Hitpoints rework

    Does the hitpoint system need a rework?

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    Hello, TL;DR below.
    I am a, let's say, quite passionate player of Star Made, as I really like the concept of being able to be creative by creating ships and structures, which not only need to look nice, but also have to have a build which makes sense. An excellent combination of form and function. However, what concernes me mostly, is the connection of those both concepts, because that is obviously a point, which is not only hard to accomplish, but also rather new in the gaming world.

    Hitpoints
    In this case, I think the introduction of the hitpoint system was a very good step in the right direction. However, it not only has several flaws (being 50% hitpoints death and not 0% (which could be easily solved by a little scaling)), but it is still not in a final state. However, being the most recent patch, it is still way better than having to poke the core a little to destroy the target. Anyways, good job there, and with the patch notes I can understand the issues being involved about how to even calculate hitpoints.


    To the point
    My suggestion is to trying to get away from the thougth of flying around with a ship and modifying it "on the fly." This certainly does not happen, except maybe in the very early phases of a survival mode game. As of now, if even one single block is destroyed of a ship you had to carefully design, you want to restore it. Either you go there and try to recreate what might be missing (which can be quite impossible) or you salvage it and load a fresh blueprint.

    Therefore I would suggest the principles of EvE about hitpoints, having structural hitpoints, armor and shields, but with the difference, that blocks will get destroyed only while shields and armor are at zero. (If there is anything good about EvE, it's their hitpoint and regeneration mechanics.)


    Shields: Working just like now. Absorbing all damage, regenerating itself, 2 blocks to define regeneration and capacity. One difference: Shields now always cover all docked objects and not only down to 50%.

    Hitpoints amount based on: Shield capacitors.
    Restoration: By time with shield generators.


    Armor: As soon as shields go down, armor hitpoints gets damaged. Armor hitpoints should depend on the amount of hull blocks available on the whole ship. If hull blocks are being destroyed, the maximum armor hitpoints will stay the same, using the actual (new) method about defining current and maximum. However, while armor is above 0, no blocks will be destroyed per se. Armor will not regenerate, and it will need some sort of repair (with shops, shipyards, station stuff) or repair beams or maybe new armor repair blocks of some sort - anyways, it should take time and maybe some stationary break.

    Hitpoints amount based on: Hull mass of entire entity.
    Restoration: Either very slowly over time or with external repairings, but mostly while out of combat.


    Structure: As soon as shields and armor are at 0, structural hitpoints are drained and blocks damaged and destroyed, just like now with hitpoints. However, the damage to the blocks and the damage to the structural hitpoints should be separated. The criteria to drain hitpoints should not be to actually destroy the blocks, rather than to punish the target until it's damages are enough to make it a wreck. Meaning, a giant capital ship cannon should be oneshotting a little interceptor or scout if it hits. While a ship is being fired on, it loses blocks and the chance to be hit at the same spot will slightly lower, however the blocks and their functionality is also lost; plus they lose structural hitpoints based on the shot damage taken. There might be shots penetrating blocks, but still should do their full damage to the ship and not only tickle. As of now, finishing off targets, no matter how big or small, is a tough work. Missiles are super effective at it - too good at it, but cannons and beams are super bad.

    Hitpoints amount based on: (Mass of all hull + all utility blocks) * x. x being a modifier to bring it roughly to a value between armor and shields. If it is too high, it means the phase of destroying blocks will be entered too soon, if it is too low, it means the phase of destroying blocks is too short and insignificant. I would prefer a rather low amount. ~> The destruction of blocks and the draining of hitpoints should be aligned in some way to make sense.
    Restoration: Shop / Shipyard / Rebuilding blocks / maybe a restoration by blueprint? Well anyways, whatever you would do now to fix a broken ship also applies here. The pure hitpoints might be restored together with armor or at a shop for a price.


    Weapon damages have to be adjusted of course if necessary. Everything which was melting down shields in only few seconds would in this case also melt armor similarily.


