Is Starmade going to be a Survival or RTS style of game?

    What Genre will Starmade be best at?

    • RTS

      Votes: 34 81.0%
    • Survival

      Votes: 8 19.0%

    • Total voters
      42
    Joined
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages
    723
    Reaction score
    200
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    In medieval age, peoples worked mostly for food. Now we have to work 4 hours a day and everything above is paid via taxes to warmongers, research and rebuilding after destruction - and don'T forget rich peoples which don'T work and their lawyers which aren't really "productive".

    But when we have nano-assemblers and space-craft, what stops us from exploiting asteroids using methods which are toxic for terrestrial environment but cheaper?
    What stops us from making a star-sized ship?
    The result of my analysis of SM is that we play God as soon as we get automated unlimited mining capacity and can copy+paste produce ships from it without personal involvement required, except the will to do it.
    The solution for that might be rare resources; So rare that only automated minning fleets can find them. Those rare resources would let you to produce far more advanced ships that are far stronger than normal ones.

    I'd suggest that 200m ship made from rarest resources, would outperform planet or star sized ship made from basic crap.

    The only sane RTS can happen with if all players are able to hurt and help each other equally, based on their skills.
    In Stellaris, there are many empires, strong empires don't care about poor ones, because it would be waste of time to attack them.
    AI factions could be additional targets here in RTS Starmade.

    The only sane Survival can happen if you limit yourself to a single factory or point-of-failure.
    I'd shoot for survival at the beginning and RTS starting in mid-late game. Also RTS game should start slowly, so you'd have stages like "survival game where you have few automated drones that mine for you". Expensive salvage technology can do it.


    The only sane Creative can happen if you can show your creations on a server without having to risk it being blown up.
    It's hard in current state of game, as it's mainly survival now. In RTS, dimplomacy would play bigger role than now.


    As long as you create a collection where every byte of data is important for the whole, it's Creative.
    As soon as you copy+paste to make "more" to make it "better" in combat, it will become RTS.
    We have the same thing now. You can build pretty ship or cube of doom. It can happen in every game, no reason to exclude RTS players from being creative builders. It's actually easier, as now you might build pretty ship at the beginning, but later you will need to scale it, which might make you want to just put some block of cannons under your ship.

    If You'll have fleets of standarised ships, then it would be easier, as you final design, will be final for whole group of ships.

    When these two merge, your power-level grows exponentially which is toxic for RTS with many factions if you aren't online 24/7 and everyone after the fresh server starts.
    Hunting down offline players is pitfal of every Multiplayer RTS.

    Survival is
    1. exploring the easiest at-hand solution to a treat (only works once).
    2. speed-racing through tutorials or a self-made checklist (works after you did #1)
    3. facing treats however big you are or have built - it could bomb you back to stone-age too! No personal safe-files on MP-servers.
    But trolls which enjoy destruction will ruin your MP-survival game if you do not make it offline or with trusted members.
    Life is all about trust.
     

    NeonSturm

    StormMaker
    Joined
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages
    5,110
    Reaction score
    617
    • Wired for Logic
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    The solution for that might be rare resources; So rare that only automated minning fleets can find them. Those rare resources would let you to produce far more advanced ships that are far stronger than normal ones.
    Rare resources only delay it or increase the time frame, if it is automated.
    In Stellaris, there are many empires, strong empires don't care about poor ones, because it would be waste of time to attack them.
    I hope this gets true here too - else all hope is gone!
    AI factions could be additional targets here in RTS Starmade.
    When these two merge, your power-level grows exponentially which is toxic for RTS with many factions if you aren't online 24/7 and everyone after the fresh server starts.
    Hunting down offline players is pitfal of every Multiplayer RTS.
    Your reply does not match your quote. Exponentially means "played time", not "currently offline". The answer could be understood if you said "less active members" instead of "offline".
    Life is all about trust.
    You can't trust the internet :p​
     

    Master_Artificer

    Press F to pay respects
    Joined
    Feb 17, 2015
    Messages
    1,588
    Reaction score
    612
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Thinking Positive
    Everyone only has a limited time in the day to play starmade, 99% of people won't spend the time to hunt and kill 1 man factions unless provoked or they occupy an important ststem.
     

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    316
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    Everyone only has a limited time in the day to play starmade, 99% of people won't spend the time to hunt and kill 1 man factions unless provoked or they occupy an important ststem.
    lol than there's people like me that spend much of their time filling whole systems with stations for defense or just to screw with people trying to figure out where to not jump. :)
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,115
    Reaction score
    1,229
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    What stops us from making a star-sized ship?
    You mean besides resources, computer processing power, and server rules?

