I have idea how to solve Build Block ecenomy issue!

[Byamarro]

As we know build blocks makes salvages completly useless. Build blocks completly ruins economy. But I have idea how to solve this problem. Let's make buildblocks unable to edit naturally generated blocks. Build blocks should be able only to edit blocks placed by players.

 

[NeonSturm]

Possible if we let player-blocks have max-1 hp and naturally generated blocks max hp initially. Then allow to remove all blocks < max hp.

Else I would see issues by taking 1 bit away from orientation or 1/2 from ID bits.

Some players like to build parks inside ships and stations or on their home planet (why not?)

 

[BDLS]

Bad side: Adding another byte to each block to track if a player placed it would increase system demands heavily.

 

[K10wN]

Limiting the ability for build blocks to edit planets is a bad thing if you want to legitimately build a planet base. But I do agree, build blocks do get abused. I see many default stations and planets with 10x10x10 chunks taken out of them.

Maybe the use of a 'cool off timer' after the build block is placed, and after the entity has been made part of the faction could be implemented to stop the immediate build block salvaging problem. This would prevent a build block from being the quicker way to salvage.

An admin can limit the effectiveness of a build block by reducing the advanced build mode max build area. Downside of this is when ship building it also limits the amount of blocks you can place at once.

 

[NeonSturm]

Maybe only have an initial cool-down on not player-made objects (1 bit per station/planet - not per block)
If you fire at the BB with salvagers it could gain remove-charges (you need 1 to remove 1 block as a work around to waiting)

If the cooldown is object-wide shared, it would imply almost no downsides on faction homes.

 

[Zeno9141]

KISS = Build blocks CAN´T delete more than 1 block per click

Nope. That would make station building tedious as hell. Especially when you want to do a part over.

And the undo button has a limit at 10-15 undo's.

 

[K10wN]

Take care when you put blocks and don´t need to be deleted, people at minecraft haven´t a build block and usually makes real nice and bigger structures.

Most people use world edit in Minecraft in creative mode to add/remove/copy large sections. Makes the StarMade advanced build mode look very weak in comparison.

 

[K10wN]

Then another KISS idea, make "natural blocks" and "mineral blocks" useless when they are getted from delete function.

The problem is not just planets, it's also the default stations (which most times are more valuable for the short time taken to destroy one).

Also, making the blocks 'vanish' while building a legitimate planet base is not good either. Dig part of the planet up, lay it back down a different way to change the surface terrain to match what you need it to be. Not being able to do this would mean you need to go salvage a donor planet (more pointless destruction) to gain the materials you need to change the planet you want as your base. Then if you mess up, removing the blocks you placed would then lead to you needing more blocks to put them back again.

**EDIT: The same applies when you legitimately take a default station and modify it for your base. You would need to go salvage another station to get resources instead of just rearrange the existing blocks.

 

[K10wN]

There really is no 'KISS' method that will not impede on the game play from legitimate building point of view, hence my suggestion of a cool down timer after placing the build block. Punish the good players to stop the bad players is not a good choice.

It doesn't even need to be that long. 10 or 15 minutes is about the time it takes to eat an entire planet (old biscuit type planet) with my salvage ship, even less for a station. If the cool down timer was 30 minutes or so, then it would certainly be faster to use your salvage ship.

 

[matheod]

Maybe the build block could require energy to delete a block (exept for ship) ? So if we have a base, we just have to build an energy system, if it's to avoid using a salvage, it's force the player to build before an energy systeM.

 

[Zeno9141]

Seriously though. Build blocks are actually quite tedious for mining. It's not such a big issue.

I actually prefer a salvager, because that does the job far more accurate and clean. And sometimes even faster and with less effort, I just have to tape down the LMB.

 

[ltmauve]

There is the "claim time," basically the "cool-down" that k10wn was talking about, but it's you have to claim it for your faction, and that might incur additional costs (faction points) or be infeasible (because the station/planet is in another faction's sector)
Also, due to a glitch with how Java handles hardware, you don't even need to tape keys. If you unplug your mouse while holding RMB, then the game won't register that you release the button unless the mouse is plugged in.

