Ideas for Thrust Update

[Blaza612]

So, as many people know, there's an update for thrust coming at some point. The purpose of this thread is to throw some ideas around that could overhaul thrust, as well as work in conjunction with my Change Warp System suggestion.

Max Speed Determination
Max speed has been something of a problem for a significant time now, as there's always a universal max speed set by server owners. This system will allow for max speed to scale using a thrust to mass ration (t:m) and a base max speed (mS).

Server owners will set a base max speed, which will be used to scale up or down. The max speed will be determined using this formula:

Max Thrust = (t/m) * mS
​

So, if I have a mass to thrust ration of 4:10, and the base max speed is 150, then the formula will look like this:

Max Speed = (4/10) * 150
Max Speed = 60
​

This system would allow for certain ships to be faster than others, adding more variety/diversity to ships and reinforce the idea of roles, and will work with my Change Warp System suggestion, as it'll provide a max speed to reach in order to warp.


Multiple Thruster Types
As the topic of this suggests, there would be multiple forms of thrust that would affect how the general propulsion of a ship works. There are four types of thrusters:

• Hypercoil Flux Thrusters: These are the base thrusters that are already implemented. Max Speed Modifier: none Acceleration Modifier: none

• Sub Light Thrusters: Sub Light thrusters are able to put out more grunt in general, granting a significant boost to max speed with a less significant boost to their acceleration, and are cheap to buy. However, they require fuel in order to operate, making them rather costly in the long run, but are best suited for capital ships. Max Speed Modifier: 3.5x Acceleration Modifier: 2x

• Virtual Plasma Microwave Drive (VPM): The VPM uses intense and precise microwaves in order to interact with virtual particles in a way that it creates a plasma explosion, and thus, thrust. It uses significantly more power than a standard thruster, with only a small increase to max speed, but a horrendously massive boost to acceleration, making it suitable for fighter craft. Max Speed Modifier: 1.5x Acceleration Modifier: 4.5x

• Microwarp Drive: A Microwarp Drive acts similar to the Warp Drive, in the sense that it manipulates space-time to allow the space around the ship, and thus the ship, to move at unmatched speeds. This drive is an exception, as it uses ridiculous power to move at extreme speeds, with a good modifier to both acceleration and max speed. However, since it's using the same system as a Warp Drive, it can be disabled as long as an interdictor is jamming it. You won't be able to move, AT ALL. Max Speed Modifier: 3x Acceleration Modifier: 3x

These will continue to reinforce the idea of creating specific roles for ships, using different forms of thrust to allow more diversity between ships, and create roles such as an interceptor. It of course will add significantly more depth to when it comes to putting thrust on your ship, as each type alters the ship in a variety of ways, as mentioned above.


These ideas are subject to change with community opinions, the values/formula can easily be changed due to discussion on how it can be better balanced.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Max Speed Determination
Max speed has been something of a problem for a significant time now, as there's always a universal max speed set by server owners. This system will allow for max speed to scale using a thrust to mass ration (t:m) and a base max speed (mS).

Server owners will set a base max speed, which will be used to scale up or down. The max speed will be determined using this formula:

Max Thrust = (t/m) * mS
So, if I have a mass to thrust ration of 4:10, and the base max speed is 150, then the formula will look like this:

Max Speed = (4/10) * 150
Max Speed = 60
This system would allow for certain ships to be faster than others, adding more variety/diversity to ships and reinforce the idea of roles, and will work with my Change Warp System suggestion, as it'll provide a max speed to reach in order to warp.

Slight problem there: it is possible to build a ship specifically trimmed for extreme thrust:mass ratios at the cost of pretty much any other stat. I tried it once and ended up with a 40:1 mass ratio, and a[albeit broken] balance change during one update boosted it to 10K:1 thrust per mass. You can see that the max speed will be ridiculous and broken in these cases, unless the base-speed is really low, which would pretty much suck the fun out of every other type of ship[and possibly immobilize them].

Multiple Thruster Types
As the topic of this suggests, there would be multiple forms of thrust that would affect how the general propulsion of a ship works. There are four types of thrusters:

• Hypercoil Flux Thrusters: These are the base thrusters that are already implemented. Max Speed Modifier: none Acceleration Modifier: none

• Sub Light Thrusters: Sub Light thrusters are able to put out more grunt in general, granting a significant boost to max speed with a less significant boost to their acceleration, and are cheap to buy. However, they require fuel in order to operate, making them rather costly in the long run, but are best suited for capital ships. Max Speed Modifier: 3.5x Acceleration Modifier: 2x

• Virtual Plasma Microwave Drive (VPM): The VPM uses intense and precise microwaves in order to interact with virtual particles in a way that it creates a plasma explosion, and thus, thrust. It uses significantly more power than a standard thruster, with only a small increase to max speed, but a horrendously massive boost to acceleration, making it suitable for fighter craft. Max Speed Modifier: 1.5x Acceleration Modifier: 4.5x

• Microwarp Drive: A Microwarp Drive acts similar to the Warp Drive, in the sense that it manipulates space-time to allow the space around the ship, and thus the ship, to move at unmatched speeds. This drive is an exception, as it uses ridiculous power to move at extreme speeds, with a good modifier to both acceleration and max speed. However, since it's using the same system as a Warp Drive, it can be disabled as long as an interdictor is jamming it. You won't be able to move, AT ALL. Max Speed Modifier: 3x Acceleration Modifier: 3x

What prevents me from using a combo of 2 kind of thrusters? Or say a VPM on a supertitan?

