Large ship stats query

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    I'm jumping back into starmade after about a year of absence and I'm trying to build a ship larger than most things I have build this far, somewhere between 100 to 200 meters long**. Being on a server with pvp I would like this ship to be competitive.

    So my question is, what are the stats of your ships, or goals you try to hit between 100 and 200 meters long. I am particularly interested in:

    *Mass
    *Shield capacity
    *Shield recharge
    *Missiles (type and size)
    *Other weapons or support utilities
    *Any "expected features" on a ship this size
    *Number of turrets

    any other general advice or ballpark stats are welcomed.

    ** I realize length is not a good measure of a ships mass however I haven't the faintest clue as to how much it would weigh.
     

    Lecic

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    Stats depend ENTIRELY on what you want the ship to do. However, I can offer some advice.

    1) If you're fighting ships of a similar size and those ships use missiles, 4 layers of advanced armor will almost entirely nullify their missiles due to the explosion dampening powers of armor. It will also make you completely immune to beams (beams can't get through armor without certain tricks that don't work unless you're using a much larger ship, and then they're still worse than cannons.) and will severely weaken the effectiveness of many machineguns.
    Combine this armor with passive pierce and passive punch effects, which will greatly boost the effectiveness of this armor. These are absolutely necessary if you decide to use armor. This will make you heavy, but it will also make you very hard to kill.
    I generally recommend "slow, heavy, and hard to kill" over "fast and hard to hit" due to how quickly fast but flimsy ships fall apart when hit, and it's generally difficult to avoid fire anyway.

    2) Shield capacity and regen will vary depending on whether you want to be tankier or have more weapons. Generally, I fill in shields last unless the ship is a shield tank. Ion passive is absolutely necessary unless your ship uses armor and thrust as its primary defense and has very few shields.

    3) Missiles can make good support weapons, but should not be relied upon as your primary ship weapon since they can be shot down and can be countered easier by armor than cannons.
    Missile/Beam with pierce, punch, and explosive are all good choices. Explosive will work best against softly armored targets, and the other two will work best against heavier armor. Pierce on missiles does NOT have a debuff against shields like cannons and beams do. Missile/Beam works great on turrets since AI can lock onto and fire on jammed ships, can see and fire on enemies from up to 4 sectors away if you have 100% beam slave, and you won't need to stop firing your other guns for ~5s while the missiles lock on. Make sure to include decoy missiles (broadside launched missile/cannon works great for this) to distract enemy PD while your lock ons are enroute to the enemy.

    4) Other weapons are a must. Men cannot fight with missiles alone. Cannon, cannon/cannon, and cannon/beam (all with punch) are great block destruction options. Cannon/beam/explosive may also work decently. If you are going to use cannon/beam, I definitely recommend having multiple shots on separate computers each, so you don't need to wait 4 seconds between every shot. Cannon/cannon may have difficulty breaking through armor at small sizes. I would suggest shooting for 8k to 12k modules per output for a small ship. Adding more outputs will make you more effective against systems, but you may have more trouble with armor.
    You'll also want a shield breaker weapon. Shield drain beams give you back what you deal to the opponent, but they're only half as effective as a weapon with ion, and they are seriously lacking in the range department. Other good choices are cannon/cannon/ion, beam/cannon/ion, beam/beam/ion, and beam/pulse/ion. Rapidfire ion weapons are generally not something I recommend for smaller ships due to the large amount of size you need to dedicate to breaking people's shields with DPS. For smaller ships, I definitely recommend the alpha option, as it will allow you to zap enemy shields quickly at the start of the fight and start breaking their armor and systems up, and your can make your block destruction weapons larger since you're spending less block space on ion weapons. Do not use missiles against shields unless you plan on fighting the enemy at extreme ranges only. Due to the pseudo-raycast damage system used by missiles, they are generally ineffective as shield busters because their damage can vary greatly.

    5) Expected features of a ship that size is a chain drive (Jaaskinal's is the one I recommend due to its great control system), which will allow for easy, constant jumping in a very small package. You should probably have at least some sort of interior. Chances are decent that you may need a docked reactor for a ship of this size. It's right around the border of "rarely needed" to "essentially required." I've built ships around this size that have and have not needed them. It all depends on the power costs of your weapons, shields, thrust, and passives.