    Bonus for interieurs: Each empty block within an entity which is surrounded on at least 5 sides by any other block at the end of the line is considered to contribute to armor and shield capacity. This will have the effect on negating the negative effect of not filling the inner of a ship with utility blocks - also this would need no rework of already existing designs.
    How: Count the empty blocks, count the hull blocks and the shield capacitor blocks. (Rather count the mass for hull blocks! But let's ignore this for now.)
    Let's say, we have 30 empty blocks, 20 shields blocks, 80 hull blocks. Each empty block will count as 20% shield capacitor block and 80% hull block. Those blocks however should increase the mass regarding propulsion, with the same calculation - or, they add like 30% less - and/or they don't contribute to structure hitpoints. Anyways, the calculation:

    Shield capacitor blocks: 20 + 30* (20 / (20+80) ) = 20 + 30 * 0.2 = 20 + 6 blocks.
    Hull blocks: 80 + 30* (80 / (20+80) ) = 80 + 30 * 0.8 = 80 + 24 blocks.


    Ps: Remember, the first things falling off your ship will be the cameras. At that point it becomes a horror to fight. Imagine boxing would be like that... the first thing the enemy does is poking your eyes out with a prison shank.

    Thanks for reading.


    TL;DR:
    Shields: Protect turrets not only down to 50%, regenerate by itself.
    Armor: Protects blocks, based on overall hull mass.
    Structure: Similar to actual hitpoints, reaching 0 (or the minimum) means destruction.
    Bonus: Empty space within the ships counts relative towards shield capacitor and hull mass amount for shields and armor calculation, making interieurs not a waste of efficiency.
     
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    Having armor protect everything until it gets to 0% just extends the period of time until damage is done and the interior design of the ship actually starts mattering. Nope.
    Armor should partly protect everything to different amounts. So stuff like hull should be 70-80% protection (more than now), your basic systems (like thrusters and power) should get maybe 20%, weapons and effects get maybe 10%

    Shields: Maybe have a range of protection depending on mass/shields, but letting everything get 100% protection from shields again makes it an issue of just hammering on the ship without any strategy.

    Bonus for interieurs: Each empty block within an entity which is surrounded on at least 5 sides by any other block at the end of the line is considered to contribute to armor and shield capacity. This will have the effect on negating the negative effect of not filling the inner of a ship with utility blocks - also this would need no rework of already existing designs.
    How: Count the empty blocks, count the hull blocks and the shield capacitor blocks. (Rather count the mass for hull blocks! But let's ignore this for now.)
    Ummm... This might be a good idea but coming up with a way to define what counts as an interior is kinda complex.
    Also I'm not sure what exactly the algorithm you're proposing is but I don't think it'll work.
     
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    Having armor protect everything until it gets to 0% just extends the period of time until damage is done and the interior design of the ship actually starts mattering. Nope.
    I see your point, but there are several conceptual problems.

    1. There is a scaling problem. It is mostly 1 block thick, maybe 2 blocks if size allows, but there is no real inbetween, and also it is hard to design. Weapons will increasingly penetrate hull and blocks behind more and more, which makes hull not scale so insanely like weapons.
    2. Many ship designers like to place decorative blocks on the outside of ships or just plain weapon modules or engines. In case someone has the idea to (like I once did) let damage scale based on what is hit (either hull, weapons or engines which would need to be on the outside to work), this would be a design disadvantage. Also it might just contribute to cover each ship completely will hull. Also you would dictate what needs to be on the outside (like weapons and engines), which would be fine for me, but I am not sure about others.
    3. How much does it matter what you place where in the inside actually? I think the pure fact that anything gets broken is enough, unless you can see from the outside what you are actually aiming at, but to be efficient, one would just completely hide it or place stuff randomly. Even the slightest damage is already enough to screw one over. Your weapons are damaged? Fine, no damage any more. Your cameras are destroyed? Bad semi-buggy view from ship core. Your computers are destroyed? Nothing works any more. Just blast a big hole anywhere and it is guaranted to cripple a player. 99% of the time it is just - hit anything to drain hitpoints to finish the target off.

    Also there is still the problem, that if only a few blocks get destroyed, you may aswell salvage your whole ship and buy a new... or try to repair it by hand. This is all a quite frustrating work to do and an avoidable timesink. As it is now, it is way more fun to have just armor act as the last resort of defense and anything after that is just the utter finishing off part. If you can, you would want to leave combat with around 20-30% armor remaining. However, being in the armor phase and having temporarily malfunctioning systems is another considerable idea.

