Planned Missile Lock Alert

[Spartan-228]

I think it would be good to add an alert that would let a pilot know when someone has acquired missile lock on them.

 

[wolfboyft]

Binks. (That means yes. You see, In Star Wars, there's something/someone called Jaja Binks. And after halving the first half of his name, you have yourself with a Ja. Which means yes.)

Therefore, YES!

 

[Jay_do]

Well sure I don't see why not. They do it in real life. It would give a little time to react in a ambush/betrayal scenario.

 

[destwoy]

Adding this feature would be a great idea and very helpful to all starmade players, having a missile lock alert would give you time to escape or start a counter attack quickly on someone, very good idea!

 

[Lukwan]

Agreed. There could also be alarms for enemy boarders detected & hostile transports inside your ship and for shields dropping.

Direction indicator for incoming (heavy) fire would also help.

 

[jayman38]

Not to mention that lock-on warning klaxons are fun, engaging, and make the game more immersive. Contrast that with a new player getting slapped to death by a nuke out of nowhere. (How many millions of Dave's must be lost to Pirate Alpha Stations before this is implemented? Won't someone please think of the children?)

 

[Comradecolonel]

I want this so much. My head would explode from joy.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

well there is a missile lock warning sound effect in the files. its not out of the realm of possibility for this to be added in the future

 

[DukeofRealms]

Yep, I like this idea a lot. Surprised I didn't see it when it was posted...

 

[Jasper1991]

Any reason why we should have a missile early warning system other than "it would be a good idea"?

Your proposition will cause an end to Stealth and Ambush Combat, you would seek to completely nerf the ability to conduct any form of hit and run sneak attacks, Missiles are the best alpha damage and the longest range, so they are frequently used for alpha strike hit and attacks, giving people a warning that they are being locked onto with a missile completely kills the point of even using stealth to get into an optimal position for taking out a vessel with missiles. Cannons, beams and damage pulse cannot preform this role.

Missiles to not need to be nerfed, they already have considerable drawbacks that steers lots of players away from using them

They take extreme amounts of power and power capacity, a small ship can use cannons without the need to place any power capacitors, and yet any small ship in order for a missile to be effective would REQUIRE a large amount of capacitors, removing space for other system components.

They have TERRIBLE sustained DPS, they have good alpha damage but they cannot sustain a constant damage stream unlike other weapons.

The missile projectiles are extremely slow, the amount of time from when you fire a missile to when it actually takes down a target at typical engagement ranges is about 15 seconds, assuming that said missile is not shot down by point defense systems.



Overall, a lock on warning has very little benefits and kills 2 forms of combat in StarMade, the only other form on combat in StarMade is big ship vs big ship slugfest, and we all know the problems with that.

 

[Heillos]

Certain factions' amusingly strong interests in missile-based combat aside, Jasper raises a good point.

I like this idea, but it requires some caveats. If the ship locking onto you is jammed or cloaked (or both) no alert should be played, and you should remain unaware. This keeps ambush combat entirely viable, while still letting this serve a useful purpose as a warning for vessels who are already engaged (or are about to be engaged) in open combat. In particular, small vessels or most civilian vessels would find this warning valuable so that they may attempt to evade damage.

 

[MacThule]

I agree with this suggestion... for like the tenth time, lol. Wonder if they'll ever do it.

 

[jayman38]

Stealth attack from long-range missiles? It doesn't make sense that ships can't detect missiles from a distance.

Maybe keep the missile undetected as long as it is in the same sector as the firing stealth ship. However, as soon as it is outside the sector-of-influence, light up the target's missile detection stuff. Even if there is detection, that doesn't always equate to evasion.

Missile detection would lead to a closer-range sneak attack meta, which I think makes more sense anyway.

 

[Jasper1991]

Stealth attack from long-range missiles? It doesn't make sense that ships can't detect missiles from a distance.

Maybe keep the missile undetected as long as it is in the same sector as the firing stealth ship. However, as soon as it is outside the sector-of-influence, light up the target's missile detection stuff. Even if there is detection, that doesn't always equate to evasion.

