I found a very interesting conversation today

[Calhoun]

It's not useful when memes are thrown around

You've destroyed my lifes work Criss, I hope you're happy.

 

[Criss]

A proposal is sent to a community, or committee saying this is what we plan to do. The committee then rejects or accepts the proposal and gives specific feedback. They are not responsible for making it better.

Why are they not allowed to make it better? I don't see how the community can't help us craft a system that they would enjoy using. There are no rules against that. Furthermore, that is essentially what we did. We payed attention to the negative feedback. We didn't like the things players pointed out, and went back to the drawing board. I'd say 90% of that original proposal is completely different or reworked than what we have now. You'll get a chance to see soon.

I look at games like Empyrion, cranking out updates, blogs, and content.

I've not played Empyrion. They use Unity, and have developers that have an average of 10 years of game development experience. Those two bits of information tell me they can make the most of unity to crank out stuff. I just looked on their posts and a majority of their updates for the past two months have been bug fixing. There is an exception, they introduced dynamic weather and a terrain generator.

Now I can't speak to the gameplay of Empyrion. It might be a fun building simulator and nothing more, or it might have missions or things to take part in. Aside from power, we are focused on one big thing. Changing our universe so that it can accommodate gameplay. That is not an easy task. We are going through every thing, on a galactic scale and on a sector scale to ensure that things work as well as we can make them. How we want players to travel, warp gates, new star types, their effects, resource distribution. It's a lot of stuff.

 

[Lancake]

Does it not, though?

You already have a functional sector system, that I don't see changing very much.

You already have solar systems, that have asteroid belts.

You already have NPC factions.

I obviously don't know the plans (which, if so much stuff depends on them, should be pretty solid I'd think, so why so secretive?) but within the current universe structure, you can achieve

largely independent of the exact structure of the universe with smaller-scale generation changes that can apply no matter what,

just by creating ore density values for groups of systems as per my thread or any number of other proposals on the subject,

first with certain types of special structure or celestial body that can just as easily exist with the current universe, then you can augment it later on with a largely "cool"-oriented, more overarching universe update,

again independent of the exact universe structure,

yet again independent of the universe structure,

with space-based assets for now and then add the ground/planet component later, if there is one, after the planet/universe changes,

once again, independent of the universe structure, if designed properly. It would only need a rebalance at the very most when the universe becomes different.

which should largely be independent of the universe structure as well, because missions would have objective entities, objective sectors, and objective systems, and objective factions, even... but not objective voids or nebulae as separate things, I'd imagine. That'd be silly; those things should just be treated as groups of systems/sectors with special flags on them (which we already have support for, I think). What's the difference between a mission to pick up High Priestess Esra ym Kuf of Odlid from the celestial temple floating in a random system because we don't have cool things in space yet, and picking her up from a sector above a ringed gas giant?

That said, I look forward to universe improvements, and if that's what Schine deems to be the most important thing to work on, then so be it. I'm only... curious.

When we're talking about the "current universe", we're talking about the current one where shops are everywhere and you only need to fly 1 minute in one direction to encounter 5 more planets/stars and stations that everything on it that you need. The current universe needs a lot of fine tuning to make it support the vision we're going for. Many of the current game mechanics are affected by how the universe is constructed and how fast you can travel from point A to B.

- Trading can't reach its full potential if there is an uncontrollable source of near infinite resources out there within reach
- Exploring is meaningless if every system already has everything in it, there's also nothing out there that will make you think twice before you go out and explore a certain system.
- NPC Factions don't have that much of a purpose yet and the universe needs restructuring to make it happen.
- ...

We're not going to take the galaxy, throw it in a blender and praise it as the new "Universe" update. We're going to merge the universe generation and our current game mechanics together so that everything going from exploration, combat, and trading feels like a natural extension to the game.

Sure, some things can be fixed by "tweaking resource distribution" but that's far from an easy feat. In the current procedural galaxy, we have little control over it.
A system either has resources or has none.
If it has resources, it has all of them properly distributed according to temperature. That's pretty much all we currently have and it's not enough to make sure that every procedural galaxy out there has the resource distribution we're going for.
With a good enough system, you could allow for different galaxy shapes that would play out differently yet still work just fine without having to tweak values all over again.