    Also as of now, armor hitpoints are more gimmick than anything that makes much sense or has a positive gameplay impact. You can barely influence it, as one of the most crucial problems is to actually hit the blocks instead of taking down their block hitpoints. At that both cannons and beams are very bad for, compared with missiles with explosive effects which just totally annihilate shieldless targets.

    but coming up with a way to define what counts as an interior is kinda complex.
    No. It is quite simple in theory. I assume the entities are built up in some sort of sections or chunks. Take all loaded chunks and check all unused place (empty blocks) if they are surrounded on at least 5 of 6 sides with any existing block - or reversed: If at least 2 rays hit nothing (space). Because if there are 5 sides of any block, it means these blocks can only be in the inside of a ship with at most 1 hole into space. How to code this in particular is another question, but there are certainly multiple ways for that. And it would easily work, the question is just how to minimize the performance requirement for these checks.
     

    CyberTao

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    • There should be an option in the block config that would allow you to set it to 100% armour absorption, is that what you're after?

    • Breaking blocks is the appeal of the game, people WANT to see the ship get wheedled away as you fire at it. That was legit the biggest concern when people heard about the HP system; not being able to break blocks until you emptied a '2nd shield'.

    • When your ship gets to 60% HP, did you know that you only have 30% of your systems left? Aside from the loss of blocks, the game inparts a debuffs that scales down things like Thrust, Power regen and Shield regen, so when you hit 50% HP, you really have 0% systems left functional. Saying that we should make it so you have to destroy EVERY block is absurd.

    • People will still put Decorative blocks outside of the ship, as most people have realized that thicker armour is worth it. An outer decorative layer and a inner layer of advanced hull protects the ship just as well has a out layer of advanced hull, all I see here is a refusal to adapt to the direction of the game.

    • You seem to be forgetting that this is Alpha and features are missing. Wait for shipyards before complaining about replacing entire ships over 2 missing blocks.
    Also, you can't define interior, because you can not define what is "Inside" and what is "Outside". Any definition of interior based on touching blocks would mark a antenna as part of a room. A Segment is a 16x16x16 block of blocks remember.
     
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    3. How much does it matter what you place where in the inside actually?
    Internal armor plates right now can slow down an enemy's attack when they hit it. Proper placement of internal armor can protect blocks of systems, while also increasing structure.
     
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    Yeah, I don't like the way armor works now. But this isn't the way to fix it.
    Basically combat is a little more fun, you can't just core drill anymore. And a station, having little to no systems, is still nigh impossible to destroy because it is mad mostly of armor.
    But having armor work as a second shield is silly. That sorta misses the point.
    Armor right now lets a missile just drill through it. This isn't really ok.
    I think that the armor hp should absorb damage based on the number of armor blocks next to it. So if you have armor surrounded on 5 sides, armor HP absorbs 90% damage. If, as is more normal, it is surrounded on 4 sides, armor HP only absorbs 80%. A lone armor block works as now.
    This way, the thicker your armor, the harder your ship is to destroy, and surrounding your entire ship with armor is worthwhile. So you hit 2-block thick armor. The first block takes 10% of the damage, then is destroyed. The second block then only takes 1% of the damage. Anything left carries over under the armor. BUT, if you have three block thick armor, the first block takes 10% of the damage, and is destroyed. The second block takes no damage. To hit the inside of the ship, you have to shoot it multiple times. So having 6 block thick armor will make your ship very hard to penetrate, needing to be hit at least six times, right up until your armor HP is completely drained.
    (This is assuming that we modify missile AOE a bit, so that the damage checks outward from the point of contact, rather than just hitting the whole thing at the same time).
    I'm not sure how you could use wedges with this, but maybe it could be made so that they would only need the percentage of whatever sides were exposed. So a wedge surrounded on 4 sides would only take 1/5 of the damage, a tetra surrounded on three sides would take 1/3 of the damage. A hepta would work like a normal block. Just done in such a way that corners don't become weak spots, and a curved ship isn't at a huge disadvantage.
     
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    Well anyways, there are 2 possibilities.

