Factions Redefined

[Arcaner]

Spoiler

This is a *much* improved version of my previous thread .A case study in factions- The solution to everything . I read through all the posts and saw the different opinions people gave. From what I understand, there are two main things going on here. People want an invulnerable base. A place they can call home and dock one ship to. And then there are factions. These are two VERY separate things. This improved suggestion will (hopefully) not be unfair towards the lone ranger and builder styles.

I now understand that with the System Ownership Ideas I mentioned, the game would quickly turn into a battle for spam stations. Also, that players need to have at least one station they can call home. Some level of invincibility has to be present.

I had to make a new thread for a variety of reasons- this idea is different. The older thread was becoming increasingly aggressive, a battleground of sorts. Also, I partly understood it's bias against PvE.

Thanks to insightful posts (and conversations with) by Ithirahad , GnomeKing , kulbolen , Dr. Whammy RedAlert_007 , Lecic, Coyote27 , Antikristianos, Snowtiger256, Zoolimar
not necessarily in that order.

The suggestion in short;

• Every (non factioned and factioned) player gets to set an invulnerable "HOME" station somewhere in the universe. This station *cannot* claim the system. All weapon systems are deactivated when docked to HOME. Only that player can use doors, switches, logic etc. It simply is - a home. Eliminates the need to create one man factions for having a Homebase.

• Factions can be created the same way as current.

• Factions have set number of FP in the start. (Say "p")

• FP decrease the longer people play. Ten minutes playing will mean a configured FP decrease.

• FP increase if- you mine (set FP per 1000 ores and shards mined), manufacture ( double as above set FP per 1000 ores and shard equivalents consumed), you fight against enemy factions and enemy factions ALONE (set FP increase per 1000 mass damage done), your shop sells stuff to other factions (set FP increase per 10,000 credits gained by shop).

• Certain amount of FP present with a faction will translate to a set number of invulnerable stations owned. That is, if you have X FP then you can set any ONE station invulnerable. If you have 2X FP then you can set two invulnerable, and so on.

• System ownership- as it currently is. (Although I can't help getting excited at the thought of partial ownership because its much more realistic that way...)

• Also, p<X. This will destroy creation of alt accounts dimplt to create one man factions and claiming systems near your enemies for strategy.

• FP is going to be a largely stable value, not increasing or decreasing much over time (opposite of the stock market). Ideally, FP gain values have to be adjusted so that stuff like one faction suddenly gaining two invincible home bases overnight is not a thing. It should take AT LEAST 5 days to earn an invincible station, that too with hard work and dedication. System ownership is meant to be aggressive - you have to show that you really OWN the system.

• The faction notification panel will display net FP gain or loss due to a player everytime he/she logs off. For eg,

"FP gain of 12 by Arcaner. Playtime= -3. Mining=+8. Battle=+7"

This would add what is needed yet not seen in games-friendly competition WITHIN the faction, a kind of personal reputation for increasing FP.

Also,
Manufacturing bonus is attributed to the station:

"Manufacturing bonus due to StationAlpha =+9"

This would not favor factions with more members because although the FP gain over a period of time is more, for loss is more too.
That being said, it is still better to be in a slightly larger faction (as it should be) if only for the fact that FP values are more stabilized, i.e, even if you don't do anything for a week, there are other players doing stuff which more or less maintains the FPs, whereas such a thing is simply not possible in a small 3 man faction.

Additionally, keep in mind that fleets would also generate FPs in battle encounters. This would be calculated the same way as for player battles. (Because same amount of risks). But, fleet mining would not generate any FP, to eliminate obvious exploits.

 

[NeonSturm]

How about giving stations different types and different FP drain rate?

1. Gate stations can only have gate computers, gate modules, power regen and power cap.
   • along and hull/armor blocks and decorative such as terrain, minerals, but other functional blocks excluded.
2. Trade stations with storage and shops.
3. Mining stations with only refinery and scrapper.
   
