Essential changes: Weapons, Hitpoints, Ship Design, Movement, Power, Shields, Turrets, Stealth

[Battle]

Hello,

I played Starmade quite a while ago and I had some essential ideas to change the game. Now I started to play it again and I would like to post new ideas in regard of all recent patches especially including the changes to weapons, which I think, are quite good. At least it shows me, the creator(s) of this game are still changing a lot in the game.

Gameplay: This game is about harvesting things by fighting pirates or by mining/exploring. The more money you get, the more you can basically earn. Also your combat strength increases. Money shouldn't be of great consideration to balance ships, as there is always the possibility of maximization, however they should be a factor to contribute to the progress a player can make.

My suggestions aim to the following: Having diversity in gameplay by multiple efficient options and the design of ships. What we have to balance is the need of filling ships in order to maximize utility. I don't think that is nice. There should also be the possibility to walk around in your ship and watch the utility blocks being all there. Maybe have some decorations. Having the feeling of a real big spaceship with its interiour without the knowlodge of having "wasted" efficiency for "just" some decoration. My ideas are mostly about efficiency and design, also with the required changes to aquire that. I would gladly help out with more detailed numbers, as I think this might be one of the most difficult things to figure out.

Let's start.


-> Hitpoints for shields, armor, structure. Core no longer the singular block to kill.
There is a display for hitpoints but no use of it. My idea is the following, having 3 stats to define the defenses of each ship:

- Shields: Blocks all damage. Regenerates out of combat relatively quickly but also in combat a little. This "under fire" regeneration guarantees immunity against relatively small ships, which you can't harm at all. The armor % of the block hit defines the damage taken to the shield (usually hull is the thing being hit). Capacity and regeneration are based on the amount of shield blocks.

- Armor: When the shield is down, the ship armor takes damage. While block damage is prevented, utility blocks (e.g. weapons, engines, power, etc.) can get temporarily malfunctional if hit. While being attacked, block after block the status of being malfunctional is spreading by letting attacks penetrate already afflicted blocks. This is not to be confused with block hitpoints, this is only a state of temporarily not working blocks. This does not spread very drastically, as there is still armor doing its job. Armor regenerates rather slowly out of combat, but can also be repaired externally (or maybe internally too? Healing turrets with AI?). The total amount of all blocks plus all empty blocks surrounded by at least 5 blocks in any distance [Everything inside the ship, even unused space] define the amount of armor. This will cause bulky ships to be sturdier but easier to hit. (also the interiour of the ship, where you could walk around still accounts to armor)

- Structure: If shields and armor are down, the blocks itself get damaged. They will be eliminated just like now. Malfunctioning blocks are already at ~25% HP and allow penetration. The total amount of all blocks in the ship defines the structure hitpoints, however it is an amount roughly equal to the destruction of 30% of the ships content, as the structure hitpoints drop with each block destroyed. If enough blocks are destroyed, the ship becomes a wreck and salvagable. It stops regenerating anything. The core is a weakspot which takes additional damage, but to destroy the ship (owner), you need to bring the structure hitpoints to 0. Entering a wreck will initially fix some systems, but cripple weapons, engines, shields, armor and power systems for a duration based on total block amount.


-> Save the blueprint of each ship in itself to allow a repair feature.
Makes little damages hurt much less. Also great usability for repair tools. Make a quick save button or shortcut somewhere for it, and if it is already damaged, disallow save or ask if the player is sure about saving a damaged ship. Also if bought from a blueprint, use that blueprint automatically (the same with saving blueprints).


-> Weapons and Engines need to be put outside to allow vulnerabilities.
Engines should be the vulnerable spot of each ship, so the ship takes more damage or even temporary engine malfunctions despite of shields. They should be in need to be on the outside (not covered with a hull block in one direction). The result is no hull protection on engines. Also, decorative elements which are not utility blocks or hulls elements should just bypass attacks to calculate damage taken to shields for example. Engines adjacent to engines on the outside should provide 30% less efficiency. Those directly "behind" them should provide only 20% less efficiency. And for each block of distance this is another 20%/30% efficiency less. Also, to actually work, engines (and weapons) need to be outside to work at all.