    1: You take a hitpoint system like mentioned above to prevent block damage until the point starts, where your ship gets in the phase of being demolished (0 shields, 0 armor) and having blocks malfunctioning temporarily to compensate for their destruction in the armor phase.
    Or 2: There is the possibility to repair damaged and missing blocks with minimum effort, and cameras get some kind of special treatment, so that view will not be semi-buggy as soon the first blocks are getting destroyed (this is very annoying), as cameras are normally at the most front place and very vulnerable.

    Regarding this I just want to ask - what is more important? Creating and designing a ship, which then has very diverse stats and systems or being able to see blocks getting demolished?

    I think the answer is within the design, the creation,... the numbers and the optic. Only because the game is voxel based it does not mean everything has to fall apart as soon as possible... Only because something is possible it does not mean it is good. The best state would be, if form and function harmonies as much as possible, which would improve gameplay by far.
     

    CyberTao

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    Reparing ships will be made easier with shipyards, which is also needed to make BP spawning less annoying as well. Game is missing a rather important bit, and I'd rather not see a system handicapped because it didnt do everything at once.

    If cameras are being picked off too quickly, reconsider your placement of cameras. Even before this update cameras in the nose of a ship were ripped out early, so it's not a problem with this system, it's a placement thing.

    You can get fairly diverse ships as is, you just have to learn to adapt your building to an ever changing Alpha game. if you want 100% Armour absorption, it's in the configs for you to play with, but it should not be default.
    <ArmorHpAbsorbtion>0.5</ArmorHpAbsorbtion>

    <!-- absorbedDamageToArmorHP = ArmorHpAbsorbtion; How much damage of a shot can be absorbed to armorHP; this is a static value; set it to 0 if you want to use a dynamic variance instead with ArmorHpDamageThreshold-->
     
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    Battle, you know you can nest cameras inside of armor? I'm just curious, it's very rare for me to lose a camera
     

    Groovrider

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    Battle, you know you can nest cameras inside of armor? I'm just curious, it's very rare for me to lose a camera
    yeah I always put cameras in a "sensor nodes" i.e. a bank of advance armor that houses a camera at its centre. 2 or 3 of these node are then place in different areas of the ship.
     
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    I'm the first to both agree the HP system needs work and that your suggestion is a good idea (in the poll). Sad. While I wouldn't say your suggestion has all the answers, it's pretty clear to me that there is still a lot of work to be done on the HP system. It's a lot better than before, but that doesn't mean there isn't a long way to go.



    As of now, if even one single block is destroyed of a ship you had to carefully design, you want to restore it. Either you go there and try to recreate what might be missing (which can be quite impossible) or you salvage it and load a fresh blueprint.

    Therefore I would suggest the principles of EvE about hitpoints, having structural hitpoints, armor and shields, but with the difference, that blocks will get destroyed only while shields and armor are at zero. (If there is anything good about EvE, it's their hitpoint and regeneration mechanics.)





    Armor: As soon as shields go down, armor hitpoints gets damaged. Armor hitpoints should depend on the amount of hull blocks available on the whole ship. If hull blocks are being destroyed, the maximum armor hitpoints will stay the same, using the actual (new) method about defining current and maximum. However, while armor is above 0, no blocks will be destroyed per se.
    I had a variation on your idea: a "magnetized armor" computer/module which would cause all of the armor and hull blocks on your ship to spread damage out to nearby blocks. The more magnetized armor blocks you have, the further the damage spreads, perhaps with a 1:1 ratio, for instance a ship with 100 magnetized armor blocks would make all hits to an armor block spread the damage out to the 100 nearest armor blocks. If the ship has fewer armor/hull blocks remaining, the damage spreads evenly to all of them. This would not affect missiles or other area damage effects.

    This would make your armor able to take minor damage with no block loss, though in sustained combat the armor will weaken and still fall just as before. Having magnetized armor would be best for light combat or for mitigating damage hitting all over at once, and would make the ship weaker to beam attacks that would otherwise be overkilling the blocks. They would be mostly a waste of space for heavy broadside warfare or against siege weaponry.



    I also think that trade stations and shipyards should be able to replace blocks that have been shot off your ship, provided you haven't rebooted since you lost them. At trade stations they should use blocks from their own inventory and charge you for them in addition to the repair fee, while shipyards should be able to perform block replacement repair work from your station inventory.