Planned Galaxy/System and Generation Rework for the Future

[Valiant70]

Spoiler: TL;DR

Get rid of the "grid" of systems.
Galaxy generation process:

• Phase 1: Position galaxy centers
• Phase 2: Stars, black holes, wormholes
• Phase 3: Form star Systems as spheres of sectors around stars
• Phase 4: When someone enters the system, generate planet and asteroid orbits and stuff
• Phase 5: When someone enters the sector, generate blocks. Don't save them if nothing is edited.

Additional mechanics:

• Fewer/weirder planets in multi-star systems
• Jump drive range affected by gravity (longer jump range in deep space)

Starmade's universe is composed of a grid of sectors. This is a basic characteristic of the engine that will not change; it will only be debugged. That's fine. What isn't fine in my opinion is that star systems are treated the same way. Stars can only be offset slightly in their system blocks, resulting in a visibly grid-like galaxy. You can see it - just look at the sky from within the galactic core. Stars are lined up in neat rows. The galaxies are the same way. This could be fixed by scattering star systems and galaxies further apart on the grid, but I have an idea that will serve better by allowing more varied star system and galaxy sizes and spacing.

Now don't go screaming at me that the Schema is focusing on other areas of development right now. Thanks, Captain Obvious-and-Obnoxious. I know that. Don't let that stop us from coming up with ideas for later.

Also, don't scream at me about adding a lot of computational overhead to galaxy generation.
1. A lot of this only happens once per galaxy.
2. None of us, including the council and most Schine staff, know the inner workings of Starmade's engine. If you don't have experience with Java, don't even comment on this. Ignorant objections make me angry.
3. Schema is smart - he will figure out how to do what he wants to do with a reasonable amount of computing. Let him handle it.

Generation phase 1: Galaxy placement.
The game should decide the placement of the centers of galaxies, and the sizes of said galaxies. This may be fairly uniform, or it could follow the actual structure of the real life universe with clusters, superclusters and ultimately walls and tendrils. Starmade's universe is plenty big enough if Schema has that kind of attention to detail.
Config options include:

• Average, minimum, and maximum galaxy sizes
• Galaxy density (how close together galaxies are)

Generation phase 2: Stars and black holes.
The game only needs to generate the spawn galaxy to begin with, until someone goes out and explores to find another galaxy. Generate the positions and masses of stars, and throw in wormholes here and there. The mass of a star is used in the next step.
Config options include:

• Density of stars
• Density of black holes
• Average number of wormhole connections per black hole

Generation phase 3: Form star systems

• For each star, check for other stars within a radius based on its mass.
• If a star is within a certain radius, flag the two stars as a binary star system.
• If two or more stars are found in proximity, reduce check radius and check again until only one "buddy" star is found. (I guess you could do trinary star systems, but IDC.)
• For single-star systems, flag sectors in a sphere around it as part of the star system. Radius of the sphere is based on the star's mass.
• For binary star systems, calculate the star system's center of gravity and form a sphere around that based on the mass of both stars.
• This might be a good time to place stuff like interstellar nebulae as well.

Generation phase 4: Orbits, planets, etc. (happens as each star system is explored)
Much like now, generate planet orbits around star systems within their boundaries. One thing needs to change, however. Orbits should be able to generate at different angles, not just in a flat disc. They may trend toward a disk, but shouldn't be exactly a disc.

Hopefully by the time Schema gets around to a major generation overhaul, we'll have additional planet types and some other celestial bodies.

Generation phase 5: Generate structures
When someone enters a sector, generate any structures that belong there. This works just like it does today. If none of the blocks change, the blocks don't need to be saved.

Additional mechanics: some random things I thought of while writing this.

• In multi-star systems, planets are less likely to be present (especially close to either star) because orbits would be goofy around two stars. Speaking realistically, those that do exist would have major climate swings.
• Since jump drives have to bend space, it makes sense that being near a gravity well would affect their function. When in a star system, jump range could be reduced somewhat. Conversely, jump range is longer outside of star systems, making interstellar voyages shorter and less boring than they would be otherwise.

 

[Ithirahad]

• Since jump drives have to bend space, it makes sense that being near a gravity well would affect their function. When in a star system, jump range could be reduced somewhat. Conversely, jump range is longer outside of star systems, making interstellar voyages shorter and less boring than they would be otherwise.

This is actually a brilliant idea. Ideally this would result in transit times being reduced because with more space between systems less time would be spent flying through system space.

Of course, I happen to be a fan of replacing the jump drives with warp drives, but meh.

 

[Madman198237]

Genius, and this suggestion pays good attention to the laws of physics as well. I don't think we'll EVER need to reach the size of superclusters, LET ALONE walls and tendrils. Because holy crap, there's only so much a computer can take before the GPU jumps out and runs around screaming, the CPU fries, and the hard drive explodes.