 

[Raisinbat]

The devs just can't win.

You are correct.

Pottery.

 

[JinM]

There have been a lot of big promises from Starmade and few have been fulfilled even minimally. I look at games like Empyrion, cranking out updates, blogs, and content. It seem like projects like those are going somewhere. Starmade just seems like its going in circles.

You know Empyrion isn't really playable atm. as well. There are so many bugs that can ruin your progress so easily. I don't want to say Empyrion is bad, I wouldn't play it if I didn't like it, but: It's not finished and didn't jet reach to the promisse, namedly being a fun game for more than 10 hours too.

You know I can play Starmade for days and it doesn't get boring. Empyrion is nice to play for like 3 days two hours each and then I am bored.

I just want to rant now: I started this game again up after the experimatal alpha 6.08 was released. Sounded really nice...Atmosphere, Traders that work, NPCs walking around.

You know what actually works atm. in Empyrion? NOTHING
(rant incoming)
Bugs
I started a survival and now let me count you all the bugs and things that didn't work when I tried to play this son of a bitch:
- Having a pc-crash while I was ingame broke the savegame of 6 hours survival progression: I was not able to retrieve the savegame and I didn't know jet, that I would be better of making a backup before each gaming session. -> started a new game the first time!
- Driving motorbike on planet, then leaving the vehicle, vehicle gets stuck in an up down jumpy thing, I try to enter it: get trown 1km away and die from the fall impact. Second survival start and progress of 3 hours: ruined, because I was not able to regain the lost inventory and wasn't able to respawn at my home. -> started a new game the second time, as it didn't make so much of a difference and as soon as my survival story-line gets interupted by such a bug it doesn't feel right anymore for me. It's like the narration gets broken and I need to watch another movie.
- Having placed an surivival factory (constructor) on the ground-grid, and then accidentally placing another normal constructor on top of it on the house-grid: the normal constructor totally overlaps the survival constructor and I was not able to demolish it as I didn't had the tool to do so allready (early game progress). As there were all my items in the survival constructor, the entire progress of two hours survival start just vanished and were unaccessible. I now have to look up some cheats to give me an item that deconstructs me that wrong placed normal constructor. But having to use cheats totally breaks the immersion.
- There are other bugs too, many guys complained about other bugs that I don't list here, when I played multiplayer in alpha 4, I just named the ones I experienced in alpha 6: solo...

Half implemented gameplay
Trading? No trading doesn't work atm, its just a placeholder.
PVE? Yes it works, but gets boring after you shoot down the 100th alien enemy and fended of the 5th troop transporter. Its exiting for 2 hours and then its all the same.
Exploring? Works. You have like 5 to 10 hours but then you know all the blueprints and its all the same stuff again.
Survival? Lol. Yes it is cool, but its not that big of a challenge.
Multiplayer? Because of the blueprint-workshop many stuff you see is all the same: 80% are the premade devs-blueprints, and 20% are the workshops actual top listed ships or houses. Flying around isn't like in other sandbox games where you are happy to look at the cool stuff people build. 90% of the players there are too unexperienced to build anything on their own - and Empyrion is the Duplo version of Lego allready. I thought that bigger blocks makes it easy for people to build their own house in a short time: they don't want to. Whats the use of planets when the houses the players build there are all the same workshop of stock stuff? =( And the same goes for the ships...
PVP? Its not that great, its just unbalanced and arcade like. Bigger ships wins 100%. Zero ship diversity or challenge in building. You can make it pretty thats it.

Ok the game is still fun, but please reconsider, if the devs progression is comparable with Starmade. You just named the pretty flowers that Empyrion shows to the world but don't recognise the bigger picture when you tried to judge it. It's not bad. It is fun. But not for a long time and not in a complex matter like Starmade allready is.

 

[Drakkart]

No, but that was the whole point of the proposal no? We were sure we didn't think of everything, and after 40+ pages of thread, we got enough information to revise the system. Ed is right, most of the initial negative criticism did little to help us. It's not useful when memes are thrown around, or new terms like "chandelier ships" are tossed around when it's not explained at all.