    6) For a ship this size, I would recommend 2 to 6 turrets with 500 to two thousand weapon modules each. You'll probably want to equip these with cannon/beam or missile/beam to get the most bang for your buck out of something this size. Make sure to put a second missile system on your missile/beam turrets (missile/cannon or missile/beam, generally) to fire off distraction missiles so the main missiles don't get shot down.
    POINT DEFENSE IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. I recommend at least 4-6 turrets on each side of a ship, with 2-3 covering the top half and 2-3 covering the bottom half. One on your rear and 2 to 4 on your front end is also highly recommended. Point defense will save your life against missiles, and is probably the only thing that will keep you alive if you're running from a ship that's much bigger than yours. My personal PD design is this.

    Each of the 4 side barrels are outputs for a cannon/missile shotgun system, which floods the area with cannon projectiles, and the center barrel is a cannon/cannon. Cannon/cannon supported by cannon/missile appears to be the best entity-efficient way of dealing with large numbers of missiles according to both tests and combat, and I highly recommend a design like mine. PM me if you want a copy of it.

    Best of luck with your ship, and remember, forums and chat will almost always have good advice if you need further help.​
     

    DrTarDIS

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    Ship that size there's no reason NOT to have atleast 2.4 million e/sec, preferably pushed closer to 2.8 for some redundancy.

    Mass is mainly a function of how heavy you make your armor. On a 200M ship I'd almost ignore advanced armor in favor of maneuverability, layer up some basic and standard with some scaffold to soak anything that gets past the shields and rely on Muhammad Ali fighting. Try and keep the thrust:mass around 2:1, and play with allocation to suit your own combat method. For me that would be high rotation and strafing potential, but everyone has their own groove.

    Shields are entirely dependent on the pirates of your server, weather NPC or PC. Generally speaking I'd allocate around 30% of my after-thrust e/sec towards combat regen, and just slap capacity in up to what I'd expect to take from an alpha strike.

    Missiles, and weapons in general are your own flavor, and quite frankly are limited solely by how much of a battery you want to pack into your ship; minimal battery = e/sec weapons like can/can or beam/can, large battery mis/beam or mis/pulse. If you have high resolution monitor and high FPS, go for aimed weaponry like cannon/beam or beam/beam, if your resolution is crap and you're working of HUD, go with swarmers and lockons.


    Any ship in the 200m range is going to be a lil-bit slow when it comes to turning, so your flanks will be your soft spots especially versus a macros-missile-massacre opponent. Make sure to cover every quadrant with at least 2, preferably 4, anti-missile turrets. Bonus points if they at least partially overlap other quadrant's firing arcs.
    Any ship in the 100m+ range is going to benefit from at least 2 50m-ish self-powered offensive turrets to cover those same flanks, and provide additional frontal damage. If the server's AI accuracy is crap give them lockons, if it's decent or scary give them a mix of cannon and beam.

    for other things:
    • there's zero reason not to have full piercing and punch passives running on ANY ship(quite frankly it's sad that they are "optional").
    • Ion shields are nice if you can get them going.
    • Explosive and stop passives are situational; do you plan on going near planets or black holes? Do players on your server use momentum weaponry such as the dreaded can/can/stop 5:4:1, or insidious can/beam/pull 4:3:1 ?
    • overderive passive is a waste on large ships, but you can try it
    • push passive on an interruptible logic clock is great for GTFO, or if you want to walk around but still force the ship's AI to act like it's more than artificial stupidity
    • Drones (and fleets)are your friend, except when they are your enemy(or you use swarmers)
    • Jump drives are nice, notice the s. Look into logic drives. There's quite a few threads on them.
    • Label EVERYTHING. Display modules everywhere. Leave notes, ESPECIALLY for logic, or you will HATE yourself in a month or two when looking at something going "WTF was I thinking? What the...How?...WHY? but where does-? ARRRGH"
    • lights are cool
    • engines are sexy
     
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    Note that damage beams are bugged, they do too little damage to armor after armor HPs are gone. Also, there's no use in adding more than 10% explosive effect for cannons and beams.

    Edit: Fixed error, ty Lecic.
     
