Is Starmade going to be a Survival or RTS style of game?

[Master_Artificer]

For the sake of the argument let's say that starmade will continue to have a low budget and low staff.

If we have to compromise/forsake one for the other, what Genre would you prefer Starmade to plant its flag in and stand firm?

Survival
-or-
Real Time Strategy

Would you rather, when it is all said and done, have starmade be a great Survival game and mediocre RTS game?
Or a great RTS and mediocre Survival?

What do you think is going to happen extrapolating from this point forward?
(it would be nice if we could have both, wouldn't it? But that would make this discussion bland...)
I really thought of this question after listening to the entirety of this video.

 

[Winterhome]

Honestly, given the direction people want automation and AI to go? It'll almost certainly be a full-on RTS rather than a proper "Survival" game. The single-ship/single-astronaut playstyle is almost guaranteed to take a backseat to the empire-building and RTS warfare stuff.

Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't going to be survival elements. "Survival sandbox" as a genre just means that you're pretty much just having to defend yourself while gathering resources to help defend yourself in a semi-open world. By default, having to gather resources to build ships while there are hostile NPC factions makes it a "survival sandbox", which is a very vaguely defined genre anyhow.

 

[terra mining corp.]

I hope the game doesn't go full rts,I like the building aspect of the game it's more laidback,and the survival just adds suspence

 

[Sgtwisky]

I chose RTS for a few reasons.

1. Sandbox Survival really means (to me at least) gathering/crafting thing, and possibly making sure you don't die. Weather death is from bullets or hunger. AND We basically have that now. To me it describes the foundation for other mechanics and less its own thing.

2. Who doesn't want to command large fleets in epic battles while sitting in their comfy captains chair, on their "Command Ship" with a glass of their favorite drink in hand.

But I think even if we focused more on RTS from here on out, we would still have a decent hybrid of the two.

 

[AtraUnam]

It'll start of as a survival game and will continue to be so for most players but at a couple of levels it'll act like an RTS:

• Mining, this will almost certainly be automated either fully or partially with players commanding mining ships via fleets either from a mothership or all the way back at HB.
• Inter fleet combat, at the level of commanding a fleet it is likely that the commanding player will largely be issuing orders to the other ships in the fleet be they player or NPC, wether the commanding player also pilots their own ship or has a personal helmsman its probably going to vary from faction to faction.
• Inter faction combat, this is where the game will likely go full rts with the head of a faction operating almost exclusively in rts view either directly controlling the faction's AI fleet or issuing commands to intermediary subordinates depending on the size and makeup of the faction.

 

[Lukwan]

I actually watched (and skimmed a bit) that video. It was pretty good and on point.

I'm of mixed feelings because I like all of the elements: RTS, Survival & Build-game. I'll get off the fence and say RTS. In spite of my fears I do dream of epic space battles with regular players that go back and forth over time. It is heavy commitment of time and effort but risking what you build adds spice...and the Spice must flow (the balance of power must be maintained). I have enjoyed MP clan-fights in other games and SM will make a great platform for this kind of play.

One of the main undercurrents I have noticed in the forums is that most people want to see the game balanced. Game-balance is crucial for a MP RTS structure to function so every suggestion is poked and prodded to make sure it doesn't break the game. I'm confidant that if even half of what is planned gets included in the final release SM will be a great survival or build game anyway so: focus on MP RTS.

 

[HorribleHedgehog]

Early game survival, mid-to-late game RTS. With this in mind I hope RTS elements get more attention, since late game is very important for a game that asks for quite a bit of commitment to get into.

 

[El_Poulpy]

for my part i think Starmade should be a great RTS and little survival game.
In my opinion the survival part is almost sufficient, the only survival mechanic we only need yet is:

• a simple oxygen system

• a block when powered that makes an oxygen area the size of the ship bounding box
• a block when powered that allows to recharge the oxygen tank of the player suit

• a boarding hacking system allowing to shut down ship systems

the others mechanic only need polishing : movements, gears
the rest of the survival aspect would come from the danger of the universe (fauna, npc, black hole, quasar, ..)

the RTS is almost void for now but is getting worked on

 

[kurosawa]

SM has times on it's side and as such can do it all, limiting your self from the start by only choosing a little is a defeatist attitude

What went wrong with No mans sky was over hyping and fanboyism spiraling out of control

 

[Drakkart]

i'd go for voxel building space sim. which includes survival, strategy, multiplayer pvp but also
- simulated population - > generated demand for goods
- growing ressources and need for food.
- demand driven economy - > generates quests and influences ai decision making
- npc traders establishing trade routes as well as pirates trying to get heir share.