-> Alter aiming and movement in massive ways.
Movement is a great issue in the game. It defines so much in this game - taking damage, dealing damage, fleeing, chasing. I would orientate to the old game "Freelancer", which was awesome, at least in its ship controls. Navigating sideways should only be possible at 10% speed at maximum. Weapons should only be able to shoot forward in a cone of 45°, ships would require to fly in the direction of their target (or face them) for the duration of their attack and therefore need to be mobile.
--> Turret act as normal weapons, but require more power.
Instead of making them AI at standard, they should be 360° rotating weaponry on medium and larger ships. There should be an option for a view for ships, where the ship turn does not follow the cursor/aiming. You fire them like regular weapons, but only those fire which have line of sight to the target (not obstructed by your own ship blocks). Also, turrets need a disadventage, so let them require 30% more power per attack. AI turrets act on themselves, but their energy cost per attack should be increased by another 30%. Also, currently turrets have lost their advantage of shooting down smaller ships, as they miss 99% of their attacks, it's like they aren't even trying. If the movement change shouldn't be enough, their aiming needs to improve. They can't hit anything on a range of even 500... maybe a capital sized carrier... but that's not their real purpose, is it?
---> Turrets become protected by the shield of the ship they are attached to.
Turrets can be a weakspot on each ship, but they should not be easy picking for even the slightest of attacks. In case their average durability is too low, they should be protected by their host. Easy solution (I think I got this from one suggestion from somewhere on the forums), the turrets share the shield of the host ship, but it needs to be dependant of the host ship, how much. I would suggest the following:
As long as the shield is over 50%, the absorbtion is 100% for the turret.
If it is below 50%, the damage absorb on the turrets drop from 100% to 0% as the shield of the host drops from 50% to 0%. So before the turrets can be clipped as weakspots, the shield needs to be down enough. Remember, beside the shields there is still the armor, so until ~30% of the total HP (disregarding structural HP) is destroyed, the turrets are immune.
----> Speed between 20-80, hyperdrive for 150-200.
Speed should be variable along with turning speeds. Smaller ships faster, bigger ships slower. Make a hyperdrive for a maximum speed thing, which needs to be charged for some time. The speed should vary between ~20-80, while hyperdrive should be a set 150-200. While in hyperdrive, ships are invulnerable and untrackable, but can also not attack themselves. Also, if a ship drops out of hyperdrive, its power drops to 25%, shields to 50% (and both regenerate quickly to 100% if not under fire within these few seconds) and weapons will not work for several seconds (depending on size, also prolonged if under attack). This should fix the issue with standardized flying speeds and make hyperdrive not a charge-attack-style of thing.


-> Missiles (and everything with even a little AoE) should deal a base damage plus a potential increase of up to ~200% of their damage if it can hit enough blocks with their AoE.
Best case is a spot in a form of a cave, surrounded on 5 of 6 sites with blocks. The damage potential should be much greater there. However, if a missile can only hit a standing out spike, it should deal much less damage. This is rather important for shields and armor, as blocks get destroyed correctly anyways. This will also assist the creation of clever ship designs and also grant adventages and disadventages in different designs. For example, if you surround the back side of the engines with a weird long hull case, someone could still fire a missile in the middle, and the surrounding hull is actually increasing the damage taken (whereas the weakspot 'engine' is much harder to get to).


