Heat/Cooling as an alternative to stabilizers and reactor HP

[Non]

We won't judge

I'll judge, I always do.

 

[Dire Venom]

I'll judge, I always do.

(Sssshhhhh :P We know we'll all be judjing them silently (or not so) in our hearts :P Best not to tell them though)

 

[starhaiden]

There no need to add more blocks, hull can be used to do what the conduits and heat sinks do.
All hull could have the same heat capacity maybe advance hull can have a slightly higher heat capacity.
The heat dissipation of the hull blocks could depend on the number of its sides that aren't connected to other blocks, if all of its sides have adjacent blocks it dissipates 0 heat. The hull blocks have to be connected to the reactor by other hull blocks or being directly connected to the reactor to be able to store and dissipate heat.

 

[Valiant70]

There no need to add more blocks, hull can be used to do what the conduits and heat sinks do.
All hull could have the same heat capacity maybe advance hull can have a slightly higher heat capacity.
The heat dissipation of the hull blocks could depend on the number of its sides that aren't connected to other blocks, if all of its sides have adjacent blocks it dissipates 0 heat. The hull blocks have to be connected to the reactor by other hull blocks or being directly connected to the reactor to be able to store and dissipate heat.

That could also work since it makes hull (and especially irregular shapes) contribute to your usable power.

 

[Zoolimar]

The heat dissipation of the hull blocks could depend on the number of its sides that aren't connected to other blocks, if all of its sides have adjacent blocks it dissipates 0 heat.

No.

Not like this. This leads to a full on 3D checkerboard which would be a pain on bigger ships.

 

[Cluwne]

starhaiden Valiant70
I kinda wonder if conduits could fit into it somehow.
Like if heat works per block, rather than for the entire entity, conduits could have very high heat conductivity, thus allowing you to dump heat away from systems and stuff like crew quarters.
Otherwise make them provide bonus heat venting efficiency in a radius around them if they're connected to the reactor, encouraging their use rather than punishing for not using them.
Zoolimar
A weird way to encourage having an interior by the way that would be.
Can't some checking be done to see if blocks are exposed to space rather than the interior?

 

[Valiant70]

starhaiden Valiant70
I kinda wonder if conduits could fit into it somehow.
Like if heat works per block, rather than for the entire entity, conduits could have very high heat conductivity, thus allowing you to dump heat away from systems and stuff like crew quarters.
Otherwise make them provide bonus heat venting efficiency in a radius around them if they're connected to the reactor, encouraging their use rather than punishing for not using them.

According to Lancake, doing anything with destroyed conduits has performance issues. I'm not sure why it's so bad, but apparently it's prohibitive. So if conduits provide a bonus they should probably have a drawback as well, or else they won't be terribly interesting as a design choice.

 

[Cluwne]

Well, conduits use power, not much but it'll be noticeable if there's a lot of 'em, I think.
Besides, there is already a dilemma of whether one should lay down some conduits and sculpt the hull to use them efficiently for better heat management or just leave a big slab of armor with "radiator fins".

After all, in that capacity conduits act like a part of active thermal control system, although not entirely desirable, it makes sense for them to have elevated power consumption, unless...
Unless we add a computer that you connect those conduits to, effectively turning them into heat pipes and removing the energy cost.
Then, should you have a need to get rid of excess heat, you activate that computer, turning on active cooling that costs energy but is very effective at removing heat. A heat management equivalent of Auxiliary Power if you will.

 

[MacThule]

No.

Not like this. This leads to a full on 3D checkerboard which would be a pain on bigger ships.

No pain no gain.

Complete, perfect optimization isn't required for every ship or even any ship. Give autism a chance!

 

[Valiant70]

No.

Not like this. This leads to a full on 3D checkerboard which would be a pain on bigger ships.

Counter that with an integrity mechanic of some sort. As long as you don't go overboard with it, it shouldn't limit creativity.

 

[Zoolimar]

Can't some checking be done to see if blocks are exposed to space rather than the interior?

Yes. 6 checks per block, repeated every time you put down a block (or even when they are destroyed). Let's say we have 1k of hull - that's 20'000 blocks or 120'000 checks where you must use some kind of ray or vector to see if anything blocks the side of the block.

Complete, perfect optimization isn't required for every ship or even any ship. Give autism a chance!

Optimization is required for combat ships. Which means that RP ships would lag even more behind.

Counter that with an integrity mechanic of some sort. As long as you don't go overboard with it, it shouldn't limit creativity.

It's easier to counter by demanding to have only one open face. Should be easier to check and would lead to plate radiators. Still may be a pain.

 

[Valiant70]

Yes. 6 checks per block, repeated every time you put down a block (or even when they are destroyed). Let's say we have 1k of hull - that's 20'000 blocks or 120'000 checks where you must use some kind of ray or vector to see if anything blocks the side of the block.


Optimization is required for combat ships. Which means that RP ships would lag even more behind.


It's easier to counter by demanding to have only one open face. Should be easier to check and would lead to plate radiators. Still may be a pain.

I should've thought of that. Even then I don't know if it would be computationally feasible or not.

