First Impressions -> suggestions

[Zardox]

Started playing yesterday - yes, I know that is no time at all and I still don't have a full idea of how the game works... BUT I think first impressions count and if I wait a week I will forget my current feelings / thoughts.

Oh and I do realise the game is in ALPHA and that there are many planned features still to come - including some I will suggest... but as I say - need to get these thoughts down.



Most important point - Newtonian physics or not?

I have played I War with Newtonian physics and think it works great.... but it has to be done properly to be done well. It's great to be able to thrust in one direction... then drift and pivot on your axis and shoot... but a lot of players have trouble with it too.

This game seems to be going in the same direction except at present there is a speed limit of sorts?And it also seems that with enough thrusters even a monster of a ship can turn like a fighter?

I have read the suggestions of some kind of directional thruster requirement (calculated aroud the centre of mass?) > but maybe use mass squared times a factor? Maybe make this a server setting set by the Admin? So you could have a private server and turn this off to allow massive ships ---- or dial it right up to keep the ship size right down. And don't forget to factor in the mass of docked ships and turrets too!
(I will leave that there - for the math guys to think about)



Guns (and missiles)... bigger is better and faster?

My suggestion is to make bigger better...and slower. Should be easy enough to do?
Simply have gun recharge time = number of blocks x time factor

For example:
5 block gun recharge time = 5 x 0.1sec = 0.5 sec = 2 shots per second
100 block gun recharge time = 100 x 0.1 sec = 10 sec reload time
So, you can go with small rapid fire guns or large guns where you had better not miss!?
Shields would need looking at if this was done though?



Energy:

Maybe to prevent massive overgeneration have some kind of power overload penalty?
Perhaps causing intermittent short outs of computer modules?
Have some kind of 'compensator unit' but it should have mass (see above)



Navigation:

I am finding it to be a PITA (Pain in the...) at the moment.
I looked at the nav interface and it looks like much more is planned...

Then I thought why not give the player the ability to build Nav Beacons?
A beacon that can be detected and locked on to from a distance depending on type of beacon, power output and installed modules?
For example:
Broadcast a signal and the distace it can be detected is proportional to the generator output?
Broadcast a signal constantly (active)
Broadcast a signal in response to a 'ping' (passive)
Broadcast a signal in response to a coded ping (so it would only work if you knew the correct code). This would allow factions to drop nav beacons that only those in the faction could lock on to.
Sensor Beacons (as above) but would also detect and report certain events (for example a certain mass passing by within a certain radius?)
Lots of possibilities here.



Computer modules:Has the possibility of 'locking them' been considered? So that to access someone elses module would require some kind of "hacking" mini game?



Which leads to my final suggestion at this point:

How about different computer modules for everything?
You could even make them player designable (moddable?) maybe?

For example: A missile control system with a faster lock on... that costs more (and is harder to make)... but also doesn't like jamming?
Player choice is a slower (but more reliable) lock on... or a fast lock on that is prone to being lost or jammed?
And computer modules for everything;
Engine / thrust control
Shield Recharge
Power Generation
Targeting
Jamming
Anti Jamming
Radar
Navigation
Scanning (mass, power generation, light, momentum)
Firewall Module for anti hacking
Alarms (in response to hacking detection or scanner detections)
Diagnostics (returns status of object: power output, settings, etc - particularly useful for unmanned Beacons)
HUD

** I am not suggesting the basic functions should be removed from the Core Module - but I am suggesting that by installing other modules the performance could be improved?

The HUD modules are the ones I can see a lot of players designing themselves - allowing player made HUDs to be 'built' and sold in game.
For balance: you could for example have a great HUD that shows lots of information in great detail but is very expensive and only works with certain other modules (otherwise it doesn't have the required information) and has a high power use verses a cheap module that can only track (and display) one target at a time?

My suggestion to the Devs was that you could allow a Module design interface with sliders (to prevent players simply maxing everything out)



Ideas for Beacons / Scanners

For example I could build a beacon / scanner which detects
any mass over 10 blocks at 1000 metres (performance decays beyond that)
any object with momentum greater than 200 (blocks x m/s) at 1000 metres (performance decays beyond that)
Sends a response to a coded ping (faction signal in this case)
has an alarm module
has a basic firewall module
has a basic communications module attached to the alarm module



So, an enemy faction ship (100 blocks) zooms by at 30m/s at 1000m. This triggers the mass and momentum alarms.
But the communication module is the cheapest one I could buy.
So everyone in the faction gets: "Beacon #13 ALARM!" and that's all.