-> Allowing decorative interiour of ships by balancing utility blocks so, that there is no need and sense to "fill" the rest of the empty space.
By using the energy generator dimension limitation, you can also limitate the amount of blocks within each ship. Additional power generators cause increasing disadventages. While they increase power generation even further for really hungry ships, they should also decrease shield regeneration power. Technically, they would "redirect" shield energy into more power (rapidly exponentially increasing that amount). Also, shield blocks should drain energy passively. The more you use for shields, the less you have left for other systems like weapons. Power storage modules should also drain passively more energy. Engines and weapons will just need too much energy on use. Make all computer systems use up energy by default (depending on the amount of their modules) to prevent filling the rest of the ship with them as "options". All these changes would greatly increase decision making.
[I would really like to build ships without filling them "after I am finished with the important stuff" with shield generators and regenerators. Maybe add a /fill option instead...]
--> Power cores will be calculated only once in the dimensions formula and additional ones transfer big chunks of shield strength into power.
Power generation should be the limiting element of each ship, the calculations with dimensions is a great solution for that. I would alter it as follows: Their dimensions form a cuboid which prevents any more than only one of this function to happen. Additional power generators will give much less of that power, however, additional power should not be needed in normal cases. Power should still be a deciding factor in combat. I would suggest to let power generators act also partially as power storage, while the power storage modules will grant additional power capacity for the cost of shield capacity (for those kinds of ships, which need it). Same principle as above.

Under the line: Adding too much of a certain block type should have a purpose, like having more energy generation and capacity for deathrays. Or having more shields and less energy for more durability. Also more engines for more speed, but as it should require way more power to utilize, shields and damage would suffer. If your ship is smaller, it is way harder to hit, but it itself deals less damage.

Example:

You have standard 2000 blocks of interiour to fill with utility blocks. Most of it should not and need not to be filled - some space to walk around in your ship. Your ship inside has the a cubic capacity of 20 (length) x 10 x 10 (=2000 blocks).

You build the power generator 'grid' with the optimum of 20 + 10 + 10 blocks, this is the main scale of things you can build inside and how you can handle these things in action.

You have 1960 blocks left. You build 200 engines on a outside surface of 10x5 x2 times. 100 blocks replace the actualy hull, the other 100 blocks are behind them. This design might prove a big weakness on the back side, but spares much power for other things. We have 1860 blocks left. We build 300 shield capacitors and 100 shield regenerators. 1460 left. We add some cannons, 4 guns with each 60 blocks. 1220 left. We add some rockets for extra burst, 3 with each 80 blocks. 980 blocks left. Done. Now we fill the inside of the ship or leave it as it is. The power consumtion should be that of a normal fighter, well balanced. It can deplete in combat, but that's normal and not a big issue.


-> If you add more power generators or capacitors, you lose shield power (defensive power). You can use it to have even bigger or much more power hungry weapons. Or more weapon versatility. Or more speed and maneuverability. Or stealth systems. [There would be still a loophole to exploit. But that's still fixable.]

Addition: Decorative blocks of all kind weigh nothing in regards of movement and speed and are ignored by any damage physics. They will get destroyed thought if penetrated or caught in an AoE.


-> Stealth.
Stealth is often a mighty weapon in skilled hands in most of the games. It should come along with adequate (dis)adventages... but it should at least come with some sense! As of now, it works really weird. It only makes really sense, if you can hide before you can see an enemy, which is mostly possible if having permanent stealth. This should not be a big issue, just a question of building a ship. Also it needs to be merged with the radar thing, as both of them make no sense individually. It should cost quite some sacrifices, like missing versatility, less defenses, special ship designs, making them weak in face to face combat, but strong on surprise attacks. Also allow them to restealth, but make it cost power, and even more power if hit while being stealthed to sustain the stealth. See next paragraph for more details.


-> Power and shield regeneration.
In EVE-Online the regenerations of these things are interesting. They regenerate more if they are lower, but not too low. I think that is quite clever to alter regeneration based on their capacity state. I would suggest the following:
As the power is more filled, it regenerates faster.

On 0% it regenerates with 40% efficiency. On 100% it regenerates with 100%. On 50% it regenerates with 70%. In cases of stealthers it would allow permanent stealth mostly only if their energy is at least ~50-70% (they would also need to stop engines to spare power). If they drop below that, their energy generation becomes too low to maintain permanent stealth. Also this allows a combat gameplay where bursting or keeping sustained firepower is a decision to make. Also using engines excessively would have influence on all that, but be only really a matter for bigger ships. This will grant the game much more depth.