You tossed out a suggestion for a new system that barely left brainstorming phase and then you wonder about it being torn to pieces? The chandelier concept was a direct response on how to min max the proposed system. I am not saying i liked it, nor did i fully grasp, why it would be the only "valid" min-max solution to the proposed - still very vague - system, as it was claimed. BUT it showed two things clearly
- No matter what system you guys are going to put into place, none but the most boring and simple will manage to please the entire crowds wishes. Those able to understand and exploit mechanics will find ways to get an advantage.
-- The "skillful" builders wish for a system, that rewards thought and preparation put into a build, the desired reward is a more effective performing ship. More agile and more powerful than just a big load of bricks smashed together, being able to overpower an even bigger enemy just by a better more effective build.
-- The roleplayers in that thread demanded a system that would make their ships as "valid" as any other build style
- And no matter how hard you try you can not please the entire crowd.

Now if i may make a suggestion.

Take the essence of what was suggested and how it was judged. There were a few good points made but still you need to put them together into a system that elegantly delivers.
To make it perform you had a great mechanic in the previous system instead of linear growth you had curves.
How about
- an exponential growing reactor providing power with growing size but also exponentially growing (the new introduced concept of) heat.
- i'd personally also would add heatproduction to systems using the power.
- Systems and reactors also loose their ability to function properly exponetially with rising heat.
- and a system to route heat away and disperse it getting rid of it. (Personally for realism purposes, i'd like these blocks to be the more effective the more sides have no blocks around them and eventually an algorythm checking if the non filled blocks are not enclosed in the ship. So as in real life heatsinks are put below the hull/armor so they can disperse heat into the void of space to be effective. But already the, the more nonfilled blocks around aspect should provide enough complexity to allow for a large variety of "valid" builds.

you are the developers you need to figure out the curves, the numbers, and how it plays out, to find the right balance and then when this has been done, you need to test and tweak it before you present it to the playerbase again. Then let them rage for a week. then open a discussion thread and listen. Then tweak it again. But make sure you just need to tweak the numbers for the system in itself allows for a big variety of balance, so YOU NEED TO TEST THIS IN ADVANCE.

GL i do not envy you of this task. But do it right and starmade has the chance to advance to new glory.

 

[StormWing0]

Yep create a side branch solely for testing random ideas and proposals and lets the idiots rage over random things. This would mean making it easier to change between branches though. >.>

Also keep in mind some people are stubborn fools that don't want change so as harsh as this is you kinda have to break out the bulldozer and run them over. <.<

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Empyrion is a piece of crap in a fancy package. (which stands for most Unity games in my honest opinion) People don't want to build their own stuff in there because it doesn't have HALF the building tools Starmade has. The prefabricated blocks and system elements make it easy - too easy - to build stuff, but even then, they are also easy to kill (Empyrion is still about coring) - and the physical simulation is... wait, is there such a thing? Hardly. A small example: you clip through the same type of entity. (so for example, a capital vessel can collide with a small vessel or a base or a planet but not with another CV, clips straight through that.)

However, it did a few things right. It has proper planetside gameplay, with - although prefabricated - various structures generating on planets with loot included, survival elements, resource bottlenecks that encourage exploration and player interaction (you actually have to look hard for certain resources, you don't have everything from the start) and it has a proper music and sound engine which matters a LOT in terms of immersion.
(and I'm glad Schine finally got to working on that for Starmade too)

 

[Raisinbat]

- and a system to route heat away and disperse it getting rid of it. (Personally for realism purposes, i'd like these blocks to be the more effective the more sides have no blocks around them and eventually an algorythm checking if the non filled blocks are not enclosed in the ship. So as in real life heatsinks are put below the hull/armor so they can disperse heat into the void of space to be effective. But already the, the more nonfilled blocks around aspect should provide enough complexity to allow for a large variety of "valid" builds.

"Exposed blocks" are extremely expensive to check for in code, but i came up with an alternate solution to it: repurpose damage pulses (they'll NEVER work in combat anyway) as heat vents and let them destroy your own ship. You can fire them inside your ship but they'll just create a massive hole in it. You can also make them intentional weakspots that take extra damage when hit to encourage using rail doors to protect them, then open when you vent, that would create an interesting dynamic, and if you absolutely MUST use damage pulses offensively, they'd still work.