Missile detection would lead to a closer-range sneak attack meta, which I think makes more sense anyway.

Actually it would make MORE sense for missiles to be undetectable at longer ranges, ever heard of the Kh-101, Kh-102 or the CVS401 Perseus?

I just mentioned 3 stealth cruise missiles, low radar cross section and by the time you detect it the missile has already reached its target and detonated, the Kh-102 carries a nuclear warhead and the others carry more conventional warheads.

Keep in mind that these are cruise missiles, so they are bigger than missiles in StarMade and fly faster, StarMade missiles would be even less detectable because they would have a smaller radar cross section and are much slower, a StarMade missile tripping off any radar system is practically impossible.



So no, missile warning systems are a stupid idea, the most beneficial feature of missiles is range, otherwise they have drawbacks in almost every other aspect. By telling people that a missile attack is imminent, you kill any possibility for long range combat, even outside of stealth tactics.


In response to the "close range meta" if you are going into knife fighting range with a stealth ship then you may as well have no stealth and you may as well use a cannon or beam, because they are both more effective at close range then missiles, even before this proposed missile nerf.





If you want a missile defense system, then point defense turrets does the job fine, we do not need another missile nerf.​

 

[jayman38]

Actually it would make MORE sense for missiles to be undetectable at longer ranges, ever heard of the Kh-101, Kh-102 or the CVS401 Perseus?

I just mentioned 3 stealth cruise missiles, low radar cross section and by the time you detect it the missile has already reached its target and detonated, the Kh-102 carries a nuclear warhead and the others carry more conventional warheads.

Keep in mind that these are cruise missiles, so they are bigger than missiles in StarMade and fly faster, StarMade missiles would be even less detectable because they would have a smaller radar cross section and are much slower, a StarMade missile tripping off any radar system is practically impossible.



So no, missile warning systems are a stupid idea, the most beneficial feature of missiles is range, otherwise they have drawbacks in almost every other aspect. By telling people that a missile attack is imminent, you kill any possibility for long range combat, even outside of stealth tactics.


In response to the "close range meta" if you are going into knife fighting range with a stealth ship then you may as well have no stealth and you may as well use a cannon or beam, because they are both more effective at close range then missiles, even before this proposed missile nerf.





If you want a missile defense system, then point defense turrets does the job fine, we do not need another missile nerf.​

Cruise missiles are equivalent to what we call "Torpedoes". That is, auto-guided ships with warheads. So you'd like an AI-usable cloaking device. That's a fine suggestion on its own. AI use of cloaks would probably need a mass limit, but that's another thread for another day.

Detection in the current era relies primarily on radar. However, in space, thermal detection and optical detection are also significant. (With optics, not only do you have to hide yourself, but you have to project the image of what's behind you. Detecting background distortions, such as bent starlight, provides significant information on dark elements, such as black holes and dark matter.)

If a missile is going to avoid detection, assuming that the missile is small enough to not worry about background distortion, the thrust material would have to be absolute zero, which might explain Starmade's missile sluggishness.

You call missile warning systems stupid. I call it fun. It brings missiles into the main fight and gives the player a chance to react, instead of treating missiles as a sniper weapon.

However, to prevent overwhelming defeat of the missiles by AMS, a missile warning system probably needs to be implemented alongside a missile HP update, so that heavier missile systems can withstand one or two extra AMS hits before detonating, to give them a chance to penetrate the AMS defense after detection.

This will increase the use of creative missile systems, such as swarm decoys. I think that would make fights even more fun.

I would also recommend that missile warning systems have a server configuration so that they can be turned off, so you can have servers with the classic non-detection behavior. However, for the vanilla game, I think early warning would be generally more fun for more people.

 

[Lukwan]

Overall, a lock on warning has very little benefits and kills 2 forms of combat in StarMade, the only other form on combat in StarMade is big ship vs big ship slugfest, and we all know the problems with that.