For shields however, I think the same should apply, however, with one further adjustment while being under fire: The regeneration needs to drop to ~30% if being hit. It should gradually get back to 100% if not hit for several seconds. If the shield drops to 0%, it becomes passive: It will not absorb anything until it reaches 30% by its regeneration (ignoring being under fire) (also a maximum regeneration of 2% per second under this circumstance). At this point it reactivates by being at 30%. This makes big burst weapons even more powerful, as they can drop the shields immediately low to prevent a good chunck of their regeneration they would have under perma-fire.


-> The bigger the weapons, the more the damage, the higher the AoE and/or penetration, the slower the attack rate, the slower the shots, the higher the power requirement (all in relation of course).
(Each weapon should have different base strengths regarding splash damage and penetration, and they should never just destroy one singular block by default!)

Bigger weapons tend to be on bigger ships. If you have 100 cannons to distribute, the following happens:
100 - You have a big cannon with the highest damage potential out of the 100 cannons. If your shots hit, they hurt a lot. However, they have problems hitting and require very much power.
50, 50 - You have 2 cannons with a good damage potential. Your shots are faster and hit well. The aiming is ok to hit even smaller ships.
25, 25, 25, 25 - You have 4 small cannons with moderate damage. Your shots fire quite rapidly and hit very well. You can hit much smaller ships than yours.
10x 10 - 10 cannons with low to 'ok' damage. Your shots are so fast they hit even the tinyest of ships. The energy consumtion is quite low and allows to exist as secondary systems. Maybe put them on turrets.

Examples with ratings:

Interceptor (small fighter)
Size: 1 (grants superiour defenses to bigger weapons and slower ships)
Attack: 1 (effective against all speeds, but only up to defense 3)
Defense: 1
Speed (which adds to defense): 10

Fighter (medium fighter)
Size: 3
Attack: 3 (effective against up to speed 8, up to defense 5)
Defense: 3
Speed: 8

Stealth Bomber (medium sized assassin)
Size: 3
Attack: 5 [big burst weaponry] (effective against up to speed 5, up to defense 7)
Defense: 1
Speed: 7

Barrier (medium-large sized tanky frontline)
Size: 4
Attack: 3 [weapons with disturbing functions] (up to speed 8, up to defense 5)
Defense: 7 [destined to withstand heavy punishment]
Speed: 5

Cruiser (large fighter)
Size: 5
Attack: 5
Defense: 5
Speed: 6

The possibilities would be endless. However, as of now, aiming is a misery, turrets are useless, movement is ridiculous, but the potential for awesomeness is there!

Bugs:
- Unguarded space stations can be quickly "looted" by placing a building block somewhere on it and using a 10x10x10 deleting cube. I don't think this makes sense in regard of the existence of salvage cannons. I see it as an easy exploit to get credits very quickly. Solution: Deny the possibility of using (or also placing of) building blocks on stations or ships which do not belong to you. This allows a continual progress in the game for players.
- Turret AI uses weapon combinations weirdly. It fires with all weapons regularly and seems to either ignore or use combinations. Hint: Make all weapons on cooldown after changes to their combinations / effects to prevent abuse.


Trust me, these changes would improve the game mechanics by far.
Greetings!

 

[Vyor]

massive wall of text, but a lot of what you suggested is already being worked on.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

The whole hitpoint thing is already under revision, mainly because of the core being a one-shot kill. They are also considering a way to make shields shield turrets.

As for the cone of 45 degrees, I don't think it is necessary because:
a.) Small ships can't fire at such a high angle because of their high turning speed.
b.) Big ships are really hard to turn, so they would notice the difference, but most huge ships don't have weapons on the ship itself because of the slow turning speed (actually getting that thing to point at something is a huge challenge).