 

[Serene-Switch]

Noticed this video myself about a week ago. I personally regard StarMade very highly, and I do so due to its incredible creative potential. StarMade is not the first space combat sim and it won't be the last however, what makes StarMade truly unique is that the experience it provides is created by and limited by its communities imagination. StarMade is above all a sandbox game, to build if only for the sake of building is the motivation of many players and, as an incomplete game, mechanics for purposes other than this are a privilege at this point.

For those who are not satisfied simply building I would suggest exploring and engaging the environment that is currently in place. For those who have done all there is to do in their own galaxy I suggest going online and expanding into someone else's. Boredom with the current PVP mechanics of the game seems an unacceptable excuse unless one can claim they have both fought and defeated every faction and player on the dock. And if all else fails, specialize. Between Aesthetic Building, Complex Logic Systems, RP and Faction Building, and PVP, I see no reason anyone should be bored unless they can pull out their master builder AND logic master badges.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Noticed this video myself about a week ago. I personally regard StarMade very highly, and I do so due to its incredible creative potential. StarMade is not the first space combat sim and it won't be the last however, what makes StarMade truly unique is that the experience it provides is created by and limited by its communities imagination. StarMade is above all a sandbox game, to build if only for the sake of building is the motivation of many players and, as an incomplete game, mechanics for purposes other than this are a privilege at this point.

For those who are not satisfied simply building I would suggest exploring and engaging the environment that is currently in place. For those who have done all there is to do in their own galaxy I suggest going online and expanding into someone else's. Boredom with the current PVP mechanics of the game seems an unacceptable excuse unless one can claim they have both fought and defeated every faction and player on the dock. And if all else fails, specialize. Between Aesthetic Building, Complex Logic Systems, RP and Faction Building, and PVP, I see no reason anyone should be bored unless they can pull out their master builder AND logic master badges.

Exploring would be great if it was worth doing. Currently, you don't need to explore because chances are, you get the exact same stuff in the next galaxy as in the next system. Same stations, same planets, same asteroids, same resources.

 

[Comradecolonel]

Now I can't speak to the gameplay of Empyrion. It might be a fun building simulator and nothing more, or it might have missions or things to take part in. Aside from power, we are focused on one big thing. Changing our universe so that it can accommodate gameplay. That is not an easy task. We are going through every thing, on a galactic scale and on a sector scale to ensure that things work as well as we can make them. How we want players to travel, warp gates, new star types, their effects, resource distribution. It's a lot of stuff.

We're not going to take the galaxy, throw it in a blender and praise it as the new "Universe" update. We're going to merge the universe generation and our current game mechanics together so that everything going from exploration, combat, and trading feels like a natural extension to the game.

I get that isn't easy. Its not even just a matter of the work to be done. You guys have to figure out how it is all going to work. There is no answer key for you guys like there are for a lot of other development teams. I do have a lot of respect for the Starmade team for going through the pain to bring us a truly innovative game/engine. There is literally nothing like Starmade right now. However, you guys as well as me know that talk is cheap. If you guys can't reach your goals in a reasonable time I'd rather do other things with my time. I'm never going to write off Starmade as a game, but I see no point in building useless toys atm.

You know Empyrion isn't really playable atm. as well. There are so many bugs that can ruin your progress so easily. I don't want to say Empyrion is bad, I wouldn't play it if I didn't like it, but: It's not finished and didn't jet reach to the promisse, namedly being a fun game for more than 10 hours too.

Empyrion is perfectly playable for me. For me it has provided over a 100 hours of fun. It is still a long way from being done though.

You know I can play Starmade for days and it doesn't get boring. Empyrion is nice to play for like 3 days two hours each and then I am bored.

How would you define playing though? For me playing Starmade is pretty much building things. I don't really play it as a game. In empyrion I'm actually loading my save and feeling a sense of progress. I can actually do gameplay things and they don't feel broken.