 

[MacThule]

Optimization is required for combat ships.

This statement is so obvious on its face that I'm having trouble understanding what you intend to convey that you think I may not understand about it. Because this fact doesn't have any direct logical implication for the difficulty of achieving that optimization at various scales within a given mechanic. I'm at a loss.

Unless you mean that a mechanic that cannot be 100% optimized with a casual effort is inherently bad so everything should just be easy to 100% optimize for everyone 'because combat ships,' but I find it unlikely that's what you mean. That's I'm hearing though.

 

[Zoolimar]

Unless you mean that a mechanic that cannot be 100% optimized with a casual effort is inherently bad so everything should just be easy to 100% optimize for everyone 'because combat ships,' but I find it unlikely that's what you mean. That's I'm hearing though.

No, I mean that any mechanic that doesn't make a ship look like a space opera space ship harms RP builds. The more severe the mechanic the greater the harm.

Now, how many RP ships have a swiss cheese checkerboarded armor ?

 

[Valiant70]

Now, how many RP ships have a swiss cheese checkerboarded armor ?

I could make it look okay on a lot of builds. IDK how many others could though, and some builds would just be a pain.

 

[MacThule]

No, I mean that any mechanic that doesn't make a ship look like a space opera space ship harms RP builds. The more severe the mechanic the greater the harm.

Now, how many RP ships have a swiss cheese checkerboarded armor ?

I see. Yeah, the aesthetic would only carry for a few very industrial/post-modern styles. Dovetailing performance with aesthetics is definitely preferred if and when that can work.

It's similar to the reason I'm now stuck on this difficult-to-convey epiphany that it could in fact be monumentally stupid that our systems are designed to occur in solid, non-mechanical bricks that displace interior space instead of incorporating interior space (instead of being discreet compartments that have the same effects on ship performance and capability but also organically contain interior space as part of their placement in order to perform optimally; not interior as additional to systems but interior as systems, certain systems anyway, not all). Meanwhile a debate rages eternally about how to balance the needs of interior decor "against" combat performance... instead of marrying the two by making decorative interior spaces literally, technically functional.

 

[Zoolimar]

It's similar to the reason I'm now stuck on this difficult-to-convey epiphany that it could in fact be monumentally stupid that our systems are designed to occur in solid, non-mechanical bricks that displace interior space instead of incorporating interior space (instead of being discreet compartments that have the same effects on ship performance and capability but also organically contain interior space as part of their placement in order to perform optimally; not interior as additional to systems but interior as systems, certain systems anyway, not all). Meanwhile a debate rages eternally about how to balance the needs of interior decor "against" combat performance... instead of marrying the two by making decorative interior spaces literally, technically functional.

Yep, ideally almost every block on the ship, except some flora, should be given purpose. So that placing decor blocks does make the ship more powerful in some way.

 

[Valiant70]

instead of marrying the two by making decorative interior spaces literally, technically functional.

That's the conclusion I came to as well. My solution is to make ships with high system-to-other-blocks ratios easier to destroy. That makes the extra blocks used for decoration more useful. Maybe not the block ratio specifically, but something along those lines.

 

[NTIMESc]

This is idea is almost exactly what I was thinking about the other day. Just a few comments:

What if all blocks had values for thermal conductivity, thermal capacity and heat, as well as a structural integrity rule specific to the block category?

Conductivity would allow a block to move heat (faster or slower), capacity would allow a block to store heat before taking damage (or lowering efficiency), and heat would be the temperature of the block. The structural integrity rule would provide a structural HP modifier determined by different algorithms for different types of blocks.

For instance, Hull would have high conductivity, but low capacity. Adv. Armor would have high conductivity and high capacity. Both would have structural integrity bonuses when placed adjacent to other hull/armor blocks (or whatever algorithm makes sense for hull).
Reactor blocks might have medium conductivity and capacity, and structural integrity could be based on spherical density of the group (or, again, whatever makes sense).

Heat could move from blocks with higher heat to adjacent blocks with lower heat. Hull (or special Heat Sink) blocks would magically lose heat, since there is currently no inside/outside to ships. This might not be feasible per block, but capacity could be pooled into groups, to reduce calculations, or some other derivative used, the implementation of which I leave to the programmer.

Reactors generate heat depending on how much power is produced

In addition, I would want all other blocks/systems to produce heat on consumption of power.

maybe hull could provide cooling if connected via conduits

I think allowing armor to work as a heat sink is essential, as armor tanks will be taking more block damage than a shield tank will. Thus, they NEED the extra heat capacity and dissipation that some armor would give them.

Hull should be the primary heat sink used in most builds. I suppose the Stabilizer block could be changed to a high-efficiency heat sink (that is essentially dead weight) for specialized ships needing it.

Don't force people who don't want armor to have armor, it's not fun. Nor will adding what you say (baffles or additional layers) meaningfully affect survivabilty, almost any decent gun will shoot right through it.

Armor wouldn't be required, but some sort of hull structure would. Also, I don't assume that weapons and armor will continue to work as they have in the old system.

 

[Dire Venom]

Solid suggesstion NTIMESc
A well done heat mechanic could do wonders for this game.