As sarge would say: "settle down Francis". Hyperbole aside, this is a very reasonable thing to properly distinguish 'Homing' missiles.

First off, no, this would not negate stealth tactics. Think about it; the alarm is only going to go off after you have achieved a' lock-on' not just because you are tracking your target waiting for the lock. So your first salvo is going to be in transit before your 'surprise' is ruined.

Second of all, if you are cloaked & jammed you can get right up on someone to deliver your missiles or torpedoes as...wait for it...rockets (dumb-fire). Also heat-seekers do not actively ping targets so that is an option too. Each of these variations on missiles (homing, heat-seeking, rockets & torpedoes) have distinctive advantages and disadvantages and are not meant as a one-size-fits-all solution for your combat needs. It just so happens that homing missiles have been getting a free ride so far. There are also countless other weapon options for effective stealth tactics so don't host a funeral for stealth combat just yet.

The only thing that might get nerfed is someones ability to one-shot an alpha-strike weapon at long range, without warning. That is not something worth preserving. Submariners are a crafty lot because stealth is never going to be cake-walk.

[I would approve of the no-alarm policy if target-painting was introduced and used.]
[doublepost=1480000370,1479999829][/doublepost]

I would also recommend that missile warning systems have a server configuration so that they can be turned off, so you can have servers with the classic non-detection behavior. However, for the vanilla game, I think early warning would be generally more fun for more people.

I'm OK with being able to turn off warnings as a server choice, but still the alarm should be a default for homing missiles lock-on.

 

[Jasper1991]

Cruise missiles are equivalent to what we call "Torpedoes". That is, auto-guided ships with warheads. So you'd like an AI-usable cloaking device. That's a fine suggestion on its own. AI use of cloaks would probably need a mass limit, but that's another thread for another day.

You have clearly avoided the entire point behind me mentioning stealth cruise missiles, the principles behind stealth cruise missiles like the Kh-101 are not exclusive to cruise missiles, the principles that allow stealth cruise missiles to work can be applied to anything that has a radar cross section.

Detection in the current era relies primarily on radar. However, in space, thermal detection and optical detection are also significant. (With optics, not only do you have to hide yourself, but you have to project the image of what's behind you. Detecting background distortions, such as bent starlight, provides significant information on dark elements, such as black holes and dark matter.)

Thermal Imaging will not work in space!

Typical thermal imaging systems can detect temperatures between -4ºF and 2200ºF, space has a temperate of -445ºF, that temperature is low enough to cool down small objects (such as missiles) to below the threshold of thermal detection very quickly, I say again, thermal imaging will not work in space (with the exception of perhaps detecting large astronomical heat signatures that radiate from things such as stars)


And I am assuming that when you say optical detection you mean visual detection, if you consider the size of missiles in StarMade relative to the speed of said missiles (slow in the great scheme of things but fast for its size) then even computer aided visual detection systems will have a LOT of difficulty detection any small object moving at such a speed, the only way I can see visual detection working on missiles would be tracking based on the missiles "tail" but that is not always accurate to the position of the actual warhead.
[doublepost=1480004871,1480002738][/doublepost]

As sarge would say: "settle down Francis". Hyperbole aside, this is a very reasonable thing to properly distinguish 'Homing' missiles.

First off, no, this would not negate stealth tactics. Think about it; the alarm is only going to go off after you have achieved a' lock-on' not just because you are tracking your target waiting for the lock. So your first salvo is going to be in transit before your 'surprise' is ruined.

Second of all, if you are cloaked & jammed you can get right up on someone to deliver your missiles or torpedoes as...wait for it...rockets (dumb-fire). Also heat-seekers do not actively ping targets so that is an option too. Each of these variations on missiles (homing, heat-seeking, rockets & torpedoes) have distinctive advantages and disadvantages and are not meant as a one-size-fits-all solution for your combat needs. It just so happens that homing missiles have been getting a free ride so far. There are also countless other weapon options for effective stealth tactics so don't host a funeral for stealth combat just yet.