4. Factory stations with neither refinery nor scrapper.

The more categories a station fills, the more FP are drained?
This could divert ships to different sectors and make less LAG at the home base without forcing something.
(A Gate/Trade/Mining/Factory-Home would drain equally as 4 different stations).

Actually each controller could drain FP

 

[nogg]

How about giving stations different types and different FP drain rate?

1. Gate stations can only have gate computers, gate modules, power regen and power cap.
   • along and hull/armor blocks and decorative such as terrain, minerals, but other functional blocks excluded.
2. Trade stations with storage and shops.
3. Mining stations with only refinery and scrapper.
   
4. Factory stations with neither refinery nor scrapper.

The more categories a station fills, the more FP are drained?
This could divert ships to different sectors and make less LAG at the home base without forcing something.
(A Gate/Trade/Mining/Factory-Home would drain equally as 4 different stations).

Actually each controller could drain FP

I have never been a fan of the multipurpose stations, and I think that this could work. but a multitype station should not be equal to 4 individual use stations. for each function a station holds the FP drain could double... a 4 function station should drain 4 times the FP then the 4 individual stations would.

 

[Coyote27]

Or, to put things in alternate but equivalent terms, factions could be divided into companies and countries which behave differently from each other and operate at different scales. Countries depend more on faction points and can claim territory (in fact, should benefit from doing so) and should perhaps have more political and diplomatic power; companies operate independent of territories but still have a protected homebase somewhere, and possibly, to make up for not getting the mining bonus of an owned system they can get half that bonus anywhere.
Server settings could determine the minimum and maximum number of players for each of these faction types - for example, a company might be set to have a minimum of one player and a maximum of three, a country a minimum of three and a maximum of twenty.
There could be other server-configurable rules for how the two operate, as well, though I'm not sure what rules people would want to see here.

 

[NeonSturm]

Or, to put things in alternate but equivalent terms, factions could be divided into companies and countries which behave differently from each other and operate at different scales. Countries depend more on faction points and can claim territory (in fact, should benefit from doing so) and should perhaps have more political and diplomatic power; companies operate independent of territories but still have a protected homebase somewhere, and possibly, to make up for not getting the mining bonus of an owned system they can get half that bonus anywhere.
Server settings could determine the minimum and maximum number of players for each of these faction types - for example, a company might be set to have a minimum of one player and a maximum of three, a country a minimum of three and a maximum of twenty.
There could be other server-configurable rules for how the two operate, as well, though I'm not sure what rules people would want to see here.

I like that, but if we go further in this thought:

Perhaps we could have groups where you can join multiple at once.
You could join someone's friend-club and be a 1st-rank friend (so you get same rights on structures as a 1st-rank faction-member on his structures unless we get a reworked public-permission block where public is r5 and friends are r1-r4).

I think for each player there could be a group after his name and a faction would be the followership and chat-channel of someone's group.
But which group channel is the main faction channel then?

The company or country would have the chat channel of the founder. The first member.
Until the group becomes a country or company with an own channel.
​

Perhaps, we could make not a station but stations in a system invincible for the same FP cost to reduce lag by spreading assets over multiple sectors.
We have a 600k blocks station and some ships docked and I get 1 FPS.

 

[Mortiferum]

Have an idea for exploiting it.

Set homebase docking permission so that anyone can dock using an alt faction.

Dock your shit to said alt faction's homebase for invincibility.

Never log in your alt, thus never needing to gain more points and so you have an invincible homebase forever.

Or get alt to buy your home base's shops item, then return item to shop, cash to alt and repeat for as long as needed for infinite FPs. Creating an alt faction with an invincible homebase has never been easier.

Or another method to grief. Set invinci stations around someone else's home station, and home base in a secluded and safe area. The safe area will have the shop, alts who buy from shop to replenish FP. This can be done in total safety.

For the totally rich people, making alts fly some moving hulk then blasting the crap outof it also works, all those stone, dirt and crap you get from mining planets will become a LP farm.

Sorry for tearing into your ideas, whatever can be exploited. WILL be exploited.

