Is slow travel a contributing factor to the decline of PvP?

[Croquelune]

I never complete ship yet so never experiment PvP on Starmade but I had already identified and thought at this problem. It's not only slow travel, it's an aggregate of facts which deters players to do PvP. Somes are chronic problem which is common to lot of .php games like Ogame, or somes mmorpg (which are simply dying cause of that).

Fact I : The 1st wave of players to come to a new universe/server would gain a durable advantage and often will keep it all along the server life (e.g. Ogame).
--> If you're not from that wave you'll got a propensity to avoid fight because you'll never be the top predator of the pyramid.

Fact II : Then another category will also unbalance the game, the unemployed nolife who will farm and catch up their late or build a crazy advance (cumulate fact I & II and the player should reach the server deity if he's a bit experimented in the game).
--> If you're not have enought time to match up the nolife gameplay you'll got a propensity to avoid fight aswell.

Fact III : Prey prefer run and hide than confront. So let's imagine I join an hardcore server where "all blows are allowed" (sorry for the Frenchism but don't know the English equivalent) with 2-3 years of late. For sure if I'm not a stupid suicidal guy my first action will be to fly far away the central system and to not stick around strong guys (like Ogame). Then it would be to convince my allies to gather somewhere and grow together. But even like that we can't prevent a sudden attack and rampage from top tiers unless we play starmade like nolife (like Ogame). Or join the strong side.
--> If you want to growth and reach a certain level before PvP it's natural to looking for peace remoted place, so de facto you'll got a propensity to avoid fight. With the feeling to be a potential prey a player would have ABSOLUTELY no point to looking for PvP.

Fact IV : The threesome rule. Take 3 equivalent factions ; 2 factions begin to fight each other, they go weaken and mitigates. At the end the 3rd factions will take care of the rest, and should win easy. That's what happen often in RTS.
--> Conclusion : in this situation statu quo is the best tactic, de facto you'll got a propensity to avoid fight.

Fact V : You could take months to build real efficient ship, if it destroyed during his WIP phase or even when it is finished you could got a frustrastion feeling or even demotivaional one. Anyway it won't be a joyfull one like "Oh yeah ! I got fucked up ! Youhou !"
--> With your fleet jewel you'll got a propensity to avoid risky fight, or even simply avoid fight by fear of retaliations.

Fact VI : If your ship is destroyed, it's forever. They are actually no wreckage, no recycle ability, nothing which can spare you half resources our half time, so you'll have to rebuild all from the beginning.
--> Hell no, propensity to avoid fight.

I'm sure it miss some reasons but it's already enough to conclude if you are not top players of the server your propensity to looking for random PvP reach something around 0.05% for the more bellicists.

At the moment, the only viable in my point of view are Role Play server. Where PvP can be planified as event and where factions can conclude a kind of "chivalry code of conduct".

All my ship will have color light spot which use color code to transmit intentions with circuit things ; e.g. the intermittent red one will be the code for "this ship is surrendering" and hope to avoid total annihilation.

 

[jayman38]

Would PvP benefit from an old-fashioned per-player point system, where you simply rack-up points (not credits, not anything you can build or buy with. Just arbitrary points) for doing anything from traveling, to mining, to destroying blocks, to building blocks, to building ships?
E.g. Travelled 5 more sectors away from spawn: +1, Built 100,000 more blocks: +1, Destroyed 100,000 more blocks: +1, Destroyed enemy ship: enemy ship blocks / 1,000,000 + 1, Mined an asteroid: +1, Mined a planet plate: -1, Destroyed Planet Core: -1, Bought a new ship: +1, etc...

Would more admin control and admin-command scripts help PvP? (Set sectors to PvP by using math rules, combine a, b, and c factions into team 1, and x, y, and z factions into team 2, and force-teleport each team into adjoining PvP sectors for a 10-minute team deathmatch?)

Would free copies of ships help PvP? I think Battle mode was supposed to do that. (Give the player a free copy of their ship and transport them to an "arena" sector) Maybe a comms-initiated "battle" mode between two agreeing players, like a duel mode?

Would special AI-spawned fleets, beyond just the relatively weak pirates, help PvP? (Combine forces to attack the threat, and then once that threat is eliminated, continue bashing on each other, since everyone is already damaged anyway.)

Would movement-based PvP (Capture the Flag) help?

 

[Valck]

Would PvP benefit from an old-fashioned per-player point system, where you simply rack-up points (not credits, not anything you can build or buy with. Just arbitrary points) for doing anything from traveling, to mining, to destroying blocks, to building blocks, to building ships?
E.g. Travelled 5 more sectors away from spawn: +1, Built 100,000 more blocks: +1, Destroyed 100,000 more blocks: +1, Destroyed enemy ship: enemy ship blocks / 1,000,000 + 1, Mined an asteroid: +1, Mined a planet plate: -1, Destroyed Planet Core: -1, Bought a new ship: +1, etc...

