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the ais are programed to act like experienced players
i do the same thing they do when aiming... and alot of my shots hit home
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- Thread starter Khantron
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i do the same thing they do when aiming... and alot of my shots hit home
Lecic
Convicted Lancake Abuser
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AI is programmed to aim ahead of the target because that's what a player does too if they want to hit their target. If AI didn't aim ahead, it would never land shots with cannons or dumbfire missiles, only lock-ons and hitscans like beams.
All things should take a learning curve, I don't like this idea and think anyone who wants it just needs to spend more time shooting and get over it.
Did you not see my post about 500 Hours in StarCon? Bro. My aim can still use a lot of work.
If you think that all things should take on a learning curve, try to shoot a guy who's flopping over the keyboard from at least 3000 meters away (maybe more than 30*the tiny ship distance). Stuff moves quickly, okay? If no lead indicator, then at least a little line or something off to the side to show how many degrees off the aim should be based on the distance that the target is away, and the velocity of the projectile. And the only weapon that would have this sort of thing would be cannons since the other ones don't really have a projectile speed or don't need to be aimed.
You might as well get rid of any sights or aiming mechanism entirely if you think that this is a bad idea.
If you think that all things should take on a learning curve, try to shoot a guy who's flopping over the keyboard from at least 3000 meters away (maybe more than 30*the tiny ship distance). Stuff moves quickly, okay? If no lead indicator, then at least a little line or something off to the side to show how many degrees off the aim should be based on the distance that the target is away, and the velocity of the projectile. And the only weapon that would have this sort of thing would be cannons since the other ones don't really have a projectile speed or don't need to be aimed.
You might as well get rid of any sights or aiming mechanism entirely if you think that this is a bad idea.
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There are too many different kinds of ships to justify this, the ability to lock on and get a "point, shoot, and kill" area would be too overpowering to larger ships. Smaller ships already have it hard as the scaling in this game is much like a classic RPG where numbers (or in this case ship scale) rules nearly all, and there isn't much game play to support the little guys as a viable option as is.
As for your point about the AI getting a lead to their shots, AI in games will always be inferior to the human mind, they can't predict and see things like we can, so it makes sense to give them a way to hit targets because otherwise they would miss nearly every shoot they took. Turrets would be useless and turrets are a huge asset to any ship bigger than a fighter scale. Even fighters benefit from turrets ocasionaly.
If you really just can't handle learning how to aim, speed up the cannon shots with the support system or use the hit scan beam. Or just use turrets like I do because I lag to much (both visual and server side) to compensate for movement.
As for your point about the AI getting a lead to their shots, AI in games will always be inferior to the human mind, they can't predict and see things like we can, so it makes sense to give them a way to hit targets because otherwise they would miss nearly every shoot they took. Turrets would be useless and turrets are a huge asset to any ship bigger than a fighter scale. Even fighters benefit from turrets ocasionaly.
That pilot is risking their life when in a real battle and friendly soldiers can either live or die due to one hit or miss. There is no comparison here. Games are made for fun and to be a challenge to learn how to play, heck, the learning curve is half the fun. The military is here to protect and serve, not to have a learning curve for pilots and potentially get innocents or friendlies killed due to incompetence or a miss. Lets keep the line between service and starmade clear, shall we?
If you really just can't handle learning how to aim, speed up the cannon shots with the support system or use the hit scan beam. Or just use turrets like I do because I lag to much (both visual and server side) to compensate for movement.
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In reply to BlackTangents most recent post.
I don't really want to start an argument because that would waste time BlackTangent and I both could use to help in the progression of Starmade. I'll just leave with a few final thoughts.
1. I'm not entirely certain that the people behind Starmade have the time or budget to make "professional AI", what they have now works, maybe later more robust AI will be needed such as for a single player AI faction. But right now AI's being able to hit a target works and works well, and if the AI hitting targets becomes a problem, then they can add to the AI until it is at a professional quality. Until then, the game needs work in more serious places. (There is also a difference between computing and understanding on a deeper level, which is why I said the AI will never be as powerful as the human mind. To clear up that statement.)
2. Media can be manipulated in any shape or form, thus the not too serious music in the background. Whoever made it intended it to be light and not too serious. The video you more recently linked is why I think making any connections between real life combat and video game mechanics will never result in a viable argument unless historical accuracy is intended in the game.
3. The game has implemented ways around the curve such as the hit scan beam and the weapon velocity subsystem. There is no need to suffer if you really despise the system in place for fighting with the cannon. If you really can't live without the cannons, then a little effort might be involved just like building a great ship to fly in.
As a final point before my departure, as much as it would help new players into the game, the fact is it's unnecessary to the game itself. Star Conflict, which I had played and enjoyed, needed a target lead to allow newer players to rival veterans so the game was balanced in the sense that no one had an advantage in that field, considering aim played a huge part in the games mechanics. In Starmade, the game does not revolve around conflict alone, people construct ships from scratch and then duke it out in space. Creativity plays as much of a factor as good aim, considering that a lot of bigger ships are designed in a way that they don't need to aim. Well, that's my 2 cents worth, I hope that this forum will come to a logical conclusion whatever that may be.