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    All of the above post are very good information, also keep in mind what you are going for. Long range verse close range. Stealth/Jamming....ect. As you are getting back into this after a year or so, there have been a few changes such as fleets that might also alter what you are going for, as combined arms operations are starting to become a thing.
     

    Lecic

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    Also, there's no use in adding more than 10% explosive effect.
    On cannons and beams, that is. Explosive can go all the way up to 100% on missiles and pulses.
     
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    Check update before responding further to this thread.
    Lol this update just outdated much of the info on this thread: cannons and beams are no longer bugged (assuming update notes are correct and I didn't misread) with hitting and raycast.

    For large ships .... all the above advice is good. You NEED an ability to get out of the action IMMEDIATELY.
    This necessitates three JDs: one for maneuvering (possibly a fourth, the chaindrive for long distance travel), one for combat evac, one for bailing out of the star you landed in. Immediately after second escape jump, reset ALL of them. Power them ALL back up or you WILL regret it.
    Next up ... I'm a fan of Missile/Beam/Explosive. I love it. I've got an array that is small (about 60/40/20 blocks M/B/E), fires six rounds @ three/computer and can fire both off of any self-respecting warship's power grid at once. And I've got an identically-sized nuke turret (M/Pulse/E) that kicks harder, though it's absurdly slow on most server settings. This can ALSO fire off of a decent warship's (the same one, in fact) power grid, though it may need to stagger on smaller ships. Also the mounting is absurdly ugly on ships that aren't massive. As in ISD II massive. I'll fix that next ... hmmm.... But it's highly effective versus a ship with 1 mil shielding, crappy regen, and one-layer-thick hull for armor ... but it tears a hole with one salvo, and the nuke blows away fully half the 125m ship in one. It's a stocky sort of ship, too - LvD's Simeon-class Corvette. Ugly and ineffective at PvP, but it's a start. And it's big, which means Isanths are a joke and no longer in the server.

    Anyways, missiles are useful and powerful, but you need something else. My recommendation is either a large Beam/Beam array, or an autocannon. Or, if you're particularly inventive, some form of dumbfire warhead rocket that you can chuck en masse at larger ships from bombers ... and have those fly around you, piloted by the AI who only need to be good enough to get close and let something like, Idk, a pulse weapon do the rest: make a pulse weapon enemy detector to fire two or whatever rockets ... hmm.
    Autocannon are good. Turrets are better. Focus on compact turrets, using Overdrive to get more block destruction out of a small package, even though your main ship needs a bigger power grid. Make them tracking missiles or cannons/beams, pulse and dumbfire missiles are pretty much useless. Although I'd love to see a massive Missile/Cannon system that can pour out huge numbers of powerful missiles to make it more difficult for AMS ... lol.
    For armor ... try to figure out what areas need more armor than others, and armor accordingly.
    Shields are the best option for defense, IF you can keep them from going down. If they make up too much of your ship, and they still go down, that's wasted space for ten seconds. Ten entire seconds that you could be tanking on armor, or dealing out that much more punishment, or moving that much faster, rather than waiting for your only chance to reboot. But they're also good reusable armor.
     

    Lecic

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    Check update before responding further to this thread.
    Lol this update just outdated much of the info on this thread: cannons and beams are no longer bugged (assuming update notes are correct and I didn't misread) with hitting and raycast.
    I'm pretty sure that was just a bug fix for the lag caused by large weapon arrays and NOT a fix for beams being absolutely useless against armor (which may be intended, devs have given conflicting statements). I'm not sure what bug with cannons you might be referring to.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    cannons were too good and now with this update who knows might shift away from cannon meta anything is possible with
     
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    Sorry I wasn't clear. Cannons and Beams both have issues with actually hitting targets in their way (if I read bug reports/updates correctly, and correctly interpreted what has happened on my games), especially under laggy conditions; as I understood the update notes, they've fixed a problem relating to this, or part of this problem.
    Of course, I could be wrong.
     
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    Wow! Really impressed by the solid and thorough advice here, thanks for giving me a lot of pointers and references!
     

    Az14el

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    Loads of advisey stuff in there that's probably all you need to get started if you're into words and stuff
    I'll just try and compare with a similar size "competetive" wip and answer literally since the rest is covered :p

    ~100m long not including overhangy bits (assuming its relatively ship shaped, say 120x40x40 ultimate dimensions)
    ~6-7k projected mass including planned docked parts, basic flimsy hull, and bare minimum RP/Crew space.