Would more admin control and admin-command scripts help PvP? (Set sectors to PvP by using math rules, combine a, b, and c factions into team 1, and x, y, and z factions into team 2, and force-teleport each team into adjoining PvP sectors for a 10-minute team deathmatch?)

Would free copies of ships help PvP? I think Battle mode was supposed to do that. (Give the player a free copy of their ship and transport them to an "arena" sector) Maybe a comms-initiated "battle" mode between two agreeing players, like a duel mode?

Would special AI-spawned fleets, beyond just the relatively weak pirates, help PvP? (Combine forces to attack the threat, and then once that threat is eliminated, continue bashing on each other, since everyone is already damaged anyway.)

Would movement-based PvP (Capture the Flag) help?

In my opinion the only thing that can help PvP is consensual PvP. If you want server wide PvP, make it known so people who don't enjoy the permanent life on the edge can avoid it. If you do not want server wide PvP, make it known and establish rules when PvP is acceptable.
If you do not want PvP at all, make it known and enforce it.

EDIT:
Addendum: The only things I can imagine would work are either full PvP or no PvP at all. Any middle ground is bound to end in tears.

 

[StormWing0]

In my opinion the only thing that can help PvP is consensual PvP. If you want server wide PvP, make it known so people who don't enjoy the permanent life on the edge can avoid it. If you do not want server wide PvP, make it known and establish rules when PvP is acceptable.
If you do not want PvP at all, make it known and enforce it.

Could always make it so when a player opens fire on another player tat a scrip spawns a few of the most dangerous ships in the catalog to attack the offending player. :P

 

[Valck]

Could always make it so when a player opens fire on another player tat a scrip spawns a few of the most dangerous ships in the catalog to attack the offending player. :p

Yay Concord. Isn't working in EVE, won't work in StarMade.

 

[StormWing0]

Yay Concord. Isn't working in EVE, won't work in StarMade.

Worth a try. And yes there is that nagging issue of nuke and run where someone causes enough damage to kill someone and runs away before they spawn in and start shooting. XD

 

[jayman38]

In my opinion the only thing that can help PvP is consensual PvP. If you want server wide PvP, make it known so people who don't enjoy the permanent life on the edge can avoid it. If you do not want server wide PvP, make it known and establish rules when PvP is acceptable.
If you do not want PvP at all, make it known and enforce it.

So, in short, more admin control. (E.g. Admin script: make void sectors PvP, set "VoidPvP.txt" as MotD, on attack in non-PVP space, run "voiddamage.script", argument 1: attacker, argument 2: victim, on attack in PVP space, run "AnnounceCombat.script", argument 1: attacker, argument 2: victim)

 

[Valck]

So, in short, more admin control. (E.g. Admin script: make void sectors PvP, set "VoidPvP.txt" as MotD, on attack in non-PVP space, run "voiddamage.script", argument 1: attacker, argument 2: victim, on attack in PVP space, run "AnnounceCombat.script", argument 1: attacker, argument 2: victim)

Well, there already are admin options to un/-protect sectors. It might help if there were a setting to set the universe as protected by default, and declare sectors, or preferably systems as PvP, in addition and as opposed to the way it is handled currently.
On the other hand, if there are server rules, it would be nice to have an automated way of banning offending players. I have no idea how to automatically detect a non-PvP player on a PvP server though ;p

 

[jayman38]

Well, there already are admin options to un/-protect sectors. It might help if there were a setting to set the universe as protected by default, and declare sectors, or preferably systems as PvP, in addition and as opposed to the way it is handled currently.
On the other hand, if there are server rules, it would be nice to have an automated way of banning offending players. I have no idea how to automatically detect a non-PvP player on a PvP server though ;p

Yeah, all that needs to be in expanded admin powers, like auto-run scripts. Imagine if the non-pvp script that runs simply bans the attacker, instead of doing just nothing at all. On the other hand, it might be kind of funny to watch a would-be troll helplessly fire shot after shot at a victim's ship, doing absolutely nothing, leaving him to wonder why his doomcube of death is not doing its thing.
As far as detecting a non-PvP player, their status can change in the blink of an eye, so it would be better to have the player identified by rule-sets.
Admin abilities would need to include "grey-area" options, like semi-PVP areas and per-player counters, so that you could ban a player after two kickings, each after two warnings, or allow one or two free shots in a semi-PvP area before warning/kicking/banning. That way, with "grey-area" warnings, you don't ban someone for accidentally wandering outside of the PvP area in the middle of a battle. (Not that you wouldn't want to slam the hammer down on any trolls, but the regular PvP players would bug you endlessly with appeal requests for accidental slip-ups.)