Half implemented gameplay
Trading? No trading doesn't work atm, its just a placeholder.
PVE? Yes it works, but gets boring after you shoot down the 100th alien enemy and fended of the 5th troop transporter. Its exiting for 2 hours and then its all the same.
Exploring? Works. You have like 5 to 10 hours but then you know all the blueprints and its all the same stuff again.
Survival? Lol. Yes it is cool, but its not that big of a challenge.
Multiplayer? Because of the blueprint-workshop many stuff you see is all the same: 80% are the premade devs-blueprints, and 20% are the workshops actual top listed ships or houses. Flying around isn't like in other sandbox games where you are happy to look at the cool stuff people build. 90% of the players there are too unexperienced to build anything on their own - and Empyrion is the Duplo version of Lego allready. I thought that bigger blocks makes it easy for people to build their own house in a short time: they don't want to. Whats the use of planets when the houses the players build there are all the same workshop of stock stuff? =( And the same goes for the ships...
PVP? Its not that great, its just unbalanced and arcade like. Bigger ships wins 100%. Zero ship diversity or challenge in building. You can make it pretty thats it.

Ok the game is still fun, but please reconsider, if the devs progression is comparable with Starmade. You just named the pretty flowers that Empyrion shows to the world but don't recognise the bigger picture when you tried to judge it. It's not bad. It is fun. But not for a long time and not in a complex matter like Starmade allready is.

All of this is your opinion though. I bring up how Empyrion development actually has a sense of progression to it, and now everyone is trying to tell me how Empyrion isn't even a decent game. The point of the matter is that I've never really felt a sense of confusion with that game like I have here. This isn't about Empyrion, it's about the development process. Starmade has LITERALLY gone in circles for quite a bit of its lifetime. I get that it is a natural occurrence given the nature of Starmade, but it's not easy to watch. I have been watching and somewhat involved in the development of hundreds of mods/games over the years. I don't make the comparison between Starmade and Empyrions dev cycle lightly. I see one game slowly accomplishing its goals and another that struggling to.

Empyrion is a piece of crap in a fancy package. (which stands for most Unity games in my honest opinion) People don't want to build their own stuff in there because it doesn't have HALF the building tools Starmade has. The prefabricated blocks and system elements make it easy - too easy - to build stuff, but even then, they are also easy to kill

I don't like how it seems popular to bash Unity these days. It has some limitations but is still a very powerful tool. Lots of major companies (Sony, Nintendo, Blizzard) have already used the tools to make some pretty cool stuff. Could you make Starmade in Unity? No, but that doesn't mean its a bad engine.

I agree that building capital ships and the like is not as fun in Empyrion but that isn't why I play it.

For those who are not satisfied simply building I would suggest exploring and engaging the environment that is currently in place. For those who have done all there is to do in their own galaxy I suggest going online and expanding into someone else's. Boredom with the current PVP mechanics of the game seems an unacceptable excuse unless one can claim they have both fought and defeated every faction and player on the dock. And if all else fails, specialize. Between Aesthetic Building, Complex Logic Systems, RP and Faction Building, and PVP, I see no reason anyone should be bored unless they can pull out their master builder AND logic master badges.

There is next to nothing to do in the universe. Visit the same 5 stations over and over? I'm good. Kill the same pirate for the millionth time? I'm good. Go online and start war with a major faction so I have something to do? I'M GOOD. I guess all that is left for me to do is to fight every ship on the dock, oh wait all the ones I haven't fought are weak as hell. Trust me I have tried A LOT to keep myself entertained. Most of the people I met that played when I first got it have all stopped playing. I literally mean EVERYONE. I have a large number of projects I'd love to get to but I'm tired of building things only to pretend to play with them. I did that as a kid and trust me it gets boring pretty fast.

Also some of us don't share our tech with the entire community. You shouldn't judge someones experience in Starmade based on the badges they have on the dock.

 

[Raisinbat]

For those who are not satisfied simply building I would suggest exploring and engaging the environment that is currently in place. For those who have done all there is to do in their own galaxy I suggest going online and expanding into someone else's. Boredom with the current PVP mechanics of the game seems an unacceptable excuse unless one can claim they have both fought and defeated every faction and player on the dock. And if all else fails, specialize. Between Aesthetic Building, Complex Logic Systems, RP and Faction Building, and PVP, I see no reason anyone should be bored unless they can pull out their master builder AND logic master badges.

