Minimum weapon damage

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    But they do do enough damage to sometimes deter and piss off capital ship pilots.

    If you make it so that fighters are even remotely close to being able to kill a ship five hundred times their size, you're doing it wrong. As it stands, ships naturally can have an advantage against ships that are twice their mass due to maneuverability issues and power management. Taking that any further would be outright disastrous.

    The only cases in which a ship is unable to take on a ship twice its mass and win are when swarm missiles are involved, or when the ships in question are extraordinarily small (ie: a 500 block ship can't hold a candle to a 1000 block ship, which can't hold a candle to a 1500 block ship - though this effect rapidly diminishes as you approach the point of 5000 blocks and up)
    Agreed, I don't want a fighter soloing a capital in Starmade unless there are some really extenuating circumstances, like having a potato for the capital ship's captain.

    I was just pointing out that generally, it's a bad argument to state that space fighters are always as ineffective as a rifle-toting dinghy master. There are plenty of sci-fi settings and situations in which small fighters can pack some pretty significant weaponry that threaten capital ships. Starmade fits in with sci-fi settings where fighters are out-gunned when facing larger ships. I like that, I think it makes for good game balance.
     

    Winterhome

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    Agreed, I don't want a fighter soloing a capital in Starmade unless there are some really extenuating circumstances, like having a potato for the capital ship's captain.

    I was just pointing out that generally, it's a bad argument to state that space fighters are always as ineffective as a rifle-toting dinghy master. There are plenty of sci-fi settings and situations in which small fighters can pack some pretty significant weaponry that threaten capital ships. Starmade fits in with sci-fi settings where fighters are out-gunned when facing larger ships. I like that, I think it makes for good game balance.
    Fighters in Starmade are capable of causing extensive damage to a capital ship that has had its shields removed, if the fighter in question is designed specifically to cripple large ships. Specifically, things like Cannon-Pulse-Explosive come to mind, so that they can penetrate deeply into the ship and hit a weapons computer or something. Even in sci-fi series where fighters are able to cause critical system damage to capital ships, though, the fighter pilot needs to know exactly where to shoot and at which angles.

    The problem is that fighters cannot actually *destroy* capital ships in Starmade. You cannot kill a capital ship outright. You can simply make it impossible to fire its weapons and jump, at which point you board the ship and kill the pilot the hard way, though this may be undesirable for a multitude of reasons.
     

    Lecic

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    Your description is correct for Starmade as it stands. I see no reason, however, why a fighter in space couldn't be the equivalent of a guy with a nuclear weapon riding a dinghy. Not saying fighters should be that powerful, but there's not a good setting/real-life explanation for why they shouldn't.
    Because, from a gameplay perspective, it's fucking bullshit to get killed by something with massively lower resource cost than you.
     
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    Because, from a gameplay perspective, it's fucking bullshit to get killed by something with massively lower resource cost than you.
    I agree with your sentiment, but note in my quoted post:
    ...but there's not a good setting/real-life explanation for why they shouldn't.
    There's definitely plenty of gameplay reasons.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    In real life, fighters and other attack craft have a huge and substantial cost to building and maintaining them.

    But not in starmade, they are cheap and it is literally the first thing you build, other than a miner.
    If their was a way for it to have a substantial cost to make it deadly, then i would be all for it.

    But currently in real life, starmade fighters are like one of those single engine 2 seater planes that doctors and other rich people buy, and strapping some paintball and air-soft to it.
     
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    What i really mean guys is that im fricken tired of having the weapons on a fighter being weaker than my hand laser!
     

    Lecic

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    What i really mean guys is that im fricken tired of having the weapons on a fighter being weaker than my hand laser!
    Hand laser has something like... 50 DPS? 100 DPS? If your weapons are less than 5 or 10 blocks, they aren't doing much anyway.
     
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    Yes but you see. I like to keep my fighters within 10x10x10 blocks it just seems realistic for them to be that size, Yet they could do more damage if i just stopped trying to make them fire and shot out the window.
     

    Winterhome

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    Yes but you see. I like to keep my fighters within 10x10x10 blocks it just seems realistic for them to be that size, Yet they could do more damage if i just stopped trying to make them fire and shot out the window.

    Type: F-18C
    Country: USA
    Function: fighter / attack
    Crew: 1

    Length: 17.10 m
    Height: 4.70 m
    Wing Span: 12.30 m
     
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    Yes but you see. I like to keep my fighters within 10x10x10 blocks it just seems realistic for them to be that size, Yet they could do more damage if i just stopped trying to make them fire and shot out the window.
    RL fighters are bigger than that
     
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    RL fighters are bigger than that
    Not old fashioned ones. Idk why the us spends millions on those things when they could make something simpler for much less and have more.

    BTW if you want to know how to put AMS turrets on a fighter, Just make your friends sit on the wings holding their guns, Works pretty well.
     

    Lecic

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    BTW if you want to know how to put AMS turrets on a fighter, Just make your friends sit on the wings holding their guns, Works pretty well.
    Laser pistol rounds are extremely slow.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    They work pretty well against missiles.
    What kind of missiles are you using?

    Also, old fashion planes vs old fashion ships didn't go well for the planes a lot of the time.
    Only the times that it did go well are remembered, because it was such a victorious and rare occasion.
     
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    What kind of missiles are you using?

    Also, old fashion planes vs old fashion ships didn't go well for the planes a lot of the time.
    Only the times that it did go well are remembered, because it was such a victorious and rare occasion.
    Normal average missiles. And i guess i accept your logic, But i do think there should be some way of keeping the absolute minimum damage higher than the DPS of my laser gun.
     

