Fake Complexity/Additional Weapon System

[Zone1135]

First things first, this is more of a discussion on game mechanics then a specific suggestion. But could eventually bring some useful suggestions so I'm leaving it here.

This game has complexity in it, that is true. The generators are a good example of this, using interesting math to force some creative designs, kinda. Weapon systems also have some complexity, allowing you to blend them with other systems and effects.

Here is my argument. These various systems don't actually encourage complex or intelligent design. On big ships, generators are just spammed, on smaller ships having them in long strips is pretty effective. While their are several weapon systems, I doubt many are used. Their seem to be 3 or 4 combinations which are generally considered by the community to be the 'best' set up and most ships use them. Shields, even though they have diminishing ratios, generally just involve spamming shield blocks until they reach a value they like.

One of my favorite parts about games is their complexity. For example (ugh, I hate using this as an example) I used to play modded Minecraft and the most rewarding part about that was building factories. Having to make big complex factories and manage the amount of stuff going in to avoid overflow, having systems to deal with overflow that might occur by accident. Having systems that shutdown parts of the factory in certain dangerous situations, just having to spend 10-20 minutes planning out how I would make it in my head. StarMade, while on the surface seeming complex, to me at least lacks this complexity once you get deeper into the game.

I mainly want to see what other people think of this, but I do have a rough idea as an example.

Spoiler: Idea

First ditch the entire current weapon system, then make the weapons themselves require construction. (I'll be using the actual parts needed to build a laser in real life in this example, the parts could be 'gameified' if they were actually implemented)

Lets say you want to build a laser, first you might need to place some form of 'light source' near a 'crystal' which would have to be roughly the same size as each other.

Then two reflective surfaces would need to be made. One completely reflective one and one semi reflective one (this would be where the laser exits). Their size would need to match that of the laser medium otherwise you would either be wasting room or damaging the weapon.

Finally you would need to in case the whole thing in some form of shielding (no good if the light can get out) and attach some form of radiators to the side, these radiators would determine how long you could fire your laser before it overheats and need to cool-down.

Then you could go a step further and attach lenses to the front, certain lenses would focus the damage closer, allowing for short range fire. While others would focus it into the distance, but because of the way that works, would lower or spread out the damage on anything close range. (People could intentionally use their laser out of focus to get a spread effect like that.)

Even further you could allow blocks that customize the power input, have a block that constantly supplies power to the laser allowing for sustained fire. Or in front of that block place capacitors and charge up your laser for a high power burst.

If capacitors were used the strength of the laser might be determined by your radiators ability to dissipate the heat. Not enough radiators and charging up too long could cause damage. Meaning you would need to work out how much your willing to push your weapons (also allows for single shot doomsday weapons, where the damage output is huge because the weapon completely destroys itself).

EDIT FOR CLARITY: The idea doesn't specifically need to be a change to the weapon system, was just using it as an example of complexity. Other things could be improved, maybe the way we generate and use power (through some sort of wiring/routing system) or maybe the way thrusters work.

Thank you to anyone who read all that, free cookie to you.

Please tell me your thoughts and possible arguments/improvements for or against the idea. (I already know implementation would be hard.)

(Where I got info on lasers http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Lasercons.svg )

 

[Commodore]

That is an interesting suggestion, it would add a whole new level to construction. I'm guessing weapons would be highly customizable by changing the shapes/ratios of the blocks. The copy-paste function would prevent it getting tedious on big ships.

However I don't think it is the direction that Starmade is going. Most new players are already overwhelmed by the existing mechanics and the recent changes to crafting for example, have made things simpler, probably to appeal to more people.

Edit: We have also gone from systems with scaling formulas, old AMCs for example, to having most systems operate linearly. I think more people want to make pretty looking hulls and fill them up than those who want to put systems in lines/cross shapes etc.

 

[jath]

Make a mod for this. I don't think it's good for vanilla, but a mod that does this and changes crafting to use real metals and minerals instead of what they made up would be a very popular download.

 

[alpha123]

interesting, however, the weapons system is fairly new, and people just get sick of having to refit all of their ships so... cool idea but probably won't happen

 

[AtraUnam]

Maybe not this but some optional way to increase complexity would be nice. Perhaps some different muzzles that could be placed on the output block of a weapon group, here are some examples:

• Different lenses for lasers, like you suggested, which un-focus the beam to various degrees.
• Higher and lower bore barrels for AMCs which increase range and decrease damage, or vice versa (at diminishing returns)
• Multi tubed outputs for missile launchers which increase the number of projectiles but slightly decrease overall damage.
• Different (cores? focuses?) for pulses which would function similarly to the AMC barrels.

Other ways to increase weapons customization which wouldn't require more blocks would be to bring back the tweak menu which could include options such as:

• Salvo size, multiplies the reload time by X but also fires X projectiles at once.
• Burst size, similar to salvo size only the projectiles are fired one after the other instead of all at once.
  These two could stack but do you really want to increase your reload time that much? could be good for slow firing doomsday cannons though.
• Reload, artificially extend your reload time. May be useful when a ship your building for someone else needs more time to recover from firing a weapon, or for RP reasons.

Best part is that none of this would force people to refit their ships.

 

[Zone1135]

The construction system could be added on top of the current system. Allowing people to re-fit their ships if they want to. Also I edited the OP to make it clear that I'm also up for ways of making non-weapon based complexity. I used energy management and thrust management as an example.