But yes, we NEED galactic diversity. And I would really like to see "empty" systems as an interim measure---just allow groups of sectors to spawn with nothing in them except orphan planets and (Much less common than they are now) some stations....some sneaky deep-space stations. Mostly full of pirates and/or abandoned and cool things.

 

[color98dove]

I believe in your idea, however i would add that with phase 2 that there be worm holes and seperate black holes, and maybe even add in whiteholes, white holes push you away, black holes suck you in and slowly crush your ship, and wormholes randomly teleport you to another spot in that galaxy, no more lines of travel, no knowing where your going to go, that to me is just a lazy way of saying im an explorer when you can look at a map and say ok there it is, no, you should explore it the old fashioned way, go there and see where it will take u.

 

[Ratchet Hundreda]

I really like your idea. This would definitely make the SM universe more interesting and something which would inspire more players to explore.

On behalf of exploration after the generation overhaul there could be a system which would actually make exploration a necessity for players who want to expand or find a place to call home. The galaxy map should be something which the players themself map out with the introduction of a fog of war system. This could be made even more interesting by making map info something you can trade. Some sort of system analyzis could be introduced as well so you could trade not just the galaxy topology but resultsts of planet soil analysis and asteroid belt composite analysis which would make exploration an occupation. You could buy galaxy maps others sold from tradestations or from those who mapped them themselfs. Many new ship modules could be made too which would help out analyzing systems and scanner modules which would determine the area you can detect around you. This could open the possibility for ships specilized for exploration.

I think this would definitely be an extremely exciting feature.

• Jump drive range affected by gravity (longer jump range in deep space) ...

• Since jump drives have to bend space, it makes sense that being near a gravity well would affect their function. When in a star system, jump range could be reduced somewhat. Conversely, jump range is longer outside of star systems, making interstellar voyages shorter and less boring than they would be otherwise.

I think it should work the opposite way. When near stars for example which would have the highest gravitational interplay with your ship in a system, jumps drives could benefit from a gravity assist and would enhance the distance you can travel.

Making the system work like this would make intergalactical travels even more dangerous and harsh and would make you feel more alone which is something they definitely should and something which i reckon the devs would want to see as well.

 

[Valiant70]

I think it should work the opposite way. When near stars for example which would have the highest gravitational interplay with your ship in a system, jumps drives could benefit from a gravity assist and would enhance the distance you can travel.

Gravitational assist only works sub-light. There's less stuff to do in void space so due to gameplay reasons, we want to move through it faster. This is really just a side thought for this thread anyway. It probably should have been a separate thread.

I believe in your idea, however i would add that with phase 2 that there be worm holes and seperate black holes, and maybe even add in whiteholes, white holes push you away, black holes suck you in and slowly crush your ship, and wormholes randomly teleport you to another spot in that galaxy, no more lines of travel, no knowing where your going to go, that to me is just a lazy way of saying im an explorer when you can look at a map and say ok there it is, no, you should explore it the old fashioned way, go there and see where it will take u.

I'm pretty sure white holes would vaporize you like a really huge star. What if wormholes had to be explored to reveal their destinations? I don't like the random element. Wormholes as they are now are really useful.

On behalf of exploration after the generation overhaul there could be a system which would actually make exploration a necessity for players who want to expand or find a place to call home. The galaxy map should be something which the players themself map out with the introduction of a fog of war system. This could be made even more interesting by making map info something you can trade. Some sort of system analyzis could be introduced as well so you could trade not just the galaxy topology but resultsts of planet soil analysis and asteroid belt composite analysis which would make exploration an occupation. You could buy galaxy maps others sold from tradestations or from those who mapped them themselfs. Many new ship modules could be made too which would help out analyzing systems and scanner modules which would determine the area you can detect around you. This could open the possibility for ships specilized for exploration.

This has been brought up before and could have its own thread. It would certainly compliment the ideas in the OP, although it is a separate concept. I would say reveal the locations of all stars in the local galaxy (you can see a star from across the galaxy with a telescope and we have sic-fi tech), but wait to generate and reveal planets, etc. when you enter the star system. This meshes with the generation ideas above because generation phase 4 happens when you enter a star system.

Genius, and this suggestion pays good attention to the laws of physics as well. I don't think we'll EVER need to reach the size of superclusters, LET ALONE walls and tendrils. Because holy crap, there's only so much a computer can take before the GPU jumps out and runs around screaming, the CPU fries, and the hard drive explodes.