The only thing that might get nerfed is someones ability to one-shot an alpha-strike weapon at long range, without warning. That is not something worth preserving. Submariners are a crafty lot because stealth is never going to be cake-walk.

[I would approve of the no-alarm policy if target-painting was introduced and used.]
[doublepost=1480000370,1479999829][/doublepost]

I'm OK with being able to turn off warnings as a server choice, but still the alarm should be a default for homing missiles lock-on.

To address your statements:

Missiles are slow in comparison to other things in StarMade that have any capability of velocity, that warning gives a pilot enough time to use a jump drive and get a sweet ride a long way away from a missile.

The only way to counter this would be to be in the same sector as your target using a jump inhibitor, as you know active jump inhibitors will alert affected pilots they are being inhibited so either way you completely kill you element of surprise before you are even able to start thinking about damage to a target and being within knife fighting range of a target ruins the point of even using missiles, you are better off using a cannon or a beam in these scenarios, they are much more effective in these scenarios, using a cannon or beam in a stealth attack is makes no fucking sense whatsoever, I have never heard of a main battle tank sneaking up on another main battle tank to use its .50 cal machinegun on it, it should be common sense that using the longer ranged cannon on the tank is much more effective than sneaking up to use a .50 cal machinegun.

Also worth mentioning that in order to have any effective weapon on a stealth ship you can only jam, cloaking is not possible if you want your stealth ship to have any capability of doing damage.

Now one common theme I am seeing in this missile nerf thread is that missiles are a sniper type weapon and that is bad, missiles being a sniper weapon is NOT A BAD THING.

A typical sniper in a real life scenario is going to sit at a vantage point a long distance away picking off targets at long range with a high damage low rate of fire weapon with a long reload time, the same can be said about missiles in StarMade which have similar characteristics to a standard marksman or sniper rifle.

A sniper is not invincible! once a sniper is spotted they are very easy to take out, the easiest way to take out a sniper is to take the advantage of their range away from them, the most common way to do this is to flank a sniper from a direction they are not watching and engage in CQC against said sniper, a sniper cannot win in a CQC scenario, the same is true for stealth missile snipers in StarMade, you can quite literally use a jump drive to jump into the sector of a sniper and use an inhibitor and kill them, you do not even need to flank them!


Alerting people that a missile is incoming completely kills long ranged combat, especially stealth combat, long ranges nothing is stopping a target from jumping away and never being seen again as soon as they hear a "BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP" and the methods to counter this require you to enter knife fighting range, if you have to enter knife fighting range to stop an enemy from jumping away at the first sign on danger then you can forget having the element of surprise!

 

[Valiant70]

They have TERRIBLE sustained DPS, they have good alpha damage but they cannot sustain a constant damage stream unlike other weapons.

I invented a missile system with great sustained DPS. I ain't telling you how it works though!
[doublepost=1480007105,1480007069][/doublepost]

Thermal Imaging will not work in space!

False. It works great because there's a cold background for objects to show up on.
[doublepost=1480007358][/doublepost]

Now one common theme I am seeing in this missile nerf thread is that missiles are a sniper type weapon and that is bad, missiles being a sniper weapon is NOT A BAD THING.

You can still use them as a sniper weapon. Fire as a soon as you lock on, then cloak and GTFO. Unless the missile is shot down (which it could be anyway WITHOUT any warning to the pilot by AMS) you'll still hit your target. You just don't have as long to get away. Having no idea there's a missile+pulse+explosive from a radar-jammed battleship is NOT a challenge, it's stupid. It gives you no chance to use skill to avoid instant destruction.
[doublepost=1480007467][/doublepost]

Actually it would make MORE sense for missiles to be undetectable at longer ranges, ever heard of the Kh-101, Kh-102 or the CVS401 Perseus?

I just mentioned 3 stealth cruise missiles, low radar cross section and by the time you detect it the missile has already reached its target and detonated, the Kh-102 carries a nuclear warhead and the others carry more conventional warheads.