 

[NeonSturm]

Have an idea for exploiting it.

1. Set homebase docking permission so that anyone can dock using an alt faction.
2. Dock your shit to said alt faction's homebase for invincibility.
3. Never log in your alt, thus never needing to gain more points and so you have an invincible homebase forever.
4. Or get alt to buy your home base's shops item, then return item to shop, cash to alt and repeat for as long as needed for infinite FPs. Creating an alt faction with an invincible homebase has never been easier.
5. Or another method to grief. Set invinci stations around someone else's home station, and home base in a secluded and safe area. The safe area will have the shop, alts who buy from shop to replenish FP. This can be done in total safety.
6. For the totally rich people, making alts fly some moving hulk then blasting the crap outof it also works, all those stone, dirt and crap you get from mining planets will become a LP farm.

Sorry for tearing into your ideas, whatever can be exploited. WILL be exploited.

My answers:

1. Already possible.
2. Maybe make it so that Docks costs FP depending on the size that can dock (enhancers).
3. The station could disappear temporarily undocking all stuff if the faction members never log in.
4. Packet tracer XD. But seriously, there could be a cap to this (x FP per player selling per week).
5. Already possible. 1 man faction, jump inhibitor homebase ... but you'll need 14 stations for it.
6. Isn'T mining a desired way to get FP?

 

[Arcaner]

Thoughtful arguments, can't say I didn't think of a few myself.

My solutions:

Set homebase docking permission so that anyone can dock using an alt faction.

Dock your shit to said alt faction's homebase for invincibility.

Never log in your alt, thus never needing to gain more points and so you have an invincible homebase forever.

Let us say that a single player somehow is able to earn enough FP to create an invulnerable base. (This is meant to be hard, remember?) What exactly is stopping any other space faring player from docking there too? The way I see it, enemy factions will dock there too, starting a station war, which could get quite interesting...

Or get alt to buy your home base's shops item, then return item to shop, cash to alt and repeat for as long as needed for infinite FPs. Creating an alt faction with an invincible homebase has never been easier.

Agree on this one.
Solution: Remove FP gain from shops.

Or another method to grief. Set invinci stations around someone else's home station, and home base in a secluded and safe area. The safe area will have the shop, alts who buy from shop to replenish FP. This can be done in total safety.

Above said will nullify.

For the totally rich people, making alts fly some moving hulk then blasting the crap outof it also works, all those stone, dirt and crap you get from mining planets will become a LP farm.

Alt accounts will spawn with limited credits and hull. What will you do? Play with them until you can afford a big ship which you will later blast with your actual account? You are better off spending the same time on your original account playing. Oh, so you'll make many alt accounts, huh? How many CAN you make? I'd say any sane person would cap at 20. Max 40. (I say sane. That gives me the right to ignore Vaygr :P )
About the other part, Mining is intended to be giving FP gains. If you mine a lot, you'll gain a lot of FP. How is this an exploit? Needless to say you can't be mining your whole life...

Edit: Oh, I see in the given time Neon already answered.

 

[GnomeKing]

a quick thought, thinking in terms of companies and spending faction points to gain things, rather than just to maintain things :

'faction points' or other exchange can purchase/sell claimed systems - 'real estate' > an explorer in a very heterogeneous resource universe can then have viable route to profit through selling claims perhaps...

(aggressive take over still possible through war/destruction of stations --well loss of others ownership anyway i suppose)

 

[Mortiferum]

Thoughtful suggestions, can't say I didn't think of a few myself.

My solutions:


Let us say that a single player somehow is able to earn enough FP to create an invulnerable base. (This is meant to be hard, remember?) WHAT IS STOPPING ANY OTHER SPACE FARING PLAYER FROM DOCKING THERE TOO? ENEMY FACTIONS WILL DOCK THERE TOO, starting a station war. Would you really want that? No.

Agree on this one.
Solution: Remove FP gain from shops.

Above said will nullify.