If you're happy doing nothing but drawing ships, why aren't you just using a 3D modelling tool instead?

You don't see what we're upset about so we can just shut up?

There is nothing to do in ANY galaxy; you're content with an art gallery, good for you, anyone expecting a game has nothing in starmade.

 

[Scypio]

I see no reason anyone should be bored unless they can pull out their master builder AND logic master badges

If you judge someone by his badges i pity you.

 

[JinM]

All of this is your opinion though. I bring up how Empyrion development actually has a sense of progression to it, and now everyone is trying to tell me how Empyrion isn't even a decent game. The point of the matter is that I've never really felt a sense of confusion with that game like I have here. This isn't about Empyrion, it's about the development process. Starmade has LITERALLY gone in circles for quite a bit of its lifetime. I get that it is a natural occurrence given the nature of Starmade, but it's not easy to watch. I have been watching and somewhat involved in the development of hundreds of mods/games over the years. I don't make the comparison between Starmade and Empyrions dev cycle lightly. I see one game slowly accomplishing its goals and another that struggling to.

Yeah I agree that this waiting is kinda frustrating. Patience is needed.

Even though I ranted very much, I really don't want to say that Empyrion is a bad game. Forgive me that ranting, I lost like 10 hours of survival progression due to sloppy bugs that really broke it for me.

I don't have 100 hours in Emp, but lets see, I open up steam: 97 hours minus 20% afking=80 hours. Starmade: 650 hours minus 30% afking = 400 hours (I often alt tab into other games and build in between queueing up for matchmaking). Now keep in mind, that I played the majority of 70 hours in alpha 4 and earlier. And from that 70 hours I spent like 30 hours trying out multiplayer. When I say Empyrion offers me nothing, then I mean I felt not really satisfied with the progression I made in this game. I engineered 3 blueprints that are usefull, the rest is all about grinding this survival thats just complex on the surface, and trying to find some fun on different servers (and it was not that much of a fun time for me in multiplayer).

Now my point is: If we want to compare progression of the 2 games, we should take into account what those 2 games try to accomplish in the long run and how they perform measured on their own capabilities and individual accomplishments.

Empyrion feels like it has more to offer than Starmade (and this I have to deny just looking at the hours I played booth). And I agree it has fleshed out gameplay. But Emp aims for like 20% of the scope that Starmade aims at. So ofcourse it is easier to pump out that many features. But the effort those features took to code...Well lets say it like that: Empyrion needed (imaginary numbers) 1000 hours to code 10 gameplay elements. Those got distributes onto a team of 10 programmers. Starmade needed also 1000 hours - but only to code 3 gameplay elements, because here we have a way more complex game and features that need to work on a way bigger scope. And those 1000 hours also only get distributed onto a smaller dev team.

So you observed the surface progression totally correct. But what is it, what you want in the end from your space sandbox? =)

There is next to nothing to do in the universe. Visit the same 5 stations over and over? I'm good. Kill the same pirate for the millionth time? I'm good. Go online and start war with a major faction so I have something to do? I'M GOOD. I guess all that is left for me to do is to fight every ship on the dock, oh wait all the ones I haven't fought are weak as hell. Trust me I have tried A LOT to keep myself entertained. Most of the people I met that played when I first got it have all stopped playing. I literally mean EVERYONE. I have a large number of projects I'd love to get to but I'm tired of building things only to pretend to play with them. I did that as a kid and trust me it gets boring pretty fast.

Also some of us don't share our tech with the entire community. You shouldn't judge someones experience in Starmade based on the badges they have on the dock.

Starmade has its big strength in building and being creative. Sadly there is not many much other to do atm. We could start roleplaying or do pvp with special rules (like no shields or a limited number of weapon modules compared to the overall block/mass count)... But what are your play hours from booth games? Do you think you can play Empyrion, that costs 20 Euro atm, longer than Starmade that only costs 15 Euro (or nothing)?

 

[Neon_42]

Why are they not allowed to make it better? I don't see how the community can't help us craft a system that they would enjoy using. There are no rules against that. Furthermore, that is essentially what we did. We payed attention to the negative feedback. We didn't like the things players pointed out, and went back to the drawing board. I'd say 90% of that original proposal is completely different or reworked than what we have now. You'll get a chance to see soon.