    Anyway, the solution to giant ships is simple.
    -Expensive. This is already in. You might be ABLE to build a massive mining fleet and build everything, but there's a limited amount of resources you can get from a system, and there will be other people who want those systems. If you limit the game to a server configurable number of galaxies (I'd say 3 as vanilla), there will be plenty of space but not too much that people don't fight over it.
    -FP limits on fleet sizes. If there was a FP cost to fleets, it would make it harder to get unlimited resources, even if you could theoretically gain an exponential mining fleet.
    -Unequal resource distribution. This will generally limit the amount of resources you can get from one location, requiring expansion and trade. You might have enough resources to build a million missile tubes, but that doesn't matter when there's only a handful of asteroids and planets in your territory that have the materials for jump drives and armor.
    -Tactical and Practical flaws in jumbo ships. RTS elements will drive the use of only large ships into the floor. Big ships are an overly large expense that cannot be your primary force. You can't defend all of your territory with a single massive ship, and you can't take on the entire enemy fleet in an offensive with a single massive ship either. For example- Tanks might be very powerful and can certainly take down a lot of infantry on their own, but you cannot have your entire army made of tanks.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    To add on: You can't have an army made out of tanks because tanks can't do everything---they can't enter buildings, take prisoners/hostages/whatever, aren't always great at taking out infantry or aircraft, etc.

    You must have aircraft, infantry, naval forces, and tanks.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,168
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I have a feeling Starmade is going more in the direction of a fleshed-out version of Wing Commander: Privateer than a less-limited Minecraft. In some respects I like that, but it's also disappointing because Starmade has so much potential for Minecraft-like survival gameplay, the difference being that in Starmade you aren't limited to the ground beneath your feet. I really do believe that the game can have both, and do both well.

    One thing that stands in the way of both survival and strategy is the Starmade Dock community's fear of depletable resources like fuel, ammunition, and food. As a result, a lot of potential players will be turned off by the vanilla game and instead wait for a modding API (if it ever happens) to add in these essential elements. No matter how loudly people scream, it stands that many gamers like this sort of challenge and the starmade community is being gimped.
     

    Lukwan

    Human
    Joined
    Oct 30, 2015
    Messages
    691
    Reaction score
    254
    One thing that stands in the way of both survival and strategy is the Starmade Dock community's fear of depletable resources like fuel, ammunition, and food. As a result, a lot of potential players will be turned off by the vanilla game and instead wait for a modding API (if it ever happens) to add in these essential elements.
    Ideally, SM could be inclusive of both Survival (more an SP thing) as well as RTS. It would be worth designing two different game-modes with one of them using consumable fuel, air & ammo etc. This attracts a wider audience and adds flexibility for server-admins to tailor the play-style. The term hardcore comes to mind.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MacThule
    Joined
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages
    338
    Reaction score
    148
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    I think the game will be both, depending upon which server you end up on and the rules of that particular server. Some might be pure survival and have rules imposed by the owner to make it so, and vice versa. There may even be unregulated servers where it can be both at once, or none of the above. The ball is in our court here, given that the server owners have nearly full control through config/setting options, and most likely other mechanics the Devs haven't implemented yet. Either way, it's one hell of a ride.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MacThule
    Joined
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages
    145
    Reaction score
    21
    Everything is viable, given starmade has such a dedicated player base, And a dev team who literally wants to accommodate everyone's Visio of the game..builders invested in their creations, PvP players looking to go tow to tow with very large combat ships, testing their engineering prowers, RP players and builders wishing to have the best sim environment, crew members breathing oxygen, populated city's and stations, food etc.. Faction people going to empire up and wants multi systemwide battles. Explorers looking to see the new, exotic, to find Easter eggs, rare blocks and blueprints, rare creatures.... I don't see a reason we can't have it all.
     

    DrTarDIS

    Eldrich Timelord
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages
    1,114
    Reaction score
    310
    i'd honestly say i preferred the old school "arcade" feel starmade had. Dislike the "survival&RTS" aspects that "broke" the "jump in and blow stuff up" arcade feel.
     
    Joined
    Nov 30, 2015
    Messages
    855
    Reaction score
    75
    It would be great if it had the survival start, RTS interactive midlate. Makes me think of Agrarian skies or crash landing Modpacks. One thing that would be nessisary would be a create world screen, where you could pick and chose what features you wanted to have. Galaxy, build, or fleet limits? Different feature difficulty levels(hunger, fuel, Pirates, other factions)? Resource density? Think of the mine craft create world screen, and the customized world page.
     
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    923
    Reaction score
    292
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    Frankly I think Starmade has far less semblance to RTS than it does to 4X. I see the ultimate evolution of Starmade being that of a 4X game with survival and RTS elements to it.
     

    Raisinbat

    Raging Troll
    Joined
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages
    459
    Reaction score
    269
    Starmade will never function as an RTS. RTS requires all participants to start out on equal footing, since people join servers at different times, older players will always outperform newer players, this is why MMO RTS attempts are universal garbage; they need tons of equalizers to bring new players up to par with old players until the RTS part is completely irrelevant.

    If servers would reboot every few hours then maybe it could happen, but then everyone's stuff gets erased. Nobody wants that so wont happen.

    Maybe it'll work as a survival game but that would require a lot more obstacles, like fuel, enemies that are actual threats and less trivial mining.
     