And as for the turrets only being able to turn sideways and not look up and down, that is a deffinite no. Why? Here's why:
a.) In real life turrets can also look up.
b.) Have you got any idea how pointless turrets would be then? The ship would have loads of blind spots and a really easy target!
There should be a better collision area though, because they often glitch through the shop or station (just look at the pirate turrets!).

And I don't agree with the slower top speeds, and what is that nonsense about hyperdrives? There is an overdrive module for that! And even if you did add a new block, why would people use it once FTL is implemented?

Thrusters and weapons have to be outside? How are you going to accomplish that? Weapons should have at least one block on the outside, okay, that is easy to accomplish. Weapons will simply no longer fire through your own ship, and you have to use that one block as output. But how does the game know what is outside and what is in when it comes to thrusters?

Placing more reactors, being called reactors because they output power, beyond the 1 million e/s rate causes (more stuff that doesn't make sence). Seriously, what????!!!!!!!! Adding more power generators beyond rhat already has a negative effect, it's called mass. And there is another, it costs a lot of money and resources. So no, y
This isn't going to cut it either.

The weapons need balancing, but they are already working on it.

Why do you want base values for certain ships? That really limits the creative side of the game, and since this is supposed to be a creative game, this makes no sence if it ever (doubtful) gets implemented.

As for the blueprint-ship repairing thing, ship assemblers are confirmed to be implemented and will have, among others, that function.



It seems to me as if you haven't read any posts by suggestions, the section of the forum YOU posted this thread, before you created this thread. Because if you had, you would have realised that all of these topics you discuss here are already being discussed in numerous threads on this forum. There is a search function, you know.
You really should have posted your ideas there, instead of creating this huge and hard to read thread in which ideas are discussed that have already that have already been many, may times. Just use the search, please, for all our sakes.

 

[Keynesian]

Damn straight!

 

[CoolDog3]

Hello,

I played Starmade quite a while ago and I had some essential ideas to change the game. Now I started to play it again and I would like to post new ideas in regard of all recent patches especially including the changes to weapons, which I think, are quite good. At least it shows me, the creator(s) of this game are still changing a lot in the game.

Gameplay: This game is about harvesting things by fighting pirates or by mining/exploring. The more money you get, the more you can basically earn. Also your combat strength increases. Money shouldn't be of great consideration to balance ships, as there is always the possibility of maximization, however they should be a factor to contribute to the progress a player can make.

My suggestions aim to the following: Having diversity in gameplay by multiple efficient options and the design of ships. What we have to balance is the need of filling ships in order to maximize utility. I don't think that is nice. There should also be the possibility to walk around in your ship and watch the utility blocks being all there. Maybe have some decorations. Having the feeling of a real big spaceship with its interiour without the knowlodge of having "wasted" efficiency for "just" some decoration. My ideas are mostly about efficiency and design, also with the required changes to aquire that. I would gladly help out with more detailed numbers, as I think this might be one of the most difficult things to figure out.

Let's start.


-> Hitpoints for shields, armor, structure. Core no longer the singular block to kill.
There is a display for hitpoints but no use of it. My idea is the following, having 3 stats to define the defenses of each ship:

- Shields: Blocks all damage. Regenerates out of combat relatively quickly but also in combat a little. This "under fire" regeneration guarantees immunity against relatively small ships, which you can't harm at all. The armor % of the block hit defines the damage taken to the shield (usually hull is the thing being hit). Capacity and regeneration are based on the amount of shield blocks.