I don't really want to start an argument because that would waste time BlackTangent and I both could use to help in the progression of Starmade. I'll just leave with a few final thoughts.
1. I'm not entirely certain that the people behind Starmade have the time or budget to make "professional AI", what they have now works, maybe later more robust AI will be needed such as for a single player AI faction. But right now AI's being able to hit a target works and works well, and if the AI hitting targets becomes a problem, then they can add to the AI until it is at a professional quality. Until then, the game needs work in more serious places. (There is also a difference between computing and understanding on a deeper level, which is why I said the AI will never be as powerful as the human mind. To clear up that statement.)
2. Media can be manipulated in any shape or form, thus the not too serious music in the background. Whoever made it intended it to be light and not too serious. The video you more recently linked is why I think making any connections between real life combat and video game mechanics will never result in a viable argument unless historical accuracy is intended in the game.
3. The game has implemented ways around the curve such as the hit scan beam and the weapon velocity subsystem. There is no need to suffer if you really despise the system in place for fighting with the cannon. If you really can't live without the cannons, then a little effort might be involved just like building a great ship to fly in.
As a final point before my departure, as much as it would help new players into the game, the fact is it's unnecessary to the game itself. Star Conflict, which I had played and enjoyed, needed a target lead to allow newer players to rival veterans so the game was balanced in the sense that no one had an advantage in that field, considering aim played a huge part in the games mechanics. In Starmade, the game does not revolve around conflict alone, people construct ships from scratch and then duke it out in space. Creativity plays as much of a factor as good aim, considering that a lot of bigger ships are designed in a way that they don't need to aim. Well, that's my 2 cents worth, I hope that this forum will come to a logical conclusion whatever that may be.
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I've forgotten the vanilla scale of the game, but the server I play on has something like 10km range on basic cannon/cannon and suitably large sectors. While you can argue that custom settings are not relevant, I think it's what this game is slowly heading towards. Having ships that can fire a shot from their rear and not reach the front is really silly...
Anyway, I can hit a smallish npc pirate at 4-5 km about 1 in 3 shots with a 5 barrel setup cannon, start hitting reliably around 2km and with precision under 1km. Now cannon-beam has a range of 30km or something like that? Pointless outside of a turret, except for the projectile speed... but you'd probably be still better off with spam.
Point being, lead indicator and/or zoom are integral to increasing default scale to where this kind of game ought to be played. Don't want to get hit by people sniping? Evade. Flying straight ahead under fire is kinda stupid anyway. That said, with aim assistance and thrust update somewhere in the future, projectiles might become slower since you don't have to guess as much and ships probably act a bit more sedated. This would likely be configurable like just about everything is...
Anyway, I can hit a smallish npc pirate at 4-5 km about 1 in 3 shots with a 5 barrel setup cannon, start hitting reliably around 2km and with precision under 1km. Now cannon-beam has a range of 30km or something like that? Pointless outside of a turret, except for the projectile speed... but you'd probably be still better off with spam.
Point being, lead indicator and/or zoom are integral to increasing default scale to where this kind of game ought to be played. Don't want to get hit by people sniping? Evade. Flying straight ahead under fire is kinda stupid anyway. That said, with aim assistance and thrust update somewhere in the future, projectiles might become slower since you don't have to guess as much and ships probably act a bit more sedated. This would likely be configurable like just about everything is...
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I would actually appreciate this functionality. There's not a lot of point to holding out on anyone with concern to skill. I too can place a good shot at range, but a system that provides information, even if inaccurate, is still nice to have available.
As lecic pointed out long, long ago, this sort of thing can be linked into the cloaking/detection mechanics and target locking. In fact, if we had mass-based detection where objects infinitely smaller than you become infinitely harder to detect, more so with a jamming device, suddenly a supermassive titan can't snipe that fighter from the cockpit without the experience necessary. Without active sensors on a titan, the target doesn't show up, your system can't determine its presence let alone velocity relative to you, and you have no aim assistance.
Its turrets will be able to regardless, and what sort of titan has neither turrets nor lock-on missiles of some sort? One that deserves to get whipped by a fighter. A fighter more or less has no chance either way. You should be using your speed to your advantage and running away, not fighting back.
Really liked the mass-based radar suggestion, too.
As lecic pointed out long, long ago, this sort of thing can be linked into the cloaking/detection mechanics and target locking. In fact, if we had mass-based detection where objects infinitely smaller than you become infinitely harder to detect, more so with a jamming device, suddenly a supermassive titan can't snipe that fighter from the cockpit without the experience necessary. Without active sensors on a titan, the target doesn't show up, your system can't determine its presence let alone velocity relative to you, and you have no aim assistance.
Its turrets will be able to regardless, and what sort of titan has neither turrets nor lock-on missiles of some sort? One that deserves to get whipped by a fighter. A fighter more or less has no chance either way. You should be using your speed to your advantage and running away, not fighting back.
Really liked the mass-based radar suggestion, too.