    Lukwan

    Human
    Joined
    Oct 30, 2015
    Messages
    691
    Reaction score
    254
    Starmade will never function as an RTS. RTS requires all participants to start out on equal footing, since people join servers at different times, older players will always outperform newer players, this is why MMO RTS attempts are universal garbage; they need tons of equalizers to bring new players up to par with old players until the RTS part is completely irrelevant.
    This may be true of the individual players but that is not how SM is structured. If there is a RTS element going on it is between factions...not individuals. Starmade is a game with a persistent universe and a bunch of players, not a one-off RTS battle between two individuals. It is a hybrid that is unlike traditional RTS games.

    Panpiper makes a good point:

    Frankly I think Starmade has far less semblance to RTS than it does to 4X. I see the ultimate evolution of Starmade being that of a 4X game with survival and RTS elements to it.
     

    Raisinbat

    Raging Troll
    Joined
    Dec 29, 2014
    Messages
    459
    Reaction score
    269
    This may be true of the individual players but that is not how SM is structured. If there is a RTS element going on it is between factions...not individuals. Starmade is a game with a persistent universe and a bunch of players, not a one-off RTS battle between two individuals. It is a hybrid that is unlike traditional RTS games.
    It's probably just me fuzzing over genre definitions, but what makes an RTS an RTS is fundamentally fighting over resources. Everything you do in an RTS can be seen in terms of resource gain/loss. This means that when someone has a monumental resource advantage it's no longer practical for them to lose.

    When you make long-term persistent resources a thing where games last so long people aren't able to participate through the whole thing whoever invests the most resources will ultimately dominate. This makes tactical battles irrelevant to the RTS, because it's impossible to beat an army 10x your size. Like i said, MMO RTS experiments all result in so many strings attached to the RTS that there's effectively nothing left. Tactical combat can be salvaged to a point but that's not what makes something an RTS, and with these battles handled in OOS combat, which they will be after you've played enough to have multiple fleets around, the tactical combat is also lost.

    What starmade and it's planned features really reminds me of is : start in little ship, gradually work yourself up to larger more effective ships, get fleet, get bases, keep growing until you have aaaaall the money, and it's inheriting all of it's problems, while failing a lot of the strengths.

    Tactical fleet combat is perfectly doable in this game, but nobody does it because
    1. It's too damn fiddly. Manually launching/retrieving fighters alone is extremely tedious through the command system, which is pretty much identical to how starmade's is set up. This is NOTHING compared to the headache of replenishing combat losses; buying new fighters, outfitting new fighters, reassigning fighters to carriers after almost every single fight is downright unbearable even with just a single carrier. Then there's boarding, cargo/ammo/fuel transfer between ships
    2. Big ships never die. If your ship is tanky enough to never lose shields, there's no loss in combat. Even in cases where fighters might be more suitable, constantly losing fighters will chew into your resources and stack more micromanagement on top of you.
    3. Combat is rarely profitable, and when it is you're better off doing it solo in a good ship. AI is too dumb ( and it's MUCH better than starmade's) to avoid engaging in fights it can't win or automatically withdraw.
    4. Poor combat ballance with tactical exploits. If you think swarmer spammers are bad you should see what an X3 missile frigate can do. These fuckers will singlehandedly annihilate enemy homesectors without ever taking damage, and you can make titans like this in starmade.
    X3 however has a multitude of advantages over starmade. Manufacturing and resource gathering is a lot more involved, progression is appropriately slow making each step you take feel like a real accomplishment and OOS combat still has enough simulation to it that tactics still matter. Cargo capacity is much less ridiculous so transports and by extension trade is much more viable, and since the world is finite, doomsday aliens taking over systems is actually a threat.

    Huge sandbox with faction warfare is dumb, unfunny garbage that sounds good on paper, but never works.
     

    madman Captain

    Self-appointet Overlord of the Scaffold
    Joined
    Jan 11, 2015
    Messages
    263
    Reaction score
    491
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Ahh X3, good old times. Command a fleet, managing a Company, be a simple merchant, become a hero or lure around with your trusty ship.
    Only limited by the nonexist of a multicore prozessor support.

    Great game, greater mods/skrips.

    Trade. Fight. Build. Explore.Travel.;)
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Raisinbat
    Joined
    Nov 30, 2015
    Messages
    855
    Reaction score
    75
    Huge sandbox with faction warfare is dumb, unfunny garbage that sounds good on paper, but never works.
    I agree with you on the post, but just about this statement; what about minecraft faction servers?
     
    Joined
    Jul 5, 2013
    Messages
    169
    Reaction score
    112
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 10
    Raisinbat we see that you don't want the game to be RTS, but it's your point of view. It's not garbage, even with your good arguments, as there are far more people that want an RTS-like game than survivalists (although in this topic). Please accept what other people think.
    (In any case this is not a personnal attack, it's just what I felt when reading some of your words)

    Don't forget the fact StarMade will evolve, some (if not all) the functionnalities will change ;)
     
    Last edited: