How to properly build a docking shield module.

[GRHayes]

I decided to put this on here because I noticed a number of people stating they aren't getting the efficiency out of them they should.

I'll describe the testing I did to ensure these values I started off with a beam of 1 and worked up each time figuring out what the minimal amount is to get the beam to fire its full burst.

A shield supply beam uses 1500 shields to produce 1200 shield transfer. That is 80% efficiency which was the goal. The fact is you won't get 80% efficiency however you will get better than standard recharge under combat. Lets face it it is under combat when shields count most. The recharge rate then is where it makes the difference. Honestly when not in combat shields don't do a lot.

A beam is 2 seconds long not 2.5 or 1.5.

I will explain the format of what I will post next with the first example:
2 bm = 274 chargers + 14 capacitors for a transfer rater of 2400 total or 1200 a second.

That means a beam of length 2 can transfer 2400 it however cost 1500 a second which is why you need 274 shield chargers to reach 1500 second. The 14 capacitors was derived at from testing to determine the minimal amount it took to get the full amount out beam transfer with the least amount of capacitance.

The least amount of capacitance is important in it determines how fast the system recharges and bounces back.
It is also important because this will be a docked module and as long as what it is docked to has greater than 50% of its shields it will end up drawing from what you are providing shields to. There is a bit of a parasitic effect between the host and docked module. The host helping provide shields reduces the down time from full shields thus increasing the efficiency of the docked module.

2 bm = 274 chargers + 14 capacitors for a recharge rate of 2400 per beam or 1200/sec
3 bm = 410 chargers + 30 capacitors for a recharge rate of 3600 per beam or 1800/sec
4 bm = 546 chargers + 38 capacitors for a recharge rate of 4800 per beam or 2400/sec
5 bm = 682 chargers + 51 capacitors for a recharge rate of 6000 per beam of 3000/sec
6 bm = 819 chargers + 63 capacitors for a recharge rate of 7200 per beam or 3600/sec

beams as mentioned above are 2 seconds in length
my timer setup
A = activator
T = timer
N = Nor
ATTTTN -> ATTTTN -> back to first A
Beams are triggered off of Activators

This doesn't include power requirements. If you don't provide enough power your modules will end up in a power outage mode.

The image below is where I tested identical systems other than where one is docked and one is connected directly. Just the bottom two images.

On that setup alone which isn't the most efficient I built. The directly powered shield system dropped to 65.1% of shields in 1 minute while under combat. The docked version of it only drops to 87.1% in a minute.

In short that means the docked system last 3 times longer. At least until the primary system drops below 50%. Then the parasitic effect drops off and shields are not fed back to the docked module.
What this means is the upper 50% of your shields can last a lot longer. How you balance that out with direct shielding and ion effect and so on is up to you. Small ships really won't be able to take a great deal of advantage of this. Even a 1 bm system is still going to have near 200 blocks

Any hope this helps some of you. This should at least get you started on what it takes to build them and give an example of what is needed.

 

[Panpiper]

This is very interesting. My own solitary attempt to build a docked shield regenerator didn't come close to this efficiency. I reasoned that given the extra mass relative to the shield supply I was getting, it was not worth it. With your return however, 80% of the regeneration of regular regenerators is certainly worth it given that it will not suffer from any degradation lower than that as the shield gets lower.

I am perhaps not quite following the import of the mothership feeding shields back into the depleted shield capacitors of the docked ship. I am not sure how that could work, as I do not believe that mother ships actually give shields to docked entities but rather docked entities pass damage on. I could easily be wrong about that however.

Where I get very confused is this insistence people have in asserting that in combat shield regeneration is on the order of 5-10% of the non-combat shield regeneration. That would mean that a shield regeneration module on a ship would in combat provide typically 'less' than half a shield point per second. I cannot fathom that that could be the intent of the designers. It also bears absolutely no semblance to my own experience in combat. I've fought countless engagements versus fleets of much beefed up pirates using medium sized ships (100K blocks) and I've had no issues with keeping a shield up the whole time in combat, and these are serious pirates, with alpha strikes of a million and DPSs of 20-40K each.

I've written up my issues elsewhere and would appreciate feedback.

 

[Dvaren]

I decided to put this on here because I noticed a number of people stating they aren't getting the efficiency out of them they should.

I'll describe the testing I did to ensure these values I started off with a beam of 1 and worked up each time figuring out what the minimal amount is to get the beam to fire its full burst.

A shield supply beam uses 1500 shields to produce 1200 shield transfer. That is 80% efficiency which was the goal. The fact is you won't get 80% efficiency however you will get better than standard recharge under combat. Lets face it it is under combat when shields count most. The recharge rate then is where it makes the difference. Honestly when not in combat shields don't do a lot.

A beam is 2 seconds long not 2.5 or 1.5.

I will explain the format of what I will post next with the first example:
2 bm = 274 chargers + 14 capacitors for a transfer rater of 2400 total or 1200 a second.

That means a beam of length 2 can transfer 2400 it however cost 1500 a second which is why you need 274 shield chargers to reach 1500 second. The 14 capacitors was derived at from testing to determine the minimal amount it took to get the full amount out beam transfer with the least amount of capacitance.

The least amount of capacitance is important in it determines how fast the system recharges and bounces back.
It is also important because this will be a docked module and as long as what it is docked to has greater than 50% of its shields it will end up drawing from what you are providing shields to. There is a bit of a parasitic effect between the host and docked module. The host helping provide shields reduces the down time from full shields thus increasing the efficiency of the docked module.

2 bm = 274 chargers + 14 capacitors for a recharge rate of 2400 per beam or 1200/sec
3 bm = 410 chargers + 30 capacitors for a recharge rate of 3600 per beam or 1800/sec
4 bm = 546 chargers + 38 capacitors for a recharge rate of 4800 per beam or 2400/sec
5 bm = 682 chargers + 51 capacitors for a recharge rate of 6000 per beam of 3000/sec
6 bm = 819 chargers + 63 capacitors for a recharge rate of 7200 per beam or 3600/sec

beams as mentioned above are 2 seconds in length
my timer setup
A = activator
T = timer
N = Nor
ATTTTN -> ATTTTN -> back to first A
Beams are triggered off of Activators

This doesn't include power requirements. If you don't provide enough power your modules will end up in a power outage mode.

The image below is where I tested identical systems other than where one is docked and one is connected directly. Just the bottom two images.

On that setup alone which isn't the most efficient I built. The directly powered shield system dropped to 65.1% of shields in 1 minute while under combat. The docked version of it only drops to 87.1% in a minute.

In short that means the docked system last 3 times longer. At least until the primary system drops below 50%. Then the parasitic effect drops off and shields are not fed back to the docked module.
What this means is the upper 50% of your shields can last a lot longer. How you balance that out with direct shielding and ion effect and so on is up to you. Small ships really won't be able to take a great deal of advantage of this. Even a 1 bm system is still going to have near 200 blocks

Any hope this helps some of you. This should at least get you started on what it takes to build them and give an example of what is needed.

I created your setup, exactly as specified: (274 rechargers and 14 capacitors with alternating 2 x beam modules @ 2 second delay.

I then had it charge a mothership with empty shield capacitors. The result was this: 9700 charged in 60 seconds.

I then removed the motherships capacitors and put them back on so they would be empty. I copy and pasted the 274 rechargers directly onto the mothership and timed the result while under fire from an extremely small external gun (single cannon on a 8 second delay to stop full recharge). The result? 63 seconds to recharge 9700. Within the human margin of error...exactly the same.

 

[GRHayes]

Sounds like you didn't have it docked to the mother ship?
That you just fired at it?
If so you aren't getting the benefit of being docked.
Take a look at the bottom two in my pictures. The two ships to the right are identical just one is directly connect the other is docked.
The top one directly connect using the same weapons against its shields dropped 3 times faster.

I tested that against
shield drain 2 beams 1150 each
8 cannon + 8cannon
8 cannon + 8 cannon + 8 ion

granted I could go and test every single weapon and variant of it but to me the results on those 3 was enough.

And you are dead right when it is sitting their just firing it drains its charged system and it drops it not only down to 8% even lower than the 10%.