    Keptick

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    I have yet to see such a scenario, but if I try to imagine a fight between a capital ship and a swarm of fighters of a combined mass equal to the capital ship, I'm very certain the fighters have a very realistic chance of winning this battle. I'm against buffing weapons for smaller ships.
    The fighters would obliterate the capital ship. I know, cause I tried :p. Not to mention that the fighter swarm was like 1/6th the mass of the capital ship.

    Now ofc it doesn't work as well against ships with dedicated anti-fighter/drone weaponry, but those get obliterated by ship killers of equal mass. So in the end it's pretty balanced. What we really need is proper AI fleet control.
     
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    One of the main issues for fighters and bombers (and their interaction with larger ships) in Starmade is how weaponry works. Ships have no armor at all, to speak of, and all weapon power is generated locally.

    In real life, armor tends to be all or nothing solution on vehicles as a non-penetrating hit doesn't generally cause any significant damage while penetrating hits tend towards debilitating. Sure, there's occasional tank that gets penetrated dozen times and still functions, but it's very rare I think. I don't know how many penetrating hits it takes to disable a tank or a warship, but most interior systems can't take a hit and function so current build method of massed system blocks would probably be highly vulnerable if we went this route. Similarly, fighters would be pretty much useless against armored targets like in real life no matter how many you deploy. Starmade style "all damage deals real damage" is both a boon and a curse, as nobody likes invulnerable ships but also it really makes it impossible to make a strongly defended ship against massed drones as absolutely no weapon, no matter how puny in comparison, can be ignored. That's like taking down a tank with assault rifles, and in Starmade it's a valid strategy.

    As for weapons, usually there are no warmachines that generate their own damage. In nuclear powered ships, laser and railgun technology is being tested but that's pretty much an edge case. A fighter could never carry such weapons with any degree of usability. However, warheads and ammunition are easy. Sure, you get only few shots of significant sized warheads, maybe 4 missiles on a heavy attack fighter or 10-20 bombs in a big bomber but they are all very, very effective. Deploy in the dozens or hundreds and you got significant damage potential. Downside is the fairly costly maintenance work to keep them flying and the need for landing strip near the target due to relatively short operating range. Similarly all a ship has to manage is the recoil of its cannons. The power of the gun is not tied to the vehicle that carries it... but let's be honest, I don't see Starmade switching to munitions based weaponry and maintenance and space requirements that would be required to balance weapons around that.

    So, my opinion is no, we don't need minimum damage. Trying to build realistic sized craft based on what goes in WW II in Starmade is silly, although cool in its own way, but you'll get better results if you go the Warthog route and make a gun that does what you want and then figure out how to make it fly.
     
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    What we really need is proper AI fleet control.
    Once we have proper fleet control UNESCORTED capital ships will be sitting ducks. Capital ships will require proper fleet support and large Close Air Support fighter coverage. Imagine a day in STARMADE where you can issue an order to a squadron of AI fighters to fly to a certain sector and attack any enemy on the way. Battles could be decided without the capital ships even meeting each other. The CARRIER will reign supreme! It may be bad for Battleship builders, but it will sure be cool to watch the massive dogfights.
     
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    Not likely to be the end of capital ships.

    If you can remotely send drones swarms somewhere to attack you could send a bunch to keep attacking a non-homebase station with no threat to yourself. Have a few people doing this and you have a lag on a server since more sectors would have to be calculated not just the ones with active players in them. If the base is the planet imagine the amount of lag from having the drones collide with the planet. You could also then have a swarm of them around or in the player start areas grieving all the new players. Also everyone runs around cloaked looking for people then orders the drones in. Risk of losing ship almost none. Skill required not much. I really don't think they want to add that as a feature to starmade, though the griefers will have fun with it.

    Of course if someone was sending them to attack your homebase you get to farm them for free. Get a salvage/beam turret and salvage away.

    Even if implemented, you can see people coming up with a bunch of push decoy ships with AMS turrets to decoy some of the drones away from the capital. AI drone swarms however are unlikely to kill player driven capitals. They are unlikely to have enough jump inhibitors to stop it from jumping away.

    On the other hand if you can order a bunch of AI fighters to fly with you like an escort command. This would make for an interesting dogfight you could be in. Also the server would still only have to calculate the areas with active players. Of course you could then order fighters to escort your capital ship as well. That would work like carrier combat as if two people flying around in carriers/capitals saw each other they could both launch fighters and order an attack.

    To compliment this you would want some kind of auto-salvage your drones command. This would allow you to salvage your drones in the nearby sectors. Get back to the shipyard an repair your ship to load all the drones back on board.

    This thread is getting pretty far from the original topic.

    They are unlikely to have a minimum damage for a weapon. Since this would give you a better damage per weight ratio to use large volumes of single block guns. In the versions weapons system for starmade they scaled down the damage for larger weapons resulting in massive numbers of single block guns to produce the most possible damage per block. This resulted in some ships having hundreds or thousands of small single block guns in a multi layer checkerboard arrangement. To change this they made it possible for guns to damage more than one block and scaled the damage linearly to the number of blocks in the weapon. They also introduced a group power penalty for large numbers of grouped weapons. Do some youtube searches and you can find the "hailstorm" ship used for combat testing.

    If minimum weapon damage was implemented, if it was high enough you would start to see some massive arrays of logic driven small guns starting to show up. Well atleast until the server config was modified to stop them.

    Having said all this if there was a way to limit this to avoid abuse it might work.