Not happy, I upgrade the communications module
Now we get "Beacon #13 has dectected an unknown mass. Beacon #13 has detected a high momentum object."

Upgrading further might give: "14:15:35 UT: Beacon #13 has dectected a mass of 100 at 1000m. 14:15:35 UT: Beacon #13 has detected a momentum of 3000t.m/s at 1000m"

The enemy locate the beacon and decide to hack it to change the settings. They approach slowly in a small ship (avoiding detection). They easily avoid the firewall (because I used a cheap one) and so I get no alarm. Etc.



Anyway...that's all for now.






Fun game though.... Lots and lots of potental here.

Edit: Oh and the block orientation interface is painful at the moment. I know thats on the 'to do' list though.

 

[Obama]

What bothers me is that most Suggestions can be done as mods, once Schema opens the source.

I don\'t really understand what\'s the point of all these suggestion topics, except maybe discuss future mods.

 

[Zardox]

Well, in theory, the whole game could have been done by someone else?

But the thing is - people don\'t.

Also, when playing it, one of the things that has struck me is that it would be very easy to completely stuff the balance up here?

So, get the framework and balance right from the beginning.

If a whole bunch of people make their own mods (which are incompatible with other mods that different people are working on) you end up with a fractured community and a game that is (and can only be) played on private servers... since the way the game works varies so much from mod to mod.



I didn\'t know that the developer planned to open the source?

If that\'s the plan, my question would be: \"Why?\"

I have seen worse games than this for sale.

Edit: This game is already Greenlit. where did you see the developer say they would release the source?

 

[ShallowShi]

Open it in the sense that Minecraft is open. This game is a self-admitted Minecraft clone, so why not open certain layers of the code to allow player-made mods once the core (i.e. Alpha stage) is finished?

 

[Zardox]

Fair point.

I do think it would be good to be able to create any object you want in this game... and some of the screenshots I have seen already are for very large ships.

This one for example http://star-made.org/comment/29197#comment-29197

Which is great.

But my point is that if you want to set up a PvP server and run a faction war - you need constraints to keep everyone on an \'even\' footing.

Those constraints might depend on the chosen style of the server.

Some servers might be for people who just want to build massive detailed models. They would be annoyed if they couldn\'t do so due to imposed rules of physics.

If it\'s a PvP server, the game needs constraints and a limit on what mods work and how. If the game simply becomes \"the biggest gun and the guy with the most wins\" then it becomes a real disincentive to play. Because if I join the server weeks or months after it starts I\'m just fodder and always will be.

And if it becomes \"the guy with the best mod wins\" - it will die a quick death too.

So, being able to set constraints on things like thrust vs mass effectiveness or gun reload / recharge times vs size of the gun would help to keep the game balanced?



I think we might be saying the same thing in different ways?

 

[Obama]

When I talk about mods, I mean server mods to make servers more customizable, not client-side cheat tools.

 

[SacredSkull]

You don\'t actually need to have open-source code to allow client or server side scripting. Minecraft isn\'t really open at all- the code is obfuscated to deter copies. People had to reverse engineer it and get a coding environment ready. Until the OFFICIAL API was released.. but that took so long.. I would hate to see a repeat of that. Game developers should really focus on getting an API working after the base has been set properly. Mojang kept on adding and adding, and people got fed up and had to hack their way through it. Argueably that results in a better community because of the effort that some individuals make (that the developer didn\'t) inspires others to create more.

So, in conclusion, open source isn\'t necessary- a modding or extensibility API is. Of course, this depends on the freedom that the developer gives. For example- if the API sucks, it will probably need to be reverse engineered. It has been done for many games many times. If you can\'t depend on the dev, depend on the community

 

[Zardox]

Been playing a bit longer now and a few things are making more sense.

Would still like to see the computer modules, beacons, and scanners ideas from my post and several others too.

http://star-made.org/content/how-about-proximity-alert

http://star-made.org/content/weapon-modifier-blocks

http://star-made.org/content/split-engines-different-types-different-effects-also-add-item-levelstiers

http://star-made.org/content/radar

http://star-made.org/content/buff-fighters



The map

It\'s not very user friendly. I would suggest that the number of the highlighted sector be easier to read.