 

[Blaza612]

Slight problem there: it is possible to build a ship specifically trimmed for extreme thrust:mass ratios at the cost of pretty much any other stat. I tried it once and ended up with a 40:1 mass ratio, and a[albeit broken] balance change during one update boosted it to 10K:1 thrust per mass. You can see that the max speed will be ridiculous and broken in these cases, unless the base-speed is really low, which would pretty much suck the fun out of every other type of ship[and possibly immobilize them].

I see how that could become a problem, not entirely sure how that could be fixed other than a server set cap.

What prevents me from using a combo of 2 kind of thrusters? Or say a VPM on a supertitan?

Nothing, being able to use them in combination would actually end up being a way to max out your thrust, hadn't thought of it, but could add to overall ship diversity.

 

[jstenholt]

Yeah, not a good idea. First, it adds unnecessary complexity to what should be the most simple part of the game: flying. Second, it seems like you base this and your warp redesign on a game that is not this game: EVE Online. While EVE is a great game, and I love it as much as the next virtual spacefarer, I should point out that this is a voxel-based space building game/sandbox, and not as it were, it is not EVE Online. Our battles don't take place over hundreds of kilometres because the technology behind the game does not allow for us to build amazing looking ships and fight them satisfactorily at range. That is fine because, as I may or may not have stated previously, this is not EVE Online. Everything in Starmade is condensed, and there's no real way around that.

Starmade =/= Real Life

 

[Megacrafter127]

Starmade =/= Real Life

Even IRL there is no speedlimit in space depending on how much thrust you have. Given enough time[and thus energy], you can accelerate anything to any speed[except lightspeed and beyond due to physics].

 

[jstenholt]

Even IRL there is no speedlimit in space depending on how much thrust you have. Given enough time[and thus energy], you can accelerate anything to any speed[except lightspeed and beyond due to physics].

You're just adding to my point. If Starmade is =/= real life then there's no reason we can't have a preset speed limit.

 

[Blaza612]

Yeah, not a good idea. First, it adds unnecessary complexity to what should be the most simple part of the game: flying. Second, it seems like you base this and your warp redesign on a game that is not this game: EVE Online. While EVE is a great game, and I love it as much as the next virtual spacefarer, I should point out that this is a voxel-based space building game/sandbox, and not as it were, it is not EVE Online. Our battles don't take place over hundreds of kilometres because the technology behind the game does not allow for us to build amazing looking ships and fight them satisfactorily at range. That is fine because, as I may or may not have stated previously, this is not EVE Online. Everything in Starmade is condensed, and there's no real way around that.

Starmade =/= Real Life

Whether I've based these ideas off of EVE Online has no relation to it, while EVE certainly influenced the creation of these ideas, I'm not trying to add them simply because EVE has them. For the Warp suggestion, I'm doing that because the current jump system really isn't good, and there is a present issue with scale, as the universe feels too small, and upping the scale would require to use jump/warp, and the current system isn't good, so changing it in a way (that's similar to EVE, yes) that improves it and makes a much nicer transition/use of warp would allow the scale change to happen.

And it isn't too complex. It'll provide different ways of using thrust, while still being simple and not too daunting towards new players, as you only have to slap them everywhere then profit.

You seem to use the fact that Starmade does not equal real life as your main point, but that doesn't mean that we can use different parts of real life. I try to make games/ideas as real as possible, then sacrifice the necessary realism for enjoyment. There's no reason we can have things in Starmade based on real life science or other games, as long as it is ultimately unique and still provides a nice experience, which is exactly what I've done in both this suggestion and the Warp suggestion.

 

[jstenholt]

No. There are many reasons we can't have things in Starmade based on real life. At its core, this game is a sandbox. There's zero point to playing a voxel game where you can't see the voxels you're interacting with. The engine struggles to render large amounts of thing in detail at ranges of only 10-20km, how do you expect to have a fun, meaningful universe to interact with beyond those ranges?

 

[Blaza612]

No. There are many reasons we can't have things in Starmade based on real life. At its core, this game is a sandbox. There's zero point to playing a voxel game where you can't see the voxels you're interacting with. The engine struggles to render large amounts of thing in detail at ranges of only 10-20km, how do you expect to have a fun, meaningful universe to interact with beyond those ranges?