 

[KillaKrazy]

I don't understand what everyone's issue with the build block is. Don't like it, don't use it.

 

[BDLS]

I don't understand what everyone's issue with the build block is. Don't like it, don't use it.

The issue people have is when they want to a server to have some kind of a decent economy. There is no point in building a salvager when you can just plop down a build block and remove up to 8000 blocks with one click.

In any case, you need to use it to build a station or on a planet. Using astronaut mode to build anything is unacceptable. Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[karkinosz]

I don't understand what everyone's issue with the build block is. Don't like it, don't use it.

Its the fact other people use it to get quick resources (and make salvage ships useless) that annoys people, your argument is really not suitable for this. Not using build blocks for this purpose yourself still means that there will be people who just join a server, build block a station and now have 100k blocks in their first hour. If we want to fix economy long term we really can't let that happen.

My personal solution for this would be that a planet or a station has a block modification value. This is set when it's generated and by default is 0.
For each block taken off an object it's value decreases by 1, however the value cannot become negative. If you try to take blocks off an object with 0 bv(Block modification value) it will fail.

What does this mean? You cannot remove blocks using a build block on a planet unless you happen to have already built on it, then you'll get a leeway depending on how much building you've done. For a pre-generated station the results are the same too.

But when you first start a player made station it has one block and a bv of 0. Meaning everything on a player made station can be edited freely. It also means a sufficiently developed planet, (or one you've spammed your own blocks on) can be edited to an extent too. You should also have an option to set your objects bv back to 0 (making it impossible to scrap) for finished bases if you want the security of knowing that no fool is going to scrap the base while your absent.

TLDR: Idea
Block modification value, starts at 0 for a newly made object. Delete block = -1bv add block =+1bv.

Pros
No build blocking planets.
No build blocking generated stations.
The above two don't negatively affect the economy.
Salvager ships now have more use.
Also

however the value cannot become negative

thus if you put in the effort to salvage the part of the planet you plan to build on you can rebuild the location with the new structures built how you wish (while still being able to edit the planet somewhat due to it now having a high bv value)
Cons.
Some people might prefer/be too lazy to build salvager ships.
Some may dislike that it makes it harder to just buy a build block and get masses of resources from default stations.
This idea is the enemy of any lazy person pretty much since to do the actions we are trying to curve requires genuine effort.
Extra options:
If you could reset an objects bv to 0 you can save player made stations from being build blocked by faction members/spies you invite.
As an option give ships bv scores too, so now you cannot spawn masses of resources or ships in just to scrap them and add free blocks to the economy (as easy as before)

 

[ltmauve]

I'm going to disagree with the "build value" idea simply because it means if you are trying to make an underground hanger on a planet, you can't do that. If you want to replace a bunch of rock with shields, can't do that. If you want to take the parts of a station away so you make them better, can't do that. Cool-down or claim-time works far better at preventing people from simply build-blocking structures to death, while allowing them to modify the structures if they care about them. And yeah, you could get around b-v once you have enough blocks to place down, but in the underground hanger example, where am I going to put those blocks so they look nice?

 

[karkinosz]

I'm going to disagree with the "build value" idea simply because it means if you are trying to make an underground hanger on a planet, you can't do that. If you want to replace a bunch of rock with shields, can't do that. If you want to take the parts of a station away so you make them better, can't do that. Cool-down or claim-time works far better at preventing people from simply build-blocking structures to death, while allowing them to modify the structures if they care about them. And yeah, you could get around b-v once you have enough blocks to place down, but in the underground hanger example, where am I going to put those blocks so they look nice?

You do realize that my suggestion means that if you excavate the parts of the planet you want to build in/fill with shields (doomcube style :p) you can do that. You can make your underground hangar and simply add a couple layers back on top, (plus the planet will now have a positive b-v despite having the same or less blocks as it did on generation).