 

[JinM]

If we have to compromise/forsake one for the other, what Genre would you prefer Starmade to plant its flag in and stand firm?

Survival
-or-
Real Time Strategy

Would you rather, when it is all said and done, have starmade be a great Survival game and mediocre RTS game?
Or a great RTS and mediocre Survival?

I really thought of this question after listening to the entirety of this video.

I saw that video too, and if you are interested in game design for starters I recommend this video and the others 2 short texts. It just tangents your question but scratches about some basic game dev knowledge.

Spoiler

Also I recommend to read some stuff the developer of Rimworld talks about. The Simulation Dream | Tynan Sylvester

To answer your main question: As the survival part is okayish atm I would prefer more strategic elements to be added. This question is very easily answered.

But your question aims to the question "What game mechanic makes the most fun for you?". Short answer is: neither without the other one. If I can not battle in 3D with my own build space ships (sandbox that belongs to the survival part), or if I can't command several ships at once for some strategic moves this game won't be Starmade for me. So to be fun for me, this game needs booth aspects at once. If I would think up a new game, I would choose the RTS direction because thats more thrilling for me. The most fun for me atm are pirate attacks.

Leading to my next point: A game needs to make its side mechanics work together. If you add one gameplay rule it immediatelly impacts the others, like adding a trading station that give you stuff for some questionable effort.
Example: The purpose of exploring got a huge downgrade when the trading stations just sold me the weapon parts in exchange for some lousy astroid chunks. Exploring became late game stuff, when you need huge ammounts of weapon and advanced blocks. Early game you just can get that few advanced blocks via cheap mining and trading.

At the end I hope Starmade deepens gameplay for the existing mechanics by debugging and fleshing them out. My favorites: pirate attacks, fleet, trade, planets, block diversity, production chains.

And adds new gameplay like storage sorting including a cargo belt systems, command blocks for NPC walking routes and storage content or game rule checking, animals, ship invading by hull breaching, energy production diversity (reactors powered by items and a different kind of energy for long jumps etc), gravity affected ship-types with wheels or hover ability. That list is expandable, but I just wrote down my favorites.

 

[NeonSturm]

One of the main undercurrents I have noticed in the forums is that most people want to see the game balanced. Game-balance is crucial for a MP RTS structure to function so every suggestion is poked and prodded to make sure it doesn't break the game. I'm confidant that if even half of what is planned gets included in the final release SM will be a great survival or build game anyway so: focus on MP RTS.

In medieval age, peoples worked mostly for food. Now we have to work 4 hours a day and everything above is paid via taxes to warmongers, research and rebuilding after destruction - and don'T forget rich peoples which don'T work and their lawyers which aren't really "productive".

But when we have nano-assemblers and space-craft, what stops us from exploiting asteroids using methods which are toxic for terrestrial environment but cheaper?
What stops us from making a star-sized ship?
​

The result of my analysis of SM is that we play God as soon as we get automated unlimited mining capacity and can copy+paste produce ships from it without personal involvement required, except the will to do it.

The only sane RTS can happen with if all players are able to hurt and help each other equally, based on their skills.
The only sane Survival can happen if you limit yourself to a single factory or point-of-failure.
The only sane Creative can happen if you can show your creations on a server without having to risk it being blown up.
There is still insanity, such as sturdily claiming RTS is Creative or Survival is "who survives the server-lag".

​

As long as you create a collection where every byte of data is important for the whole, it's Creative.
As soon as you copy+paste to make "more" to make it "better" in combat, it will become RTS.
When these two merge, your power-level grows exponentially which is toxic for RTS with many factions if you aren't online 24/7 and everyone after the fresh server starts.

Survival is

1. exploring the easiest at-hand solution to a treat (only works once).
2. speed-racing through tutorials or a self-made checklist (works after you did #1)
3. facing treats however big you are or have built - it could bomb you back to stone-age too! No personal safe-files on MP-servers.

But trolls which enjoy destruction will ruin your MP-survival game if you do not make it offline or with trusted members.


Ok, what's left?
RTS with ruled creations.
RTS where everyone is responsible for keeping the strongest in check (and if not, admins have to do it).

Destroying others without own losses leads to evil things.
If you own 1,2 or 3 equal ships, one is more valuable to you than to one which can mass-produce 1000 of them a day. Losses are relative!​

Survival is ruined by warmonger trolls which invade every community - play singleplayer.
Creative is ruined by warmonger trolls which invade every community - allow fights between entities which are selected by players only.

