Recognized by Council Give Tab+F8 Official Documentation/Support as Admin/Creative tool.

    Give Tab+F8 Official Documentation/Support as Admin/Creative tool?

    • Yes.

      Votes: 40 97.6%
    • No.

      Votes: 1 2.4%

    • Total voters
      41

    ToasterBorst

    Formerly known as Weishaupt
    Joined
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages
    164
    Reaction score
    172
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Wired for Logic
    Simple as the thread title states. Tab+F8 is just too freaking useful to not become an officially documented and supported admin and creative mode tool, it is already more than just a development and testing tool (debug tool).

    Please, discuss & vote.
     
    Joined
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages
    15
    Reaction score
    9
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen
    I also want it to be a non-admin creative tool. Non-admins in creative mode would only be able into teleport into ships they spawned.
     

    CyberTao

    鬼佬
    Joined
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages
    2,564
    Reaction score
    641
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Railman Gold
    • Thinking Positive
    I thought Tab-F8 was technically a 'Dev' tool, not an admin one, one of a handful of tools that were mostly only in the game for testing reasons.
     
    Joined
    Jun 24, 2015
    Messages
    385
    Reaction score
    59
    While that is rather likely CyberTao, I cannot think of anyone doing a creative multi-entity build that doesn't use TAB+F8, except those few who don't know of it.
     

    ToasterBorst

    Formerly known as Weishaupt
    Joined
    Sep 12, 2013
    Messages
    164
    Reaction score
    172
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Wired for Logic
    I thought Tab-F8 was technically a 'Dev' tool, not an admin one, one of a handful of tools that were mostly only in the game for testing reasons.
    You are correct. ..and yet it is so useful as an admin and creative building tool that most who know of it cannot live without it, in my experience at least. Hence the poll and thread. :)
     
    Joined
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages
    552
    Reaction score
    182
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    While that is rather likely CyberTao, I cannot think of anyone doing a creative multi-entity build that doesn't use TAB+F8, except those few who don't know of it.
    Speaking as one who doesn't know about it.... what is it?
     
    Joined
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages
    552
    Reaction score
    182
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    wow... that would be the most useful thing ever in my current build.... You have my yes vote ! And my Thanks for making me aware this existed.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ToasterBorst
    Joined
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages
    299
    Reaction score
    84
    I thought Tab-F8 was technically a 'Dev' tool, not an admin one, one of a handful of tools that were mostly only in the game for testing reasons.
    Teleporting into a ship can help a lot if it comes to analysing a ship to whether it is breaking the rules
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ToasterBorst
    Joined
    Nov 3, 2014
    Messages
    624
    Reaction score
    287
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Wired for Logic
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    because of the getting spawned stuck in a different entity mechanic still being buggy tab+F8 is often the only way of not ruining some build just to get your character free. this is so useful i hate playing survival because this not being available and knowing it.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ToasterBorst

    Erth Paradine

    Server Admln & Bug Reporter
    Joined
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages
    239
    Reaction score
    58
    It'd be nice if this combination also didn't open the tutorial menu now too - which is super-annoying.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ToasterBorst
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    896
    Reaction score
    166
    Simple as the thread title states. Tab+F8 is just too freaking useful to not become an officially documented and supported admin and creative mode tool, it is already more than just a development and testing tool (debug tool).

    Please, discuss & vote.
    I'm going to say, document all the undocumented key combinations.

    All of us are de-facto playtesting alpha software, and it is annoying to not know which keys/combinations do have an effect, and often it's difficult to tell right away what happened, or whether anything happened at all.

    Some combinations are useful (eg. "show logic connections only"), some may be dangerous (even more reason to document them properly), some may be considered cheaty by some, but until this games is ready for release, there is no reason to "hide" this information under a veil of obscurity.

    When the time comes for release, disable all debug/cheat combinations slash functions for everyone, and properly include those that remain into the keyboard config menu. Functions like Tab-F8 should get restricted to admins or single-player only, but again, these functions need to be configurable, user-side key binds as well as server-side, per-user/per-group (ie. admins only) permissions.


    Only if all functions are documented for everyone to see can there even be a discussion which, if any, should be persisted into release.
     
    Joined
    Apr 8, 2014
    Messages
    535
    Reaction score
    277
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    3+ years of playing & over 2 years on the forum and I'm just now learning of this. Up voting! We need documentation on all the neat little goodies you guys have been hiding from us.
     

    Lancake

    Head of Testing
    Joined
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages
    794
    Reaction score
    560
    • Schine
    • Tester
    Well, I agree with the non dangerous ones...but documenting the dangerous debug commands is not going to help.
    If there's a command that anyone can use, that can permanently wipe a sector you're in without it even getting logged in your logs, then making its shortcut publicly known is even worse than exposing one of the biggest exploits we have.
     