Alt accounts will spawn with limited credits and hull. What will you do? Play with them untill you can afford a big ship which you will later blast with your actual account? YOU ARE BETTER OFF SPENDING THE SAME TIME ON YOUR ORIGINAL ACCOUNT PLAYING. Oh, so you'll make many alt accounts, huh? How many CAN you make? I'd say any sane person would cap at 20. Max 40. (I say sane. That gives me the right to ignore Vaygr :P )
About the other part, Mining is intended to be giving FP gains. If you mine a lot, you'll gain a lot of FP. How is this an exploit? Needless to say you can't be mining your whole life...

Edit: Oh, I see in the given time Neon already answered.

1) It is called a dock blocker, made of 1 core, 1 docker, 1 faction module to block off the unused dock. There is also the option of not having 500 dock and 1 ship, but rather, 1 ship, 2 dock, 1 dock blocker for when your 2nd ship is ready.

2) Limited credits and hull? What about byproduct from planet mining? What is stopping me from making a ship literally out of stone and dirt and pewpewing at it for free FP?

I am definitely better off shooting the crap out of a hunk of rock rather than throwing it out, since by product and all. 1 alt account is all you need, since all you need is one pilot in a planetary crap boat made up of planet surface, and if you are extra rich, scrap metal/ equivalent from making capsules.

Then the issue is also raised whether the game can distinguish between rocks being shot or hull being shot, obvious combat should bring FP but if I can shoot a floating, manned asteroid and get my FP I have no reason whatsoever to do anything else.

If you say then make it so shields need to be shot and damage for FP, I would simply move the shield 300m above the "asteroid" to be shot with minimum regen but max reasonable shield cap so as to shoot the shields from 100-0, the destroy the "asteroid", then salvage the shield module and repeat.

3) Mining also gives FP, the average miner is around 50x50-100x100, 1 click to sweep a planet and the idea is you earn so much FP that you last such a long period that it might as well be "forever". Should mining earn FP? Sure, but how much is enough to make it so the progess of time could reduce it rather than "we are draining half a drop of water from the pacific every 50 years".

Suggestion is interesting, but might need more work? And this was what, 20 seconds of me, a potato running thru ideas on how to exploit the crap out of it?

 

[Arcaner]

1) It is called a dock blocker, made of 1 core, 1 docker, 1 faction module to block off the unused dock. There is also the option of not having 500 dock and 1 ship, but rather, 1 ship, 2 dock, 1 dock blocker for when your 2nd ship is ready.

2) Limited credits and hull? What about byproduct from planet mining? What is stopping me from making a ship literally out of stone and dirt and pewpewing at it for free FP?

I am definitely better off shooting the crap out of a hunk of rock rather than throwing it out, since by product and all. 1 alt account is all you need, since all you need is one pilot in a planetary crap boat made up of planet surface, and if you are extra rich, scrap metal/ equivalent from making capsules.

Then the issue is also raised whether the game can distinguish between rocks being shot or hull being shot, obvious combat should bring FP but if I can shoot a floating, manned asteroid and get my FP I have no reason whatsoever to do anything else.

If you say then make it so shields need to be shot and damage for FP, I would simply move the shield 300m above the "asteroid" to be shot with minimum regen but max reasonable shield cap so as to shoot the shields from 100-0, the destroy the "asteroid", then salvage the shield module and repeat.

3) Mining also gives FP, the average miner is around 50x50-100x100, 1 click to sweep a planet and the idea is you earn so much FP that you last such a long period that it might as well be "forever". Should mining earn FP? Sure, but how much is enough to make it so the progess of time could reduce it rather than "we are draining half a drop of water from the pacific every 50 years".

Suggestion is interesting, but might need more work? And this was what, 20 seconds of me, a potato running thru ideas on how to exploit the crap out of it?