- Armor: When the shield is down, the ship armor takes damage. While block damage is prevented, utility blocks (e.g. weapons, engines, power, etc.) can get temporarily malfunctional if hit. While being attacked, block after block the status of being malfunctional is spreading by letting attacks penetrate already afflicted blocks. This is not to be confused with block hitpoints, this is only a state of temporarily not working blocks. This does not spread very drastically, as there is still armor doing its job. Armor regenerates rather slowly out of combat, but can also be repaired externally (or maybe internally too? Healing turrets with AI?). The total amount of all blocks plus all empty blocks surrounded by at least 5 blocks in any distance [Everything inside the ship, even unused space] define the amount of armor. This will cause bulky ships to be sturdier but easier to hit. (also the interiour of the ship, where you could walk around still accounts to armor)

- Structure: If shields and armor are down, the blocks itself get damaged. They will be eliminated just like now. Malfunctioning blocks are already at ~25% HP and allow penetration. The total amount of all blocks in the ship defines the structure hitpoints, however it is an amount roughly equal to the destruction of 30% of the ships content, as the structure hitpoints drop with each block destroyed. If enough blocks are destroyed, the ship becomes a wreck and salvagable. It stops regenerating anything. The core is a weakspot which takes additional damage, but to destroy the ship (owner), you need to bring the structure hitpoints to 0. Entering a wreck will initially fix some systems, but cripple weapons, engines, shields, armor and power systems for a duration based on total block amount.


-> Save the blueprint of each ship in itself to allow a repair feature.
Makes little damages hurt much less. Also great usability for repair tools. Make a quick save button or shortcut somewhere for it, and if it is already damaged, disallow save or ask if the player is sure about saving a damaged ship. Also if bought from a blueprint, use that blueprint automatically (the same with saving blueprints).


-> Weapons and Engines need to be put outside to allow vulnerabilities.
Engines should be the vulnerable spot of each ship, so the ship takes more damage or even temporary engine malfunctions despite of shields. They should be in need to be on the outside (not covered with a hull block in one direction). The result is no hull protection on engines. Also, decorative elements which are not utility blocks or hulls elements should just bypass attacks to calculate damage taken to shields for example. Engines adjacent to engines on the outside should provide 30% less efficiency. Those directly "behind" them should provide only 20% less efficiency. And for each block of distance this is another 20%/30% efficiency less. Also, to actually work, engines (and weapons) need to be outside to work at all.


-> Alter aiming and movement in massive ways.
Movement is a great issue in the game. It defines so much in this game - taking damage, dealing damage, fleeing, chasing. I would orientate to the old game "Freelancer", which was awesome, at least in its ship controls. Navigating sideways should only be possible at 10% speed at maximum. Weapons should only be able to shoot forward in a cone of 45°, ships would require to fly in the direction of their target (or face them) for the duration of their attack and therefore need to be mobile.
--> Turret act as normal weapons, but require more power.
Instead of making them AI at standard, they should be 360° rotating weaponry on medium and larger ships. There should be an option for a view for ships, where the ship turn does not follow the cursor/aiming. You fire them like regular weapons, but only those fire which have line of sight to the target (not obstructed by your own ship blocks). Also, turrets need a disadventage, so let them require 30% more power per attack. AI turrets act on themselves, but their energy cost per attack should be increased by another 30%. Also, currently turrets have lost their advantage of shooting down smaller ships, as they miss 99% of their attacks, it's like they aren't even trying. If the movement change shouldn't be enough, their aiming needs to improve. They can't hit anything on a range of even 500... maybe a capital sized carrier... but that's not their real purpose, is it?
---> Turrets become protected by the shield of the ship they are attached to.
Turrets can be a weakspot on each ship, but they should not be easy picking for even the slightest of attacks. In case their average durability is too low, they should be protected by their host. Easy solution (I think I got this from one suggestion from somewhere on the forums), the turrets share the shield of the host ship, but it needs to be dependant of the host ship, how much. I would suggest the following:
As long as the shield is over 50%, the absorbtion is 100% for the turret.
If it is below 50%, the damage absorb on the turrets drop from 100% to 0% as the shield of the host drops from 50% to 0%. So before the turrets can be clipped as weakspots, the shield needs to be down enough. Remember, beside the shields there is still the armor, so until ~30% of the total HP (disregarding structural HP) is destroyed, the turrets are immune.
----> Speed between 20-80, hyperdrive for 150-200.
Speed should be variable along with turning speeds. Smaller ships faster, bigger ships slower. Make a hyperdrive for a maximum speed thing, which needs to be charged for some time. The speed should vary between ~20-80, while hyperdrive should be a set 150-200. While in hyperdrive, ships are invulnerable and untrackable, but can also not attack themselves. Also, if a ship drops out of hyperdrive, its power drops to 25%, shields to 50% (and both regenerate quickly to 100% if not under fire within these few seconds) and weapons will not work for several seconds (depending on size, also prolonged if under attack). This should fix the issue with standardized flying speeds and make hyperdrive not a charge-attack-style of thing.