All good.

My suggestion today is to do with the Dev suggestion of Critters... and a wreck of one of my first ships I found today crashed on a planet.

How about giving the players the ability to create (and save) scenarios? Up to and including whole system size?

For example - players must enter a system to locate the source of a distress beacon...

They locate a wreck on an arid planet...

They touch down to explore and find these strange cocoons...

I wonder how it will end? ;-)

 

[Zardox]

Ongoing impressions / suggestions:

Get rid of \"shops\". Put the shops in the friendly Space Stations. There are plenty around.

Navigation: the map needs work and a good tutorial to go with it (it takes a while to get used to).

It should be possible to click on an object on the map and get sector info and set it as a waypoint (from the map)

Still like the idea of being able to place unmanned beacons / sensors / scanners as per my first post.

Do the planets actually orbit? If so, a Nav computer block that can calculate orbits etc.



Planets: Need to stop people attacking / mining from underneath and from space - you should have to land to mine a planet.

Gravity needs to have some kind of effect... mostly to stop people hovering above them and bombarding them IMHO.

 

[z1967]

Your river of ideas is never ceasing it seems. I too would like the beacons. I operate a string of deep space turrets and it would be nice to know when someone runs into them. And an improved navigation system would be nice too, with maybe tiered nav computers to allow for some interesting combonations.

I also like your suggestion about planets. itis much too easy to pick ores off the bottom or attack from the bottom. sphereical planets and making ships orbit around planets would be really useful.

I would add an addition to the friendly space station/shops, hirable NPC\'s that you could give tasks, and a s long as you have money, you have a crew. this would add a whole new level to singleplayer.

all in all, this is a really good suggestion stream. I can\'t wait to hear more suggestions and hopefully a response from schema or beetlebear.

 

[Zardox]

Looking at the game it seems that they are still in an early stage of getting their ideas to work?

The game is playable, and fun... but wouldn\'t survive as a multiplayer game with the current AMC issues.

I can see the issue with spherical planets - but the \'discs\' come with their own unique problems... I fell off a planet twice today while jumping around.

 

[Zardox]

I was looking at ships and ship designs yesterday (mine and other peoples) and thought about how different some of the play styles were.

But, if all servers were set up the same play would trend toward the same style of ship everwhere.

So as part of server set up I would suggest the option to limit the number of each type of block per ship / structure



For example

Mass (total)

Plexiglass (or maybe express this as a percentage of total blocks in the design to prevent \'all plexigalss ships? Since plexiglass twice as strong as regular hull plates)

Hardened Hull

Power Core

Coil Thruster

Turret Docking unit

SD shield disperser

0C Cloaker

Antimatter cannon (total)

Antimatter cannon (max size)

SD-BB missile arrray (total)

SD-BB missile arrray (max size)

SD-KB missile arrray (total)

SD-KB missile arrray (max size)

D1000 missile array (total)

D1000 missile array (max size)

etc... you get the idea.



What does this do?

It allows players to set rules on each server which would lead to new and different play styles - that in turn would lead to players designing new and different ship types for each server to work within each set of rules.

For the example above players would be limited to small ships (1000 blocks per ship) and small missiles.

They could use smaller guns, turrets and rockets (D1000). They could also use shields ... but not cloakers or armoured hulls.

So - what I have set up here is a fighter dogfighting server.



Setting up a server like this:

Mass (total)

Plexiglass (or maybe express this as a percentage of total blocks in the design to prevent \'all plexigalss ships? Since plexiglass twice as strong as regular hull plates)

Hardened Hull

Power Core

Coil Thruster

Turret Docking unit

SD shield disperser

0C Cloaker

Antimatter cannon (total)

Antimatter cannon (max size)

SD-BB missile arrray (total)

SD-BB missile arrray (max size)

SD-KB missile arrray (total)

SD-KB missile arrray (max size)

D1000 missile array (total)

D1000 missile array (max size)

Creates a \'capital ship\' server - encouraging ships with lots of turrets. Ships can be armoured and cloaked - but not shielded. Big guns allowed but small rockets only.



Players joining a server would be able to review the settings prior to joining to see if it would match their playstyle. Could make for more varied gameplay long term?