That is why I didn't just use one method of testing this. I didn't just fire at a target and see what it can supply.

 

[Dvaren]

Sounds like you didn't have it docked to the mother ship?
That you just fired at it?
If so you aren't getting the benefit of being docked.
Take a look at the bottom two in my pictures. The two ships to the right are identical just one is directly connect the other is docked.
The top one directly connect using the same weapons against its shields dropped 3 times faster.

I tested that against
shield drain 2 beams 1150 each
8 cannon + 8cannon
8 cannon + 8 cannon + 8 ion

granted I could go and test every single weapon and variant of it but to me the results on those 3 was enough.

And you are dead right when it is sitting their just firing it drains its charged system and it drops it not only down to 8% even lower than the 10%.

That is why I didn't just use one method of testing this. I didn't just fire at a target and see what it can supply.

Nope...it's docked!

 

[GRHayes]

Hmmm. I got to wonder why the difference then?

Now I am curious. As to why that is happening. We should be able to expect fairly similar results.
Well unless some how system lag or something is making the difference.

Any chance you downloaded that module I supplied and tested on it also?

That would suck to go onto someone else's server and build it there and then get a so sorry this don't work.
Not to mention sure everyone else would like the benefit as well.

Wondering something. When you watch it over time do you see your primary shields get drained and the small caps on your module jump in charge at the same time? That's what I call the parasitic effect. It appears to be shield transfer from the host system to the docked module.

If not then maybe what I am seeing is a bug or maybe the bug is you aren't seeing it.

Would be nice if they published all this type of stuff. So we actually have a clue what the game Mechanics really are.

They did good on the stuff they published on the shield formulas but it falls short.
They do great to a point but look at the published power formula it is no ways near accurate.
Then there are changes that go on like you used to be able to charge energy when docked at a station. But now that some how could be abused even though you can still charge someone with a beam system from a station? Just don't get that.

 

[Dvaren]

Hmmm. I got to wonder why the difference then?

Now I am curious. As to why that is happening. We should be able to expect fairly similar results.
Well unless some how system lag or something is making the difference.

Any chance you downloaded that module I supplied and tested on it also?

That would suck to go onto someone else's server and build it there and then get a so sorry this don't work.
Not to mention sure everyone else would like the benefit as well.

Wondering something. When you watch it over time do you see your primary shields get drained and the small caps on your module jump in charge at the same time? That's what I call the parasitic effect. It appears to be shield transfer from the host system to the docked module.

If not then maybe what I am seeing is a bug or maybe the bug is you aren't seeing it.

Would be nice if they published all this type of stuff. So we actually have a clue what the game Mechanics really are.

They did good on the stuff they published on the shield formulas but it falls short.
They do great to a point but look at the published power formula it is no ways near accurate.
Then there are changes that go on like you used to be able to charge energy when docked at a station. But now that some how could be abused even though you can still charge someone with a beam system from a station? Just don't get that.

I did not test your module but I did recreate it exactly as you specified and tested it in a multitude of different ways. I also am fairly sure that shields are not transferred from a mothership to its docked entities. I tested this myself last night. I do not know what you are seeing on your end, but it likely is not a transfer.

Also, there is already a validated bug report on the bug tracker referring to the issue of shield supply beams triggering an in combat recharge rate. Apparently, the devs are already aware of this issue, and if it is fixed in the future we will all have working shield supply modules =)

 

[Lecic]

Shield supply beam triggering combat recharge was intentional. They did not when they were originally added.

 

[Daro_Khan]

what he saying is that the motherships protects all docked entities with ITS shields till 50% of its shields are gone.

While thasts happening depending where your docked shield gen is located it can take fire and be destroyed. But If your above 50% killing a docked reactor externally it will last a long time when your mothership shields are 50% or lower. The external reactor will take fire and use its own shields up defending itself. and get into *under combat recharge* Which means its dead in the water at this point

Docked shield transfer is useful WHEN In combat only AND for keeping your shields up higher then 50% AND adding the mother ship with a docked shield transfers that is not suffering under combat shield Regen pen.