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    896
    Reaction score
    166
    Well, I agree with the non dangerous ones...but documenting the dangerous debug commands is not going to help.
    If there's a command that anyone can use, that can permanently wipe a sector you're in without it even getting logged in your logs, then making its shortcut publicly known is even worse than exposing one of the biggest exploits we have.
    What's to stop anyone pressing every F1+key combination to find out - much worse, what if I don't know about any dangerous combinations and "find out" the hard way how to wipe an entire sector without it even showing up in my logs?
    I absolutely agree with not publishing exploits, at least until they are fixed, but stuff that can happen by accident should be documented so accidents don't happen.
     

    jayman38

    Precentor-Primus, pro-tempore
    Joined
    Jul 13, 2014
    Messages
    2,518
    Reaction score
    787
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    It's OK to document a key combo as "Hardcoded; Dev Debug Use Only", with no further details, but every key combo should be documented. it will help prevent players from remapping things that have a dangerous or otherwise serious use or getting frustrated by a keymap blockage that doesn't appear to have any effect (assuming the player is not admin on the server). The curious player can look at the combo in the documentation, see that it's a hard-coded dev-related keymap, and try a different combo.
     

    DrTarDIS

    Eldrich Timelord
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages
    1,114
    Reaction score
    310
    Simple as the thread title states. Tab+F8 is just too freaking useful to not become an officially documented and supported admin and creative mode tool, it is already more than just a development and testing tool (debug tool).

    Please, discuss & vote.
    I agree, even plebeian gods should know how to possess things.
     

    Lancake

    Head of Testing
    Joined
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages
    794
    Reaction score
    560
    • Schine
    • Tester
    What's to stop anyone pressing every F1+key combination to find out - much worse, what if I don't know about any dangerous combinations and "find out" the hard way how to wipe an entire sector without it even showing up in my logs?
    I absolutely agree with not publishing exploits, at least until they are fixed, but stuff that can happen by accident should be documented so accidents don't happen.
    Because there are also combinations that require you to press 4 buttons at once. Those are the most dangerous ones to use since they can break entire sectors or universes when not properly used.

    EDIT: Besides, some require specific conditions for them to actually do anything.
    [doublepost=1476621133,1476620975][/doublepost]
    It's OK to document a key combo as "Hardcoded; Dev Debug Use Only", with no further details, but every key combo should be documented. it will help prevent players from remapping things that have a dangerous or otherwise serious use or getting frustrated by a keymap blockage that doesn't appear to have any effect (assuming the player is not admin on the server). The curious player can look at the combo in the documentation, see that it's a hard-coded dev-related keymap, and try a different combo.
    And that's assuming that every player out there is a saint. Since these are debug commands, we don't really bother with logging or to put safety limits on it. An admin with bad intentions could mess with people without them ever knowing it was him.
     
    Joined
    Jun 24, 2015
    Messages
    385
    Reaction score
    59
    Security though obscurity, doesn't last! (though it does sometimes last just long enough, most such cases haven't been in alpha for 4 years)

    Some clever asshole will inevitably figure out one (or more!) of the commands, and will use them to fuck-up a server.
    (oh, and by stating how many buttons are used for one of them, you've greatly increased the odds that someone is going to try, because now they have a defined goal)
    (special circumstances? Yes, that helps, and you might get lucky and never have those commands get found without someone de-compiling the game)

    That one (or more) of your hard-coded commands can nuke a sector and not log what it did, is not a "player" level problem, it's a problem of "the dev-team forgot that documenting every step of every process is beyond critical". That never, ever ends well.
    (seriously, even something as simple as "command [insert name here] activated by: [insert name here]" is enough to know what just broke everything)

    In fact, it is exactly the kind of "problem" where (were I the boss) I'd fire the programmer who coded it, the idea-guy who thought it was a good idea, and instruct the rest of the team to delete that command. Oh, and I'd cock-block the release of any new versions of the game which contain said code.



    That, however, is a bit off of the original post, and I still fully support that post. (even though they've apparently changed the command in question to F1 + F8)

    I absolutely agree with not publishing exploits, at least until they are fixed, but stuff that can happen by accident should be documented so accidents don't happen.
    Documenting, for player/admin use, every key combination is both an excercise in futility (as many button combos WILL change) and one of idiocy, because as many people have been pointing out for literal centuries: People are assholes.

    Now, the simplest, EASIEST way to stop all of this? (yes, I'm aware this isn't really either, but it absolutely works)
    Locking the command to a specific hardware+software configuration.
    EX: you have to be sitting at one of the dev-team's own work computers, with a specific external authentication program running, in order to execute the command, on top of whatever special in-game circumstances are allso required. (for example, having run some other command first)