But yes, we NEED galactic diversity. And I would really like to see "empty" systems as an interim measure---just allow groups of sectors to spawn with nothing in them except orphan planets and (Much less common than they are now) some stations....some sneaky deep-space stations. Mostly full of pirates and/or abandoned and cool things.

Heh. Don't worry. There's no way Schema would even TRY to load a supercluster into your RAM! It would just be part of a generation algorithm for the atechnically infinite universe.

 

[Ratchet Hundreda]

Gravitational assist only works sub-light. There's less stuff to do in void space so due to gameplay reasons, we want to move through it faster. This is really just a side thought for this thread anyway. It probably should have been a separate thread.

Not necessarily. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity predicts that objects with huge mass like celestial objects for example to significantly dilate space-time around them. If we would use the most popular theory for wormholes which bend space-time in a way that a tunnel is created between 2 points in space, near an object which already bends space time to a degree would help in the creation of such a tunnel. Approaching a celestial object with a considerable proportion of the speed of light would even further enhance this effect due to the gained mass of the moving vessel which itself would bend space time more then it would do stationary.

Of course many of these real life phenomena would complicate things in the game that's why you need to assume things like jump drives working of some pixie magic which enables them to create infinite amount of energy which would be required for the creation of mentioned tunnels. However that does not mean that some degree of realism is not cool to see. Realistic behaviour of certain mechnics in games tend to enchant how certain otherwise non-real mechanics feel and make them more believable thus something which is more accepted by players. When these added realistic elements could even balance and/or add more challenge to a game they are outright essential.

Intergalactical space is a wast, cold and empty place. Travelling in it should feel like it. It should feel dangerous and you should feel alone and helpless in it. That's why i think making it so that traveling in it is harder, is realistic and challenging. So according to the formula, essential.

 

[Madman198237]

Let's not drag in Einstein's physics. We don't want to do the calculations (Mostly), schema probably doesn't want to do the calculations, so let's leave it to basic concepts.

Gravity assists ONLY work traveling sublight. Why? Because we're working of the Star Wars theory of interdimensional hyperspace travel, or I assume we are, because translight/FTL is MESSY in our particular set of dimensions.
(I.e., bending-space-and-time messy. As in, physical impossibility, unless you bend spacetime. Good luck with that, by the way.)
Believe me, you do not want to consider the physics and visuals associated with FTL, especially because the sci-fi excuse is simpler for now.


I've brought up that information system change, I think I'm going to post a suggestion based on my ideas concerning information...real fun topic. Like that scanners/stealth thread a couple of weeks ago.
In case anyone's wondering, astrophysics is one of my favorite things to learn about/work with

 

[EricBlank]

Op's suggestion for redefining how a system is defined and galaxies generated is good. I would seriously prefer to see star systems developed as a sphere of x radius in sectors around a sector a star is placed in, rather than a series of cubes of sectors. It feels more natural, the game can probably handle not thinking about every adjacent cube of 16^3 sectors as a system and instead think in terms of spheres around stars determined by the star's described mass, right?

For purposes of stars being placed, you mentioned scenarios where more than two, or more than three stars are placed in the same area. There are a couple ways I can think of to handle the excess stars.

• you'll have to choose two (or three) of them to form the system.
• Replace some with planets.
• Delete some.
  
• if an excess star is small enough its sphere of influence would be mostly or entirely within the sphere of influence of the system as a whole, let it orbit the system as a planet would. (planets in this system would treat that object like a really, really hot and bright gas giant, right? It could also treat nearby objects as its "moons")
• if an excess star is just on the edge of a system, and its sphere of influence would be small anyway, downgrade it to a "brown dwarf" (a supergiant gaseous planet that could almost be a star, but isnt quite massive enough.) and bump it a little further out of the system. It could be later discovered in interstellar space by players, for fun and profit or whatever.
• Shove excess stars off somewhere else to form their own system if there's a void nearby within reasonable distance of other stars. Far off into intergalactic space, maybe, just for fun.
  
• Merge excess stars into the primary stars, combining their mass and expanding the system (maybe a bad idea, I can see that getting out of hand as more and more nearby stars need to be included in the new SOI and decisions have to be made regarding them as well)
• Simulate a violent merge event that blows everything up because physics. Form a "nebula" region instead with maybe rogue planetoids and asteroids, no stars.

 

[Ratchet Hundreda]

Let's not drag in Einstein's physics. We don't want to do the calculations (Mostly), schema probably doesn't want to do the calculations, so let's leave it to basic concepts.

Yes, of course that's why i said assuming the exsistance of magic pixie dusts and alike is necessary. If we would base space travel on real physics the biggest obstacle we would stumble into would be time delation. It's an effect which is impossible to replicate or modell in real-time multiplayer video games. It could be done in singleplayer thoe but depending on the complexity of the background the simulation could be so hard that today's PCs wouldn't be able to calculate it or would at least cause frame lags and such.