A few of the ideas I had come from things like Space Engineers. Since due to the physics in that game players can design weapons capable of things the devs for that game may never have expected. While StarMade has some cool features (my favorite currently is warp gates) it seems to be far more focused on the aesthetic sides of things with combat as a side thought.

I would love to be able to design some crazy weapon that I can use in combat to gain an advantage, instead of losing because I just didn't have as many missile blocks as they did. Basically shifting winning from a "who has the bigger ship" to "who has the smarter ship". (Just to be clear, this isn't a 'small ships need a buff' argument.)

EDIT: While I can also understand people not wanting to refit their ships. This game is in alpha and they can't not expect game changing updates to happen from time to time if it makes the game better overall. Hindering development just to keep your ships functioning the way they do doesn't seem like a good plan overall.

 

[DivineEvil]

Personally I'm all for complex mechanics affecting different systems. Way back before forums had present look and form, I as many other long-term members had suggestions for Controller-Module extension of shield system, weapon dimensions affecting its stats, directional thrusters, etc.

Unfortunately, Starmade has a relatively small audience, and every step towards complexity can diminish it even further. Many new members are younger than 16, and can have a difficulty understanding even basic mechanics of power generators (seriously, I have to describe the method it works three times to the same person sometimes), weapon and factory linking, blueprints, efficient salvage systems and so on. Taking on something as complex as multi-component assembly is a ridiculous risk of warding-off any potential players and losing some of the existing ones, while making remaining players overburdened by activities far away from conventional fighting and mining. Anyone with relatively small game time would simply see the game as too time consuming in general.

 

[jayman38]

I think a weapon complexity mod would be very neat. I already had some ideas for it.

1: mirrors (only one type: gamified: handwaved by saying that reflectivity is altered as necessary when the block is placed)
2. amplifiers (maybe use pulse weapon blocks or computers)
3. accelerators (maybe use cannon blocks)
4. concentrators (maybe use beam blocks)
5. dimagnetic supercolliders (maybe use plex lift)
6. collectors (maybe use cameras)
7. spinners
8. nanoreplicators (maybe use factory blocks)
9. EM emitters (maybe use faction permission blocks)
0. Empty Space
L: Light block (color of your choice)
C: weapon computer (maybe use pulse weapon computer; unifies the blocks into a single weapon group using the existing C-V master-slave game mechanic.)

Particle Cannon:
4530354
~~~~~~~ (variable constrictor barrel length: adds range with a soft cap)
4530354
2350532
2235322
2223222
~~~~~~~ (variable accelerator length: adds damage)
2223222

Small Laser:
212
L4L
~~~ (variable crystal exciter length: adds damage)
L4L
212

Large Laser:
21112
L444L
~~~~~ (variable crystal exciter length: adds damage)
L444L
21112
22222

Rail Gun:
2530352
~~~~~~~ (variable accelerator barrel length: adds payload speed and damage with a soft cap)
2530352
2370732
2283822
~~~~~~~ (variable payload factory length: faster reload with a hard cap; can only fire so fast)
2283822

In general, assuming the above orientations represent the X and Z axes, the "Y" axis could probably also increase damage. (Example: stacking two sets of the "Small Laser" layout, one on top of the other, would give twice the damage output, as if you had doubled the crystal exciter length.

As a matter of fact, you could probably split the component grouping up into another level, so that you can combine different subgroups into new, different weapons.
Examples of subgroups from above: payload factory, crystal exciter, accelerator barrel, etc.

 

[Mr. V]

I like the idea of adding optional complexity into the existing weapon system (and possibly other areas as well). The suggestions of AtraUnum and revised suggestion of Zone 1135 to make something that doesn't obsolete current builds while providing the option of going further in depth for custom modifications to systems seems like something that would add greatly to the game.

It's good to have complexity when you want it in a game like this, but it should be something that the player can choose not to delve into it. To me one of the major things that has proven beautiful about both StarMade and Minecraft is that careful balance that keeps the game fairly simple but provides the means to make it much more complex, if desired by the individual player.

I think it would be awesome to have additional ways to customize ship systems - the newer weapon systems provide a lot of tradeoffs that encourage players to choose to focus on certain specialties when designing a weapon.

It would also be nice if there were some more modifications possible that catered towards further customizing the output on larger builds that don't necessarily make them more or less functional, but cater towards personal preferences - this would avoid everyone picking the same styles and hopefully result in more unique employments of weapon types. There could also possibly be modification that were relatively simple to apply (such as attaching a single computer without modules or a very small number of modules for a given form of change to how a weapon outputs - it's becoming a little burdensome building massive amounts of space into ship design for extensive primary/slave/effect modules ).

 

[Zone1135]

A benefit to this system could be there would only need to be 3 main weapons. Lasers, projectile weapons (similar to rail guns) and missiles. Personally I believe that the projectile based weapons should consume ammo but have far more damage compared to their non-ammo consuming counterparts. While adding complexity to the first to would be relatively straight forward, to add the same complexity to missile systems it would likely be needed to allow players to actually "build" the missile, since the launchers aren't really complex. This would allow things like payload and size to be determined by the player based on expense and how much room they have to store the ammo.

I think Mr. V has a point. If this system is introduced, it should be an an optional system and not a replacement for the current one.

Also, as a compromise. There could be a factory block added that allows you to create bullets from resources in a storage. This would allow you, given sufficient resources, to replenish your ammo storage over time. But I believe the ammo should also take up physical space on your ship. This would set a soft limit to the amount of ammo a ship could store based on the ships desired caliber. Although I'm conflicted if such a block should be allowed to be placed on a ship. Would give a cool use for factories.