Having the shield transfers beam put its target in *under fire mode* Is not really an issue Or a bug. simple setup logic to turn it on when you entry battle, and when out of battle leave it off and use your ships own recharge speed.

I myself are making a 1 mill Transfer beam that has 2 beams. I just need to get the massive amount of recharges that i need for that. ITs going to alternate fire giving me a steady stream of 500K shields a second.

 

[Dvaren]

Shield supply beam triggering combat recharge was intentional. They did not when they were originally added.

Thank you Lecic...I was not aware of this. I simply saw the bug on the bug tracker and did not notice if it were rejected. =)
[DOUBLEPOST=1444772283,1444772134][/DOUBLEPOST]

Having the shield transfers beam put its target in *under fire mode* Is not really an issue

Firing he shield transfer beam puts it's own recharge rate into under fire mode. =)

 

[Daro_Khan]

Thank you Lecic...I was not aware of this. I simply saw the bug on the bug tracker and did not notice if it were rejected. =)
[DOUBLEPOST=1444772283,1444772134][/DOUBLEPOST]

Firing he shield transfer beam puts it's own recharge rate into under fire mode. =)

awwwwwwwww That meas its just a glorified battery. Now i fall under the group of people that wants that fixed XD

 

[Lecic]

awwwwwwwww That meas its just a glorified battery. Now i fall under the group of people that wants that fixed XD

It's intentional. There's nothing to be fixed. Changing it would be breaking it. Can you even imagine how massively overpowered bypassing the shield regen combat limit is?

 

[Daro_Khan]

It's intentional. There's nothing to be fixed. Changing it would be breaking it. Can you even imagine how massively overpowered bypassing the shield regen combat limit is?

very id rather just have more capcatory on the ship.



BUT SUPPLY beams are useful for ship to ship support in fleet fights. very useful

 

[Panpiper]

It's intentional. There's nothing to be fixed. Changing it would be breaking it. Can you even imagine how massively overpowered bypassing the shield regen combat limit is?

No, apparently I cannot. I was completely oblivious to this absolute nerf of shield regen and have been building ships on the assumption that the listed 5.5 shield points per second per module is the shield regen one actually got. (Shield regeneration 'outside' of combat is almost completely irrelevant.) That this should in fact actually be 0.55 shield points (or less) per second, written down nowhere I found for the last bleeping year (!!!?) actually makes me angry. I feel like I've been lied to and the result is EVERY ship I have built in the last year has been a hamstrung lame duck for adding so many absolutely useless shield regenerators. Unless you are expecting your shields to last three and a half minutes, every shield regenerator you add to your ship is a net loss of combat power, and NO shield is going to last three and a half minutes in an equal fight.

So apparently shields are not meant to be an actual active defensive system to be relied on but are simply a short term, general purpose ablation effect to precede the real fight with armor, that is frankly, seriously underwhelming compared to proper armor.

 

[Daro_Khan]

No, apparently I cannot. I was completely oblivious to this absolute nerf of shield regen and have been building ships on the assumption that the listed 5.5 shield points per second per module is the shield regen one actually got. That this should in fact actually be 0.55 shield points per second, written down nowhere I found for the last bleeping year (!!!?) actually makes me angry. I feel like I've been lied to and the result is EVERY ship I have built in the last year has been a hamstrung lame duck for adding so many absolutely useless shield regenerators. Unless you are expecting your shields to last three and a half minutes, every shield regenerator you add to your ship is a net loss of combat power, and NO shield is going to last three and a half minutes in an equal fight.

So apparently shields are not meant to be an actual active defensive system to be relied on but are simply a short term, general purpose ablation effect to precede the real fight with armor, that is frankly, seriously underwhelming compared to proper armor.
[DOUBLEPOST=1444774808,1444774650][/DOUBLEPOST]

Nods i miss the text changing to show under fire recharge. The old UI had it.....we have this suddden change of POOF shield down BOOM no hull left to ... BOOM shields down Armor super super usefull core no longer a target.