Gravity assists ONLY work traveling sublight. Why? Because we're working of the Star Wars theory of interdimensional hyperspace travel, or I assume we are, because translight/FTL is MESSY in our particular set of dimensions.

I know the easiest thing would be to base it on these interdimensional pixies like in Star Wars but that doesn't mean it has to work in the exact same way like it does there. SM is one of the first space game's which have the opportunity to stumble into a lot of areas conserning not just how space works but how would civilizations which are able to travel in space-time interact with each other which other games doesn't really cover all at once in such detail. There could be some cases where SM would step on new grounds. That's why thinking inventive is a good idea i believe. So why not mix elements from real physics with our pixie mechanics especially when it can bring up interesting mechanics in the game.

(I.e., bending-space-and-time messy. As in, physical impossibility, unless you bend spacetime. Good luck with that, by the way.)

Actually as i know there have been already cases where we could make particles travel in space time in unconventional ways even if only in a microscopic level it's proven that it's possible. That's why NASA is currently working on ways to bend space time in ways so it propels their crafts. One of the most popular idea which would be able to do this in theory is called the Alcubierre drive.

 

[Madman198237]

Yes, I know that it's possible.

I've seen the really fun science shows----I'm the astrophysics nerd. I really enjoy this stuff.

Yeah, I really enjoy being part of SM's development process. It's a science fiction SANDBOX! We can make it a science-based world full of all the sci-fi staples! Who doesn't want that?


(Can you tell that I'm loving the entire game yet?)

 

[Valiant70]

I can practically guarantee from Schema's comments that he won't do anything to make empty space more boring or annoying to fly through.

Bench , there's a planned tag, but does this just mean a rework is planned or that the removal of grid-bound star systems is planned? These tags are frequently slapped on without reading the thread these days.

 

[Bench]

I not sure who put it on, i'll have to have a read of the post and see if it's an appropriate tag

 

[Gonzalo]

my favorite part is the jump drive part, it would be so good. you could make it so that you go super far when traveelling in deep space, but if you are fighitn in someones system, it will take a lot longer (due to gravity) and will be balanced that way. if this was balanced correctly it phase out those so called "chain-drives"[/spoiler]

 

[jontyfreack]

I like the prospect of a trinary star system.

just imagine the cinematic value of that.

IMAGINE IT!

I also like the idea of gravity effecting jump drives, I think it would be a very good idea for the effect to scale with more gravity in the system. for instance a super giant star should make jumping very slow, a binary/trinary star system could change the distance of a jump drive depending on each stars orbital period. say if all the stars are closer to one side of the system, that will be a lot of interference with jump drives, but if all the stars are spread out across the system, that will not be quite as much interference.

im not the best at ideas.

 

[Ratchet Hundreda]

Yes, I know that it's possible.

I've seen the really fun science shows----I'm the astrophysics nerd. I really enjoy this stuff...

Ammm ... okay so yeah i guess i do enjoy playing with ideas like that ... maybe too much? I feel i didn't really managed to explain the point i wanted to make soooo ... my bad i guess. soz

(Note to self, never talk about things like this in your presence ever again becasue i love you too much for that <3 xoxo)

 

[Master_Artificer]

I would recommend reading some articles on Space.com, they take published papers and condense them into easy reading!

New Alien Planet Boasts Rare Triple Suns

Tatooine-Like Planets with 2 Suns Need Perfect Ingredients to Form

Basically its hard for planets to form and STAY around binary systems, but if they do it is because a lot of material was their to begin with.
(so you get a big system with a lot of planets). Either some asteroid belts and a dwarf planet or two, or you get lots of stuff.

 

[Madman198237]

Yeah---the more large bodies in a system, the crazier gravity-based interactions become, the fewer stable orbits there are, etc.

Just the formation of one Jupiter-size or larger gas giant that then travels inwards to the star (A "Hot Jupiter") will throw most, if not all, rocky planets out of a system.

Now imagine how crazy it gets if a small star starts whipping around (Relatively speaking) a much larger star....
The orbits would be insane.

 

[Master_Artificer]

Yeah---the more large bodies in a system, the crazier gravity-based interactions become, the fewer stable orbits there are, etc.

Just the formation of one Jupiter-size or larger gas giant that then travels inwards to the star (A "Hot Jupiter") will throw most, if not all, rocky planets out of a system.

Now imagine how crazy it gets if a small star starts whipping around (Relatively speaking) a much larger star....
The orbits would be insane.

That happens a lot actually. In fact their is even a known star within a star, as one is dying it expands (and loses basically all of its density) and when it entered its giant phase, the outer envelope had "engulfed" the other star.