military aircraft.





I'm not going for a missile-only ship, having multiple weapons is always a good idea. I'm coming from the perspective of smaller craft built for hit and run attacks where turrets would be unseemly, and hoping to help shift the combat balance away from capital ships, give smaller combatants a more appreciable combat role and a greater chance at surviving, and to give players capabilities similar to that of turrets. It doesn't sit well with me that turrets are so much better at using missiles to the point where the optimal solution is 'let the turrets handle it.' It feels like the missile mechanics are being taken away from players when the game is better than the player.

As for skill, the number of times I've tracked a target unerringly, aiming at the same spot only to have a wayward drone or turret fly right through my reticle and break my lock is beyond count. It doesn't feel like something that needs skill given the best way to do it is 'wait until no one is in the way,' or 'change navigation settings until you don't have to aim.' Against tightly clustered turret arrays, skill doesn't make a difference. Aim at the same spot, cycle through 4-6 different turrets just by moving 5-10 pixels. It makes precision bombing the domain of AI-only ships, and I'd like to see all combat roles viable for players.

The change to lock-on mechanics may be too overpowered, we'd have to test. I still think changing missile lock-on time and flight behavior to scale with the specifications of the weapon system would be worthwhile for the daredevils who like fighter combat.

...Then I think what you need, friend, is rapid missiles, preferably with overdrive. Locking missiles are good for certain things, but they aren't supposed to be the end-all-be-all of missiles - which is good, a missile that can track people can easily become somewhat OP.

 

[ltmauve]

First, the parts about turn scaling and lock-on times are good.
AMS, I have two ideas.
One is a constant effect, (PD laser) missiles close to you have a chance to be destroyed, depending on the size. This only affects missiles within 100-150m of you (so it really can't be used on a small ship)
The other is an instant effect (Scrambler) that is much more likely to work, it would cause missiles to loose lock and become dumbfires. Instant means it fires like the weapons, you click and it pulses. It would have a greater range, but require more power (so you can't just hold the mouse down)
I'm not sure what the offensive effect would be or anything like that.

 

[Malacodor]

I agree that the current locking system is a pain in a random body part. Modern fighters can simultaneously lock on over a dozen targets and attack as many of them as they have missiles. So compared to reality the missile mechanics in-game is quite medieval.

Fighters could be protected by countermeasures.

 

[Lecic]

Excellent ideas. Especially locking on to what entity you have selected on your HUD. Ships with lots of turrets make it impossible to lock on.

 

[NeonSturm]

Ships with lots of turrets make it impossible to lock on.

Press N (navigation menu), Click FILTER, uncheck Turrets and docked ships.

@Lecic, sry my fault. I read it as "impossible to select target" your right.

 

[Lecic]

Press N (navigation menu), Click FILTER, uncheck Turrets and docked ships.

This may have changed, but last time I checked, even if docked things are turned off, lock on missiles will still try and lock onto them.

 

[Snk]

Beautiful idea, +1 to the thread and your existence.

 

[Keptick]

Don't rely on onboard lockon missiles for everything. Ever. Try turrets.

Uh
>_> ... <_<
I never did that!!! Swarm missiles instead of turrets for the win!!!

Seriously, though. I think that the missile mass/agility suggestion alone would be enough. Well, only if the targeting system gets fixed, of course.

 

[Ithirahad]

This may have changed, but last time I checked, even if docked things are turned off, lock on missiles will still try and lock onto them.

Yerp.