Stations are harder, I mean the current default stations are inherently unlike-able. But we will be getting better ones we might not want to instantly scrap. While on planets you can simply get salvage beams and prepare a building site by salvaging and rearranging the blocks to a flat area stations tend to have shields(in most cases) thus cannot be salvaged as easily. Again the point of this suggestion is to get salvager s more screen time and to stop the un-stabilizing effects of build blocking on the economy.

My problem with cool down/claim time is that it is completely and utterly not good enough as a deterrent. All it does is makes someone wait and sit on their hands and do nothing, if its 15 minutes to wait or 24 hours regardless of the time you are taking a player out of the game. Sure you can give them the cold shoulder and say "well you can just do something else", but that other thing may as well be "not play starmade".

I dislike any suggestion that puts an artificial timer on being able to do something, my idea means hard work (gathering the resources for a salvager, salvaging an area to be built in for something like an underground hangar, preparing the foundations for a planet based build) is rewarded while lazy game play (scrap all those stations I claimed half hour ago) or (1.build block 2. gather all those ores 3. craft thousands of expensive blocks 4. Profit (with minimal effort)). I hope that you see where I'm going with this.
(this last bit is kind of to everyone)
In the end I suggested my idea because I believed your ideas to be , to be frank, utter shit when it came to solving the issue at hand. I could think of no ways to fix something like that so I came up with an alternate solution. If you believe that being able to reduce a planet to molten core after an arbitrary amount of time is a good system then by all means, carry on. But I will still judge any suggestion by the requirements that it:
1. fixes the issue at hand
2. Encourages good game play
3. Makes sense.

Any timer based system in this case has failed all three. If you want to suggest a better system by all means do so. If you want to improve my suggestion by all means do so. If you want to circle jerk a mediocre idea like you've done thus far I ain't going to stop you feel free.

If I've missed anything feel free to hit me up with a pm.
EDIT: HOLY DAMN THAT GOT BIG FAST.

 

[jayman38]

My suggestion would be these two relatively simple changes.
1. Make building blocks extremely expensive.
2. Limit the maximum delete dimensions to the number of build blocks in a group. Yes, that's right. I'm actually suggesting mirroring the docking blocks behavior of using dimension with multiple building blocks in a group to influence the delete size. Maybe force the build block group to not have any holes. So if you want to be able to clean up a 3x3x3 cube of blocks with one click, you have to lay down 27 build blocks in a cubic group. 7 build blocks in a 3-D L-formation wouldn't do the trick.

You'll want to stick a hard-limit on the maximum dimensions, so that it would be worthless to put down more than 1000 build blocks on a server with a standard 10x10x10 delete limit, and so that you won't crash the server when removing more than 8000 blocks at once.

 

[Byamarro]

Bad side: Adding another byte to each block to track if a player placed it would increase system demands heavily.

Actually 1 bit, not whole byte (1 bit is 1/8 of byte). You need boolean value to contain information if block is generated naturally or placed by player.




What about combining 2 ideas?
Let's make buildblock able to delete naturally generated blocks but these blocks will permamently disappear after delete (You will not get them to inventory). Naturally generated blocks could have red corners in build mode to make player able to recognize them.

Buildblock's ability to serve as build tool will not be limited, but will be useless to harvest blocks.
What do You think about that guys? I personally think It's best solution yet appeared in that thread.

 

[NeonSturm]

Instead of "permanently disappear" which I already hate on killed blocks (where does all this mass go?) just store them not-accessible in an object-wide(=per planet/station) invisible storage.

The blocks may spawn again in an a smale-scale terrain generation process on the surface in some area/segment which the player chooses (increase natural beauty of edited planets) ready to get salvaged.


I think requiring a 2x2x2 BB array is good for deleting a 2x2x2 box of usually non-player block-IDs.

Many BBs may also increase this object-wide terrain storage so that few BBs let you have to shove your dirt from A to B rather than just let it disappear.