 

[Valck]

the regular PvP players would bug you endlessly with appeal requests for accidental slip-ups.

As I said, full PvP or no PvP at all, any middle ground won't work in the long run.

 

[Lecic]

Fact VI : If your ship is destroyed, it's forever. They are actually no wreckage, no recycle ability, nothing which can spare you half resources our half time, so you'll have to rebuild all from the beginning.
--> Hell no, propensity to avoid fight.

Blueprints? You save a BP of your ship.

It would be nice if large, overheated ships turned into salvageable wrecks instead of just disappearing.

 

[Zackey_TNT]

The factor that is killing pvp for this game is lack of anyone who wants to do it.
Simple as that.

Those that do think themselves too worthy to face off against a lesser foe.

Pvp never works unless you force conflicts which is no fun.

Planetside two does this well, You either do pvp or you die

 

[Croquelune]

Blueprints? You save a BP of your ship.

Yep, of course but, from what I remember, you have to cumulate the money + the ressources, right ?

You get it wreckage asteroid field might be cool, at least even if you lose the battle they would still a kind of memorial of that epic battle.

 

[jorgekorke]

Believe it or not, some people specifically enjoy the feel of being alone in a huge galaxy where people are literally hours away from them.

Honestly, I'm gonna sound like a jerk but really that people would be better off on single player instead of loading and using the very few server capacity we have available due to the games poor netcode....



Besides, the issue with pvp is old and obvious now. The game is grindy now and people don't feel like wasting theirs hours and hours of awfully boring mining with a ship loss..

 

[KiloZulu]

I think that PvP is viable and well balanced in the game, but it's not the kind of PvP the OP wants to engage in from the sound of it. PvP as it currently exists is meant to be used for real political gain. When you want to capture the systems of another faction, or stop them from doing the same to you, as a prime example. In such a situation, the loss of ships is the price for stripping away an enemy faction's control of a sector.

For players who just want to go around shooting other players, this likely isn't very satisfying. In reality, however, this game simply doesn't work on that level, as I think other replies in this thread have touched upon. Mainly, PvP devolves into a question of who has the most time and opportunity to build the baddest ship. Only a few players are interested in that arms race (rat race?) When the majority of the players aren't willing to, or cannot, compete with these players, it's just some guy running around bullying everyone else and thinking it's soooo funny.

For that bully to then complain that it takes too long to run around collecting lunch money...how small do they make violins?

 

[StormWing0]

lol I build more dangerous ships not bigger ones. :P I'm more likely to send a fleet of expendable drones to an area than I am anything larger than a frigate unless I have to.

 

[Lecic]

I think that PvP is viable and well balanced in the game, but it's not the kind of PvP the OP wants to engage in from the sound of it. PvP as it currently exists is meant to be used for real political gain. When you want to capture the systems of another faction, or stop them from doing the same to you, as a prime example. In such a situation, the loss of ships is the price for stripping away an enemy faction's control of a sector.

For players who just want to go around shooting other players, this likely isn't very satisfying. In reality, however, this game simply doesn't work on that level, as I think other replies in this thread have touched upon. Mainly, PvP devolves into a question of who has the most time and opportunity to build the baddest ship. Only a few players are interested in that arms race (rat race?) When the majority of the players aren't willing to, or cannot, compete with these players, it's just some guy running around bullying everyone else and thinking it's soooo funny.

For that bully to then complain that it takes too long to run around collecting lunch money...how small do they make violins?

You know what they say about making assumptions?

 

[KiloZulu]

They make an ass out of you and mption?

 

[Harbinger_OF_Cthulhu]

Honestly, I'm gonna sound like a jerk but really that people would be better off on single player instead of loading and using the very few server capacity we have available due to the games poor netcode....

That's your opinion, not that of every player on every server. Nor is it the opinion of very server owner. Understand that a lot of people play the game to build and have fun with friends online, something not easily done while in solo mode... lol... I'm glad you feel that way though, as that is what drives diversity. But understand that it's OK for some people to enjoy different things than you . Also, "using the very few server capacity we have" so you're the person who owns all the servers? lol sorry couldn't resist poking fun at this fallacy.

(I do agree on the grindy aspect of the game, course that can currently be fixed server side, in regards to mining bonus)

 

[KiloZulu]

I'm not trying to attack you for your comments, Lecic, and it was an error on my part to say that you want to engage in that kind of PvP. It was really a conglomeration of replies within the thread that led me to make the statement. By the time I reached the end of the comments your OP had become the genesis.