People already have a safe place to dock - their home station. But AI remains inactive there. The only reason people would want home bases is for the mining bonus and navigation bonus and territory gain and common storage. None of which are available using your method of "exploit"

Basically its pretty much useless to do that. (Not to mention the lack of respect a faction with low FP will have- and we both know how seriously factions take honor). Secondly, about how the system will differentiate between an armored hull and a piece of crap- I don't think you understood my post clearly enough- damage translates to FP, not blocks. Lastly, about the mining bonuses, it's just a scale balance. Apart from the fact that servers can tweak these gains, in general, it is intended to be so hard that for any non worthless FP gain, you will have to do a LOT of stuff. You can only do one thing (if you want FP maximized) at a time. Either mine only or fight only. But do it a lot.

This doesn't mean you are being restricted. Do as you wish if you are not in a faction. If you ARE in a faction, you have to work hard to prove yourself-The notice board displays your days earnings remember?

Finally, I'd like to say that that was some good criticism - it helped clarify a lot of points I didn't mention in the original thread.

 

[petlahk]

It's a silly idea to allow all players to have an invulnerable home and for factions to create more. If anything, the invulnerable home should be removed, not increased. Even with your system of the home bases only being bases with things to dock, the idea that every player and faction could have a potentially infinite number of invulnerable bases would completely break any and all PVP and faction conflict. Even the limited scenarios under which we see PVP and faction conflict already. I tend to resent people who make arguments for the sake of PVP and balance in that sense, as I think that there is more to the game than just PVP. PVE, and just sheer building and creativity are necessary to this game, and each need to be developed more in their own rights. However, what you are proposing here would be a permanent change to the game. It would be a change to the game that makes no sense and adds nothing to PVP and factions. If you want saftey and security then go play on a server that either is PVE only, or that checks the box for all stations being invulnerable.

I hope I haven't come off too strongly. I do truly wish you and everyone the best. Happy holidays!

 

[Zoolimar]

I SAID "DAMAGE". The system already measures damage in battles (as it should, lol). An armored hull needs way more damagage dealt to it than dirt. More damage=more FP gain.

More FP gain per shot / engagement, but not per time. With dirt I don't need to risk getting shot back and can arrange it when I want it. It's a by-product of mining which everyone will do to some extent so it's more or less free FP. It takes as much time as you need to throw a dirt asteroid together and shoot at it.

Lastly, about the mining bonuses, it's just a scale balance. Apart from the fact that servers can tweak these gains, in general, it is intended to be so hard that for any non worthless FP gain, you will have to do a LOT of stuff. You can only do one thing (if you want FP maximised) at a time. Either mine only or fight only. But do it a lot.

This doesn't mean you are being restricted. Do as you wish if you are not in a faction. If you ARE in a faction, you have to work hard to prove yourself-The notice board displays your days earnings remember?

And this all just encourages grinding. Considering that large miners could gobble up whole asteroids it will be probably set so low that anyone who wants to start a faction and doesn't have a big miner will be screwed beyond any hope.

 

[NeonSturm]

People already have a safe place to dock - their home station. But AI remains inactive there. The only reason people would want home bases is for the mining bonus and navigation bonus and territory gain and common storage.

Can you make a warhead bomb which damages a ship after it undocks? if yes, than what safety are you talking about

BTW: I really like that with the new power-system you are likely less busy finding/goto asteroids and more busy mining them.
Except you build an even bigger ship out of blocks which are made from metal meshes and crystal composites.

 

[Wolverines527]

They should make it to where you get faction points from territory and the higher the points you have for your faction you get a mining bonus for every 1000 faction point you have you get a 1% mining bonus added to your factions percentage and when you lose territory to another faction or by your own choice you lose faction points so this will encourage pvp

 

[djthekiller]

Perhaps have a system where:
A) The Faction's first homebase costs only X FP, and
B) Every station after that costs X^2=Y FP.

This is to reduce the amount of stations and to encourage active players, and then when you begin to lose FP make it so:
When a player dies
A)They lose FP
B)They lose their ship to the enemy faction
C) Make the faction points necessary to lose the station larger than it takes to make it, perhaps 1.5Y