Missile Failure.

[GRHayes]

I was adding turrets to a mining ship to give it a bit of protection. I noticed an issue when I tried to make missile turrets similar to the cannon turrets. You can see the images below.
I noticed the missile where exploding before leaving the ship.
I starter off with the missile turret being as close to the design of the cannon system.
As you can see I tried extending the missiles out beyond the edge of the bunker for turret.
That didn't work. So I got in the turret and did a little testing and well I feel stupid.
It turns out if the HUD center dot hits hull it targets your own ship.
Kind of funny how the cannon system can see through the hull but the missile system can't.
O'well I just make a different system for missiles.

The third image is of a pirate spamming swarms. However if you noticed in the image the swarms are also targeting other pirates as well. Swarms are only good for battles in which there is only one ship on the side using the swarms. Got to wish that some sort of IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) system was put in place.
Come on this is space we should be able to do something that was developed in 1935 and used in WWII.
Hope they do something about it before the new ships get added. Then again saves me the work of shooting them down myself or at the very least makes it easier.

 

[Kyoretsu]

As I understand it, the faction system is how you get the auto targeting missiles to ignore friendly targets.

 

[Madman198237]

Missile-missile combos are SUPPOSED to work like that, indiscriminately killing everything and everyone.

 

[Livaria]

That's stupid. I have difficulty even imagining why multiple people think that heat seeking missiles that destroy allies is acceptable. The military wouldn't even use that technology if that were the case.

It's an objectively flawed weapon in Starmade and somehow there are people willing to defend it.

 

[Madman198237]

Wow, little bit over-the-top there?

There's a reason it's got such a serious disadvantage---at 100% effect, one missile-missile launcher will fire ten missiles! TEN! AMS goes nuts facing that many missiles. Swarmers are the weapon-of-choice for titans that can't turn and need no backup, because there's so many of them and they don't need to be locked on.

 

[Livaria]

I've been told the same story and because of that, I'm concerned for the players of Starmade.

Under no circumstances should a weapons disadvantage should involve killing allies. The weapon needs to be changed, *especially* if the developers involved wants crew to be meaningful in some future update. I've tested this weapon with crew. It *will* always kill crew before it will kill ships. Heat-seeking missiles aren't even true to their function.

You want a weakness to the weapon? Look for another idea, this one is terrible.

 

[Madman198237]

Calm down a bit. Right now, crew mechanics haven't been put in yet. No shipboard weapons should target players (At least not locking missiles and the like). Yes, M-M targeting friendlies is OP. That said, I'm not certain on that. I know for a fact that M-M swarms will go for neutrals, and they might very well go for players and ships in your faction. But I'm not sure on the faction things.

 

[Mork2]

Heatseekers will home in on you the player if your wandering around inside your own ship and use logic to fire the heatseekers.

 

[GRHayes]

Right now faction doesn't make a bit of difference. My own swarms hit my other ships which are all faction even targeted my faction station.
The fact is no one in their right mind would use these weapons in any sense of reality.
That said this is game not reality. Yet, some things do need to make some sort of sense and a missile that targets allies isn't worth two shits in a game that is supposed to be multiplayer and allow cooperation and fleets.

This means no ship could fire these in a fleet without risking damaging ones own ships. That is just stupid. That said the game isn't the same now as when this was first created. I have no idea of what the developers intent on change is in the future. It will be interesting to see.

 

[Lukwan]

Faithless humanity is probably the genus of most of our laws today.

Missile-missile combos are SUPPOSED to work like that, indiscriminately killing everything and everyone.

If I may further clarify; yes, the devs did intend for it work this way and if you just stop and think about it this will make sense.

That's stupid. I have difficulty even imagining why multiple people think that heat seeking missiles that destroy allies is acceptable. The military wouldn't even use that technology if that were the case.

Yes well, Starmade is a game, not a military weapons test-simulator. The rules governing how weapons work has everything to do with maintaining game balance ( and keeping it playable) and nothing to do with what would make sense IRL. The fact that Heat-seekers will hit allies is one of the restraints that keep them from being abused. Our computers have to track each missile fired which can cause tremendous lag and loss of frame-rate. If HS missiles were not limited somehow you can bet they would get spammed everywhere.

Not only that just look at the name: HEAT-SEEKER...a 'dumb' missile that is cheap and plentiful with a basic target following technology. It seeks heat...it does not require a 'lock' or facing...it has no on-board computer or link to the ship that launched. There are smart missiles (M/B) these do require target-lock, they are fire-and-forget so they have a significantly better on-board tracking software. In either case the human pilot is the friend/foe discriminator, choosing targets based on a HUD color code that tells them who is who but lets the captain decide who is targeted. That allows for mistakes to be made, betrayals and other fun drama, just like you want in a game.

 

[Groovrider]

M/M combos that don't target friendlies won't work because that would make them functionally the same as multi array lock-ons but without the need to aim. I think we can all see that would be bad for the game. They do have a purpose, both in 1 on 1 combat and pve (vanilla or other wise). If player wants to fire a large group of missiles without aiming that don't target allies... Use turrets.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

missile/missile had to have this weakness for the sake of balance; for it is the only weapon in game that autotargets without requiring any player interaction from the player other than pressing the button every 15 seconds (and not even that if it's hooked to logic, in which case it's the flip of a switch to autofire them every 15 seconds and not give a good goddamn at all)
Nothing else in the game does that. So if it didn't have that massive risk of friendly fire, it would certainly be the most imbalanced weapon setup in Starmade.