 

[Zardox]

And based on the above also limit restrict mining / scrapping and buying of models and advanced build options

For example

Salvage Cannon (total)

Salvage Cannon (max size)

Astro technobeam (total)

Astro technobeam (max size)

Build menu blocks (limit to) X
Y
Z

Purchase cost modifier



So what does all this do?

Effectively, it throttles building and can encourage players to repair ships rather than scrapping them and buying a new one.

(This is what I do... and I know several of you do the same!)

This would also change the way the game would be played - particularly on \'capital ship servers\' - becuase damaged ships would be put out of action for repairs rather than immediately being able to return to the action (By being scrapped and rebrought). It would also change ship design on those servers - because ships would be built for repair with access corridors etc.



Please note: I am NOT suggesting these rules (like this) should be applied to every server. But I am suggesting that it should be possible to set up servers this way if players want to.

In some cases players might want to have a WH40K style server (for example) with only certain types of technology that encourage players to build huge ships and engage in broadside type battles, retreating to repair ships (which could take hours).

On other servers players might just want to have quick fights and if they are destroyed simply buy a new ship and immediately get back in the fight.

It would be nice to have the choice.

 

[Alviss]

\"balance right from the beginning.\"

Thats literally impossible. Everytime you add a new feature, you debalance other features. It\'s also impossible to have something right 100% before you release it. Thats the point of you guys playing right now. To play the game and report back, then schema makes changes based on your experience. Beta and Alpha literally means work in progress, you cant expect anything, ANYTHING to be balanced at all until full release (v 1.0) and even then it will have it\'s glitches.

The only reason any game lets people play the game before it\'s released, and i mean RELEASED, is to have ready and willing bug crushing. So the end product is more likely to be balanced.

@shallow

Because hes trying to get the framework and infrastructure down. Whats the point in writing a mod when an update that will completely change, and often times, render a mod pointless, comes out every 3 days?

 

[Zardox]

And thinking more on these suggestions (last 2 posts) how about Assymetric servers?

This would allow people to choose different sides / races / realms an gain different \'skills\'

Yes, it would be unbalanced - but that\'s the idea.



Why?

Suppose I want to set up a server with one force having guns and shields vs another force with missiles and armour?



It could work like this

                                 Base Settings / Force 1 / Force 2 / Force 3

                                                [_]                [X]            [X]           [X]

Force name                                                [Asp]         [Boa]       [Cobra]

Mass (total   )                                                 

Standard Hull                                                  

Plexiglass                                                             

Hardened Hull                                                       

Power Core                                                    

Coil Thruster                                                   

Turret Docking unit                                                       

SD shield disperser                                             

0C Cloaker                                                                  

Antimatter cannon (total)                                    

Antimatter cannon (max size)                                

SD-BB missile arrray (total)                                    

SD-BB missile arrray (max size)                                 

SD-KB missile arrray (total)                                     

SD-KB missile arrray (max size)                                  

D1000 missile array (total)                                           

D1000 missile array (max size)                                    

Salvage Cannon (total)                                           

Salvage Cannon (max size)                                        

Astro technobeam (total)                                        

Astro technobeam (max size)                                    

Purchase cost modifier                                      

[code]

So, on this server the Admin has set up three \'races\'(?)

The Asps: who are very reliant on missiles and shields.  But their ships are weak when the shields are removed.  Often with even essential systems exposed.However, they are good at making repairs to and their mining ships are powerful.  The only race that can cloak.

The Boa.  Not as advanced - their missiles are less powerful and their ships are often slower.  Although their ships are bigger too and better protected.  Their guns are also extremely powerful.

The Cobras: Rely on armour.  However they have no seeking missiles or shields.  They can use turrets and powerful guns but their ships are the slowest.  However, they are also cheap.  Cobras rarely bother to repair a damaged ship - simply scrapping them and crewing a new one.



As for how players would choose a \'race\'?

Maybe it could be linked to a faction?  Or maybe they have to do it when they first create a character on a server?  Lots of possibilities.



That\'s the idea anyway.  Allowing players to set up servers the way they want to encourage players to play certain scenarios.

Of course none of this is essential.  Servers could be set up in default modes (vanilla).

 

[Zardox]

Been doing a lot of building today



The Plex Door : Can we have a Plex Door Wedge please?

 

[Zardox]

And the ability to somehow add notes to the map?