 

[Drakkart]

the ability to copy and paste is a feature given in the game which i consider awesome to have. the abundance of ressources which then could spiral everything out of balance i actually don't see as much as a problem for 1st it is awesome that it is possible and second everyone plays with the same opportunities so balance should restore itself. My point is though the copy paste feature or reproduction of ships i do not think is the issue the issue is that there are to few limiting factors. And let's say we could reproduce everything in a nano assembler i still think real grown food would create a certain diversity in flavors. me given the choice of eating an orange from our local supermarket or an orange which was just harvested two days ago in southern europe and then driven up here. i go for the foreign anytime.

 

[NeonSturm]

second everyone plays with the same opportunities so balance should restore itself.

And let's say we could reproduce everything in a nano assembler i still think real grown food would create a certain diversity in flavors. me given the choice of eating an orange from our local supermarket or an orange which was just harvested two days ago in southern europe and then driven up here. i go for the foreign anytime.

Agree.
There should be different sorts of potatoes with so many tastes … but to sell them, farmers should pay 400€ to an office per sort to make them a legal trade good.

The problem with both your arguments is, that not everyone thinks so.

Some are just too lazy to search for foreign potatoes and go to the local supermarket or do not want to pay a lot more for the foreign one.
Others do not know where to search or how to get a different but equally good foreign product and just stick with a borg-cube or other's content.
​

What I mean is that not everyone is on equal footing here. Everyone has the same chances, but some enjoy the most pressing way more than others do.​

 

[StormWing0]

I'm thinking why not go both a Survival and RTS route? Take a little of both and slap them together and hope it doesn't spawn a demon child.

 

[Winterhome]

I'm thinking why not go both a Survival and RTS route? Take a little of both and slap them together and hope it doesn't spawn a demon child.

That's sorta the point of the thread, though. We're not so much talking about doing both, which we're definitely doing, so much as talking about whether it would be better for it to be one or the other. :P

 

[Lukwan]

Lets not forget that each of the 'types' of players (Combatant, Survivalist and Builder) will be playing on separate servers. It is not necessary that SM balance each of these elements to share a galaxy on a single server. Brawlers will gravitate to faction-servers, Builders will gather in 'build-sectors' or build servers and survival will be an option for single-player or Survival-servers. These types of player are not mutually exclusive and they don't have to be played in same sandbox.

What is required is that each of these play-styles are possible and have the elements to work in their own way. The play-styles are meant to be encompassed by the game (Starmade) not each individual server.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

I don't really think this thread is a useful way of looking at the game. Starmades "survival" elements are always going to come down to "Do I have a good enough ship to survive what might come after me?". There's no real need for keeping track of depleting meters etc like the typical survival game, and the developers have expressed a lack of interest in adding them. Likewise, describing the game (or what will come of it) as an "RTS" also doesn't really feel right to me either, since it doesn't have the even playing field an RTS requires, or any kind of victory goals etc (outside of prearranged events etc a server might do).The only real way to describe Starmade and the direction it's taking is "sand box". You arrive in the universe with the bare minimum of equipment and from there the universe is your oyster.

The survival elements are there to add a sense of risk and challenge, and to feel like you're working towards something. You start off small, and as you pick up materials etc you grow. The RTS esque elements are really a way to enhance that more then anything, you starting off with only yourself and if the mood strikes you build an empire from virtually nothing. Another important thing to keep in mind about this aspect of the game is that a major reason the features are being added is to make the universe feel more alive, as NPCs will benefit from the framework, making the player feel more like part of an actual universe. Something else to bare in mind is the other forthcoming features planned to enhance the "part of a universe" feeling, like more reasons to explore planets, quests/missions (and if I remember correctly the ability to give them to other players?) etc.

Obviously you're right in that the game can't do everything, but the direction Starmade should take imo is to give the players the best sandbox universe it can.

 

[Madman198237]

Pacific_Jim
If the universe is an oyster...and the goal is then to get the pearl (Violating the use of the word "oyster" as a metaphor, since an oyster has a goal you can reach)....

We seem to use an awful lot of high explosives in the process of opening this oyster.

 

[Nauvran]

Pacific_Jim
If the universe is an oyster...and the goal is then to get the pearl (Violating the use of the word "oyster" as a metaphor, since an oyster has a goal you can reach)....

We seem to use an awful lot of high explosives in the process of opening this oyster.

When in doubt, use C4.