-> Missiles (and everything with even a little AoE) should deal a base damage plus a potential increase of up to ~200% of their damage if it can hit enough blocks with their AoE.
Best case is a spot in a form of a cave, surrounded on 5 of 6 sites with blocks. The damage potential should be much greater there. However, if a missile can only hit a standing out spike, it should deal much less damage. This is rather important for shields and armor, as blocks get destroyed correctly anyways. This will also assist the creation of clever ship designs and also grant adventages and disadventages in different designs. For example, if you surround the back side of the engines with a weird long hull case, someone could still fire a missile in the middle, and the surrounding hull is actually increasing the damage taken (whereas the weakspot 'engine' is much harder to get to).


-> Allowing decorative interiour of ships by balancing utility blocks so, that there is no need and sense to "fill" the rest of the empty space.
By using the energy generator dimension limitation, you can also limitate the amount of blocks within each ship. Additional power generators cause increasing disadventages. While they increase power generation even further for really hungry ships, they should also decrease shield regeneration power. Technically, they would "redirect" shield energy into more power (rapidly exponentially increasing that amount). Also, shield blocks should drain energy passively. The more you use for shields, the less you have left for other systems like weapons. Power storage modules should also drain passively more energy. Engines and weapons will just need too much energy on use. Make all computer systems use up energy by default (depending on the amount of their modules) to prevent filling the rest of the ship with them as "options". All these changes would greatly increase decision making.
[I would really like to build ships without filling them "after I am finished with the important stuff" with shield generators and regenerators. Maybe add a /fill option instead...]
--> Power cores will be calculated only once in the dimensions formula and additional ones transfer big chunks of shield strength into power.
Power generation should be the limiting element of each ship, the calculations with dimensions is a great solution for that. I would alter it as follows: Their dimensions form a cuboid which prevents any more than only one of this function to happen. Additional power generators will give much less of that power, however, additional power should not be needed in normal cases. Power should still be a deciding factor in combat. I would suggest to let power generators act also partially as power storage, while the power storage modules will grant additional power capacity for the cost of shield capacity (for those kinds of ships, which need it). Same principle as above.

Under the line: Adding too much of a certain block type should have a purpose, like having more energy generation and capacity for deathrays. Or having more shields and less energy for more durability. Also more engines for more speed, but as it should require way more power to utilize, shields and damage would suffer. If your ship is smaller, it is way harder to hit, but it itself deals less damage.

Example:

You have standard 2000 blocks of interiour to fill with utility blocks. Most of it should not and need not to be filled - some space to walk around in your ship. Your ship inside has the a cubic capacity of 20 (length) x 10 x 10 (=2000 blocks).

You build the power generator 'grid' with the optimum of 20 + 10 + 10 blocks, this is the main scale of things you can build inside and how you can handle these things in action.

You have 1960 blocks left. You build 200 engines on a outside surface of 10x5 x2 times. 100 blocks replace the actualy hull, the other 100 blocks are behind them. This design might prove a big weakness on the back side, but spares much power for other things. We have 1860 blocks left. We build 300 shield capacitors and 100 shield regenerators. 1460 left. We add some cannons, 4 guns with each 60 blocks. 1220 left. We add some rockets for extra burst, 3 with each 80 blocks. 980 blocks left. Done. Now we fill the inside of the ship or leave it as it is. The power consumtion should be that of a normal fighter, well balanced. It can deplete in combat, but that's normal and not a big issue.