Keep in mind that these are cruise missiles, so they are bigger than missiles in StarMade and fly faster, StarMade missiles would be even less detectable because they would have a smaller radar cross section and are much slower, a StarMade missile tripping off any radar system is practically impossible.

These are undetectable because they don't shoot a bunch of radiation at their targets in order to track them. They're cruise missiles!!!

 

[Jasper1991]

I invented a missile system with great sustained DPS. I ain't telling you how it works though!
[doublepost=1480007105,1480007069][/doublepost]
False. It works great because there's a cold background for objects to show up on.
[doublepost=1480007358][/doublepost]
You can still use them as a sniper weapon. Fire as a soon as you lock on, then cloak and GTFO. Unless the missile is shot down (which it could be anyway WITHOUT any warning to the pilot by AMS) you'll still hit your target. You just don't have as long to get away. Having no idea there's a missile+pulse+explosive from a radar-jammed battleship is NOT a challenge, it's stupid. It gives you no chance to use skill to avoid instant destruction.
[doublepost=1480007467][/doublepost]
These are undetectable because they don't shoot a bunch of radiation at their targets in order to track them. They're cruise missiles!!!

There is cold background, that cold background also cools other objects, missiles would be cooled outside of thermal detection ranges in seconds.

If you give an early warning system to missiles, then people will warp out as soon as they get a warning, before jump inhibitors people would warp out at the first sign of any danger and it completely killed PvP, this suggestion seeks to bring that terrible mechanic of warping out at the first sign of danger back, the only difference is that rather than warping out as soon as you see a radar blip, you warp out as soon as you hear a *BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP*

Any long ranged attack becomes impossible, the minute you fire a missile the enemy will warp out because there is no way to stop them, jump inhibitors are not long ranged.

Missiles are a sniper weapon that shines in Alpha Damage and Range and sucks in every other aspect, adding the ability for tiny turrets to mitigate missile damage is more than enough, missiles do not need another nerf, this suggestion seeks to take away one of the only two advantages missiles have left over other weapons.

And also worth mentioning that missiles are not invisible! You can still see a missile if it is coming towards you, so you already have an early warning system!
[doublepost=1480012142][/doublepost]Hey guess what I just also found out that you can already have an early warning system on your ship using an turret based enemy detector!


With this in mind I would lob this suggestion under the Implemented tag

 

[Nauvran]

There is cold background, that cold background also cools other objects, missiles would be cooled outside of thermal detection ranges in seconds.

If you give an early warning system to missiles, then people will warp out as soon as they get a warning, before jump inhibitors people would warp out at the first sign of any danger and it completely killed PvP, this suggestion seeks to bring that terrible mechanic of warping out at the first sign of danger back, the only difference is that rather than warping out as soon as you see a radar blip, you warp out as soon as you hear a *BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP*

Any long ranged attack becomes impossible, the minute you fire a missile the enemy will warp out because there is no way to stop them, jump inhibitors are not long ranged.

Missiles are a sniper weapon that shines in Alpha Damage and Range and sucks in every other aspect, adding the ability for tiny turrets to mitigate missile damage is more than enough, missiles do not need another nerf, this suggestion seeks to take away one of the only two advantages missiles have left over other weapons.

And also worth mentioning that missiles are not invisible! You can still see a missile if it is coming towards you, so you already have an early warning system!
[doublepost=1480012142][/doublepost]Hey guess what I just also found out that you can already have an early warning system on your ship using an turret based enemy detector!


With this in mind I would lob this suggestion under the Implemented tag

so adding the beep thing is just fine?
Anyway I dont see the point of why it should or shouldnt be there, it doesnt give anyone any advantages or disadvantages since PD turrets already sees missiles as soon as they are launched. it really wouldnt change all that much for the attacker other than your target starts moving earlier.
we could also go as far as adding stealth missiles in some way, maybe they cost more power to use and has less health but are not visible to ai nor this warning system?
There's a lot of ways to discuss this warning system other than immediately going to the NOPE part.