Optimizations and the power of LODs, and the fact that it already happens on servers such as Shattered Skies, in which it's sectors are 12 km big. It becomes difficult to see others, and they start to unload, combat doesn't need to be at long ranges, if anything it'd be more enjoyable at shorter ranges, and neither of my suggestions claims that combat should be done at long range.

 

[jstenholt]

If you believe all of that, just answer this question. Why do we need extra space in between stuff?

 

[Blaza612]

If you believe all of that, just answer this question. Why do we need extra space in between stuff?

Because the scale is quite frankly fucked. The universe feels too small, when it comes to systems. There isn't much space between objects and too much that it becomes cluttered, and ultimately doesn't create the massive scale that a space game really needs. Servers have already increased sector sizes, and that has forced players to use jump drives. The sense of scale is better, but using the jump drive is boring, laborious and ultimately discourages it's own use/travel. Adding in the new warp, while pretty much like EVE, will make travel much smoother, actually move players rather than sitting in one spot for charging, and can allow warp bubbles which will provide more of an incentive to pirates.

When it comes to why moving is better than waiting to charge, it's similar to driving a car in the city or countryside. I prefer driving in the countryside, since I'm constantly moving, it doesn't feel boring and as if I have to wait for anything to happen, which is how I feel whenever I come across traffic lights. It provides more stimulation to the mind, and in my opinion looks significantly better than the current glorified /change_sector.

 

[jstenholt]

So, it's your personal preference then.

 

[Blaza612]

So, it's your personal preference then.

The look of it is my personal preference, but it's been agreed upon that the sense of scale needs to be fixed, and this is a way that allows more mechanics (such as warp inhibitor bubbles) to be implemented.

 

[jstenholt]

Agreed upon by whom?

 

[Blaza612]

Agreed upon by whom?

Those who've replied in the suggestion, agreeing with the change. It's been said a couple of times (with agreement) in the chat. Seriously, you're just nitpicking to try and get around the argument itself.

 

[jstenholt]

That is not what is happening here, you're making sweeping generalizations and assuming that an outpouring of support from a small group of vocal people is an indication that you are on the popular side.

Just be honest with us and say "I personally would like this game better if."

I mean, myself, I like a compact experience. I want more stuff in a smaller area. If I find ten people to agree with me, am I right all of a sudden? Hell no.

There's a middle ground between too cluttered and too empty. I think we're pretty close to that sweet spot myself. If you'll recall, sectors are actually several times larger than they used to be, and the fact that admins have control over how large they are in the .cfg means that you aren't limited by things we used to be limited by. Play on servers with sectors as large as you want, dude. Just don't expect the Devs to jump at the chance to cater the game to that server.

 

[Lancake]

Slight problem there: it is possible to build a ship specifically trimmed for extreme thrust:mass ratios at the cost of pretty much any other stat. I tried it once and ended up with a 40:1 mass ratio, and a[albeit broken] balance change during one update boosted it to 10K:1 thrust per mass. You can see that the max speed will be ridiculous and broken in these cases, unless the base-speed is really low, which would pretty much suck the fun out of every other type of ship[and possibly immobilize them].

You can easily put a hardcap on speed so extreme thrust/mass ratios don't give you extreme speeds.
Something like 3:1 thrust-mass would be the max, anything more and you won't go faster.

 

[Blaza612]

That is not what is happening here, you're making sweeping generalizations and assuming that an outpouring of support from a small group of vocal people is an indication that you are on the popular side.

Just be honest with us and say "I personally would like this game better if."

I mean, myself, I like a compact experience. I want more stuff in a smaller area. If I find ten people to agree with me, am I right all of a sudden? Hell no.

There's a middle ground between too cluttered and too empty. I think we're pretty close to that sweet spot myself. If you'll recall, sectors are actually several times larger than they used to be, and the fact that admins have control over how large they are in the .cfg means that you aren't limited by things we used to be limited by. Play on servers with sectors as large as you want, dude. Just don't expect the Devs to jump at the chance to cater the game to that server.

It becomes safe to make those generalizations because no one has disagreed with me on it, until now (as far as I can remember, not sure if there was an argument on the scale in my Warp suggestion) and when I say make them bigger, I of course don't mean like a hundred or so km. I think Shattered Skies is close to the sweet spot as there is a middle ground for everything.

At no point did I say that they should be ludicrously big, and that everyone agrees. (I might've said the everyone agree part by accident, if I did, that's meant to be majority)

At this point, I'm confused as to what you don't like about it, since your original argument was that Starmade shouldn't be similar to real life.

 

[jstenholt]

Nothing you said there made sense, feel free to rephrase, or just be content with knowing your personal preferences are personal.

 

[Blaza612]

Nothing you said there made sense, feel free to rephrase, or just be content with knowing your personal preferences are personal.

I forgot to paragraph it, is that better? :p