It seems Shields have stayed the same. and have not changed yet.


and shields have not been nerfed. they they same before the armor update. its just he GUI updated removed the *under combat this is your current shield recharge rate* display

 

[Lecic]

No, apparently I cannot. I was completely oblivious to this absolute nerf of shield regen and have been building ships on the assumption that the listed 5.5 shield points per second per module is the shield regen one actually got. (Shield regeneration 'outside' of combat is almost completely irrelevant.) That this should in fact actually be 0.55 shield points (or less) per second, written down nowhere I found for the last bleeping year (!!!?) actually makes me angry. I feel like I've been lied to and the result is EVERY ship I have built in the last year has been a hamstrung lame duck for adding so many absolutely useless shield regenerators. Unless you are expecting your shields to last three and a half minutes, every shield regenerator you add to your ship is a net loss of combat power, and NO shield is going to last three and a half minutes in an equal fight.

So apparently shields are not meant to be an actual active defensive system to be relied on but are simply a short term, general purpose ablation effect to precede the real fight with armor, that is frankly, seriously underwhelming compared to proper armor.

...Have you ever fought a ship with regen focused shielding? The things are damn near impossible to kill without enough alpha to 1 hit their shields.

 

[Panpiper]

...Have you ever fought a ship with regen focused shielding? The things are damn near impossible to kill without enough alpha to 1 hit their shields.

All of my ships have had what I thought at the time were powerful shields with powerful regen (for their size), and the armament of the ship was more than capable of reducing it's own shields. My current fly around ship has 17 million shields with full ion effect and what I thought was 900K shield regen. It is capable of putting out substantially more than three million damage per second, more than enough to rapidly take down it's own shields. My assumption was simply that ships that had enough regeneration to be impervious to my offense would have sacrificed so much as to render me impervious to them as well. I see no issue with stalemate engagements, it simply means you need to bring allies to the fight, it means alliances and maneuver and concentration of fire in fleet engagements, none of which are bad things and I 'thought' that was how the game was being built. I see now that the game is intended to be one where everyone can be whittled down, that team efforts, strategy and good fleet tactics are not needed for military success, just a willingness to sit tight and trade blows to the end. Sadly not the game I thought was being built.

 

[GRHayes]

No, apparently I cannot. I was completely oblivious to this absolute nerf of shield regen and have been building ships on the assumption that the listed 5.5 shield points per second per module is the shield regen one actually got. (Shield regeneration 'outside' of combat is almost completely irrelevant.) That this should in fact actually be 0.55 shield points (or less) per second, written down nowhere I found for the last bleeping year (!!!?) actually makes me angry. I feel like I've been lied to and the result is EVERY ship I have built in the last year has been a hamstrung lame duck for adding so many absolutely useless shield regenerators. Unless you are expecting your shields to last three and a half minutes, every shield regenerator you add to your ship is a net loss of combat power, and NO shield is going to last three and a half minutes in an equal fight.

So apparently shields are not meant to be an actual active defensive system to be relied on but are simply a short term, general purpose ablation effect to precede the real fight with armor, that is frankly, seriously underwhelming compared to proper armor.

So totally agree. I can care less what shield regen is when I am not in combat. I only care about what it is in combat.

 

[Dvaren]

...Have you ever fought a ship with regen focused shielding? The things are damn near impossible to kill without enough alpha to 1 hit their shields.

Unless I'm using this formula wrong:

R = NR * 5.5 * (1 + S / C) / 20

A ship with 6 million shields and 500,000 per second regen is reduced to a 24,500 recharge rate per second after taking a single 100k hit (my cruiser will do that with a single turret per shot if not more). The second shot reduces that another 350, so on and so on. After a third has been depleted, this number boasts a piddling 16,600 ... or a hair over 3% of the original rate.

I've only witnessed down to 5% personally, so perhaps the formula is leaving something out....but regardless...

You would need 2 million regeneration to absorb even 100k damage or nearly 370,000 regen modules....

Perhaps titan or capital class ships can handle this, but for many, regen focused ships are simply not an option.

 

[Daro_Khan]

Hmmmmmmm. It just really make shields usefully for taking small hits. but big huge hits forget it


does amount of shields have any baring on recharge rate?

E.I 12Mill shields instead of 6? Or is it just % of amount of recharges?