 

[Comradecolonel]

I'm sure that there is a way to balance swarmers without them being useless. I think it is pretty silly for a guided weapon to not be able to distinguish between friend and foe. I never use swarmers because the are literally the perfect way to shoot yourself in the foot. Might as well just put warheads all through my ship while is head into battle.

No other game has a weapon like this because it is straight up a bad idea. In fleet action there is no way to stop it from hitting you're own. It's not just that there is a danger of friendly fire, it is GUARANTEED to happen in almost all types of fleet action.

I think it is a terrible balancing mechanic but if you think otherwise let me know why.

 

[Groovrider]

It might not be a good balance but it is balance. Can you come up with a better idea that won't result in a guided missile "laser"?

 

[Matt_Bradock]

again: swarm missiles DO NOT target the ship that launched them, or its docked entities.
Then again, you do NOT put swarm missiles on turrets. If you want missile turrets, link a single beam computer to the missile comp, with no damage beam modules, and you get the same 15 second cooldown missiles, fewer, but faster, and tracking only hostiles (turrets get instalock with lock-on missiles like missile/beam or missile/pulse)
So, you put swarm missiles on your MAIN SHIP (seriously, swarm turrets are the worst possible idea you could ever cook up) and link them to a logic clock and inner ship remote to toggle autofire, and you'll be perfectly safe as long as you don't leave the core with the autofire on. Your drones and friends, as well as innocent bystanders, on the other hand, are just as endangered by that setup as your enemies.

No missile being used in present day combat, has an IFF transponder, regardless of guidance. It's up to the weapon's operator to determine whether the target is hostile or not, it's up to a ship's designer which weapon setups to choose for a ship (and thus choose which scenarios e.g. close/mid/long range combat or solo/fleet ops will it excel or be weaker at), and it's up to a ship's pilot to consciously choose which weapon from the ship's arsenal will he/she use in a specific combat situation. The game has 16 possible weapon combinations, and you whine about one not working exactly as you imagined... well, use another, if you hate friendly fire.

 

[Tydeth]

M/M was given the no-IFF because it automatically locks on and chases targets with no aiming required, as opposed to M/B and M/P, the other two guided missile options. No skills = No target selection. Every other weapon needs you to aim and/or maneuver your ship into range. In addition, it fires multiple missiles, which like beams can potentially strain users' PCs in large numbers.

That last bit will be important to consider...

Everyone's clients have a "Maximum Missiles Rendered" setting, to avoid having too many missiles overload your computer and cause low FPS and high lag, as the client and server must communicate about each rendered missile's position and travel vector, just like ships. While you can use other missile options to fire over this limit, it is not very practical from a power usage standpoint, but M/M makes this very practical to do.

Here's a problem: Once you have more missiles on the field than your render setting permits, the rest of the missiles fired after hitting the cap are invisible, until missiles in your rendered list hit something, get shot, or travel Beyond Visual Range. Unfortunately, a missile fired at you from BVR (hi, Pirate Station with the long-range missile) also is invisible after it gets within rendering distance. Based on how AMS is useless regarding BVR-fired missiles, it apparently uses the client's rendered missiles list to pick a target to protect the player's ship from. As such, you can fire M/M swarms to overload an enemy's client, then fire invisible M/P or M/B that the server still keeps track of and will kill the enemy with. Even if their hardware and Internet connection let them turn that setting way up so they can see the M/P and M/B, the AMS would still target all of the M/M missiles before ever considering the ones that are the actual threat.

Since M/M target friendlies as well as neutrals (hi, Trade Guild) and hostiles, doing this also means weakening yourself and allies via missiles to the face. Using 1 block per output helps mitigate the damage the swarms do to the friendlies, but it can still start turning people red. Not to mention if you fire enough missiles to overload your own render setting, your enemies' subsequent weapons are just as invisible to you as your own.

 

[Kingofanime]

It would be hilarious... If, when you fired heat-seekers when no one was around, they turned around and targeted yourself. :p

 

[Winterhome]

All you people are arguing about how swarmers shouldn't target friendly vessels because 'Starmade is a multiplayer game with fleets'.

I argue that the only people who seriously use swarm missiles as an offensive weapon are the sorts of solo players who don't bother making multiple ships, but rather, just continually build larger and larger underdecorated bricks. If you can successfully fire without aiming, it goes without saying that you shouldn't be able to choose what you hit. At all.

The only way to make swarm missiles less overpowered when you take away friendly-fire risks is to make them do less than 1/10th the DPS of literally any other weapon system - and make it a flat rate, because otherwise you could just use a single missile computer and no modules to fire 0% swarmers with the heat seeking effect.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

All you people are arguing about how swarmers shouldn't target friendly vessels because 'Starmade is a multiplayer game with fleets'.

I argue that the only people who seriously use swarm missiles as an offensive weapon are the sorts of solo players who don't bother making multiple ships, but rather, just continually build larger and larger underdecorated bricks. If you can successfully fire without aiming, it goes without saying that you shouldn't be able to choose what you hit. At all.

Exactly that. If you don't aim, you don't get to choose what you hit. Period.

 

[jayman38]

If missiles were able to destroy missiles, and maybe some other things came into play, like accidental detonations and per-ship and per-fleet limits on the number of simultaneous missiles, then we might get IFF-enabled heat-seeking swarmers. Until we get that level of defense against this powerful weapon, which almost guarantees the total annihilation of the entire swarm if you so much as sneeze toward it, they have to be severely nerfed by auto-targeting any heat sources (including friendlies.)

Still, it would be nice if the swarmers actually acted like heat seekers and went after the largest/hottest target in their forward arc. Then at least there would be some strategy to their use. (E.g. heavily used in drone/fighter groups, or waiting until a nice, big, juicy enemy capital ship is in front of the launchers)