    With this in mind, and knowing I want it to be able to hold its own in combat & punch far above its weight.

    -Power - 2-2.3m e/s on main ship, 1-2m e/s on primary anti-ship turrets
    -Power Cap - 2-3mil cap
    -Shield Cap - 5-6k blocks
    -Shield Recharge - 5-6k blocks
    -Missiles - Several output piercing lock ons, single/double fire Punch missile (100% beam support for these)
    -Other/Support - ~9-11k block onboard Cannon/Cannon/Ion(50-75%), ~300 block Cannon/Cannon/Stop (only one cannon module per output, with 100+ outputs)
    Just some ideas there, a penetrative Ion weapon is godlike at this size range, but save roughly 50% main ships power regen for jamming, high thrust & shield recharge.
    -Expected Features - Distractor Missiles (Missile-Cannon or Missile-Missile on logic), Antimissile turrets, full defensive Ion (60%)
    -Number of Turrets; 2 Anti-ship, 8-12 anti missile turrets

    Build to your strengths (for a ship this size that is power/damage efficiency, mobility & speed, not durability, you don't have that kinda volume to spend just yet)
    Stay away from fancy docked stuff at this weight/size, PSUs, SSUs, Docked Armor. Every block can be better spent on a turret or the main ship at this point. Also, Make absolute sure that you have WEAPONS & REACTORS both right up the top of your block list on that BP, they are hands down the highest value systems/blocks in general in the game by a pretty ridiculous margin, with reactors falling off at 200-300+m range where missiles & PSUs become more viable, but weapons never fall off in value so long as you can fire them. This is pretty much the #1 fuck up with frigate-destroyer range ships, and kinda one of the biggest fuck ups with combat ships in general. Way too much tank, and the guns of a ship 1/3rd or less its size (not even exaggerating), which won't win a damn thing unless it's fighting its own kind.
     
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    AtraUnam

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    Can confirm beams still have issues against armor, may or may not have something to do with failed pierce sending damage into the void.
     
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    I was under the impression that beams were meant to pierce until they hit any block with an armour rating, so beams issues against armour is probably intentional. I could be wrong there though, haven't really messed around with it.
     
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    I was under the impression that beams were meant to pierce until they hit any block with an armour rating, so beams issues against armour is probably intentional. I could be wrong there though, haven't really messed around with it.
    Beams do a part of their damage to the first block they hit, a smaller part to the second block, an even smaller part to the third block and so on. Penetration depth depends on weapon group size. If hitting an armor block all those damage instances go that one block, but only as long as there's armor HP left. After that all but the first damage instance simply disappear instead. This behaviour is a confirmed bug.
     
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    Az14el

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    The alternative was ships being pretty much unbuilt from the inside out by beams though... they need to be reworked so they're not just reskinned/faster cannons before they're worth working on is my thoughts.

    Couple of beam ships about that can make a mockery of this "beams r automatically bad" idea though (one of them being blowed up in my sig)
     
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    Crashmaster

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    I didn't see any mention of thrust to mass so far. The space required for enough thrusters for a fast ship is significant and I find it's easy to let speed end up as a dump stat after building large weapon systems and shield banks ect. As for an optimal thrust to mass to aim for, 'faster then the other guy,' is my best guess.
     

    Az14el

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    I didn't see any mention of thrust to mass so far. The space required for enough thrusters for a fast ship is significant and I find it's easy to let speed end up as a dump stat after building large weapon systems and shield banks ect. As for an optimal thrust to mass to aim for, 'faster then the other guy,' is my best guess.
    Right you are, and something I forgot :p
    At these sizes mobility is still king (pretty much up well past the 30k mark you need to be mobile), It doesn't have to be 2.5twr & overdrive (in fact at anything far beyond shuttle sizes I consider this counter mobility pretty much), 1.5 & a good thrust config can turn & strafe against the best of them, much more than this is more useful for travel (like on a salvager zipping between asteroid sectors) than combat. Though it certainly can still be used pretty effectively like we saw in last years B&S. Sacrificing too much for thrust can get you pulverised by any turret/pilot that can still track you, which takes far less investment.