Try not to over-interpret what I said. Nowhere did I say they are not allowed. I said " a proposal does not ask for others to 'fix it'" and " They are not responsible for making it better". The reason for this is if you take an idea from someone you have to give them credit. I'll use another example from astrophysics here: in published papers people are credited by adding authors to papers or by acknowledging contributions in the credits or acknowledgements, otherwise you can get slammed for plagiarism. It sounds like you guys are doing mostly the right things about the reaction to your proposal though. Though saying that most of it wasn't helpful doesn't make your community feel like they are helping (even if they arn't). It's better to say nothing at all if you want to maintain players.

 

[Criss]

Though saying that most of it wasn't helpful

No. It was immensely helpful. I was pointing out some specific responses though that while, meant as criticism, are not truly constructive in my eyes.

 

[Neon_42]

No. It was immensely helpful. I was pointing out some specific responses though that while, meant as criticism, are not truly constructive in my eyes.

My apologies. Saying that most of the feedback "meming" "knee-jerk" reactions are not helpful, is not good community management on your part. See the Extra Credits episode I posted. Some people may not be able to put their problems into exact words.

 

[JinM]

My apologies. Saying that most of the feedback "meming" "knee-jerk" reactions are not helpful, is not good community management on your part. See the Extra Credits episode I posted. Some people may not be able to put their problems into exact words.

Doesn't it become a kindergarden for the meme posters like that - if you act yourself like the world explaining parent all the time?

 

[Comradecolonel]

I engineered 3 blueprints that are usefull, the rest is all about grinding this survival thats just complex on the surface, and trying to find some fun on different servers (and it was not that much of a fun time for me in multiplayer).

I don't really play empyrion to build. I build as a means to accomplish things within with game. I build a base so I have a place to defend and sustain myself. I build a vessel to scout out new locations and resources. I build a tank or starfighter to attack postions and gain loot. I NEED to do these things within the game and that is why I play Empyrion. In Starmade I don't really play I just build in the hopes I can use things as I imagine.

Empyrion feels like it has more to offer than Starmade (and this I have to deny just looking at the hours I played booth). And I agree it has fleshed out gameplay. But Emp aims for like 20% of the scope that Starmade aims at. So ofcourse it is easier to pump out that many features. But the effort those features took to code...Well lets say it like that: Empyrion needed (imaginary numbers) 1000 hours to code 10 gameplay elements. Those got distributes onto a team of 10 programmers. Starmade needed also 1000 hours - but only to code 3 gameplay elements, because here we have a way more complex game and features that need to work on a way bigger scope. And those 1000 hours also only get distributed onto a smaller dev team.

So you observed the surface progression totally correct. But what is it, what you want in the end from your space sandbox? =)

I don't really care which game is more complex, I care about which game provides more gameplay. I also care which one seems more capable of reaching its goals. In both those regards Empyrion is better to me right now. Do I think Starmade has lot of potential? Of course I do and I sincerely hope it does reach its goals. I'm just uncertain at this point.

Starmade has its big strength in building and being creative. Sadly there is not many much other to do atm. We could start roleplaying or do pvp with special rules (like no shields or a limited number of weapon modules compared to the overall block/mass count)... But what are your play hours from booth games? Do you think you can play Empyrion, that costs 20 Euro atm, longer than Starmade that only costs 15 Euro (or nothing)?

It's not just that the world has little to do, many mechanics are also not fully functional/broken. Weapon balance is non-existent, because they've been seemingly designed without practical use in mind. Ships stats are controlled by a number of size dependent restrictions(power,turning) that invite most people to work their hardest to overcome. Many systems like scanners, cloaker, and others have downright silly mechanics. As far as the actual gameplay mechanics I feel there is a lot to be done. Empyrion might have some limitations, but the tradeoff is I have a game to play. I can still do quite a bit in that game and within a year or two it'll have a pretty dynamic universe.

I don't need anything big and impressive to enjoy Starmade at this point. I just need interesting mechanics. There's nothing to do because most of it gets pretty boring after a day or two. The build system is great and so is the continuous universe part of the game engine. Other than that Starmade is lacking.