-> If you add more power generators or capacitors, you lose shield power (defensive power). You can use it to have even bigger or much more power hungry weapons. Or more weapon versatility. Or more speed and maneuverability. Or stealth systems. [There would be still a loophole to exploit. But that's still fixable.]

Addition: Decorative blocks of all kind weigh nothing in regards of movement and speed and are ignored by any damage physics. They will get destroyed thought if penetrated or caught in an AoE.


-> Stealth.
Stealth is often a mighty weapon in skilled hands in most of the games. It should come along with adequate (dis)adventages... but it should at least come with some sense! As of now, it works really weird. It only makes really sense, if you can hide before you can see an enemy, which is mostly possible if having permanent stealth. This should not be a big issue, just a question of building a ship. Also it needs to be merged with the radar thing, as both of them make no sense individually. It should cost quite some sacrifices, like missing versatility, less defenses, special ship designs, making them weak in face to face combat, but strong on surprise attacks. Also allow them to restealth, but make it cost power, and even more power if hit while being stealthed to sustain the stealth. See next paragraph for more details.


-> Power and shield regeneration.
In EVE-Online the regenerations of these things are interesting. They regenerate more if they are lower, but not too low. I think that is quite clever to alter regeneration based on their capacity state. I would suggest the following:
As the power is more filled, it regenerates faster.

On 0% it regenerates with 40% efficiency. On 100% it regenerates with 100%. On 50% it regenerates with 70%. In cases of stealthers it would allow permanent stealth mostly only if their energy is at least ~50-70% (they would also need to stop engines to spare power). If they drop below that, their energy generation becomes too low to maintain permanent stealth. Also this allows a combat gameplay where bursting or keeping sustained firepower is a decision to make. Also using engines excessively would have influence on all that, but be only really a matter for bigger ships. This will grant the game much more depth.

For shields however, I think the same should apply, however, with one further adjustment while being under fire: The regeneration needs to drop to ~30% if being hit. It should gradually get back to 100% if not hit for several seconds. If the shield drops to 0%, it becomes passive: It will not absorb anything until it reaches 30% by its regeneration (ignoring being under fire) (also a maximum regeneration of 2% per second under this circumstance). At this point it reactivates by being at 30%. This makes big burst weapons even more powerful, as they can drop the shields immediately low to prevent a good chunck of their regeneration they would have under perma-fire.


-> The bigger the weapons, the more the damage, the higher the AoE and/or penetration, the slower the attack rate, the slower the shots, the higher the power requirement (all in relation of course).
(Each weapon should have different base strengths regarding splash damage and penetration, and they should never just destroy one singular block by default!)

Bigger weapons tend to be on bigger ships. If you have 100 cannons to distribute, the following happens:
100 - You have a big cannon with the highest damage potential out of the 100 cannons. If your shots hit, they hurt a lot. However, they have problems hitting and require very much power.
50, 50 - You have 2 cannons with a good damage potential. Your shots are faster and hit well. The aiming is ok to hit even smaller ships.
25, 25, 25, 25 - You have 4 small cannons with moderate damage. Your shots fire quite rapidly and hit very well. You can hit much smaller ships than yours.
10x 10 - 10 cannons with low to 'ok' damage. Your shots are so fast they hit even the tinyest of ships. The energy consumtion is quite low and allows to exist as secondary systems. Maybe put them on turrets.

Examples with ratings:

Interceptor (small fighter)
Size: 1 (grants superiour defenses to bigger weapons and slower ships)
Attack: 1 (effective against all speeds, but only up to defense 3)
Defense: 1
Speed (which adds to defense): 10

Fighter (medium fighter)
Size: 3
Attack: 3 (effective against up to speed 8, up to defense 5)
Defense: 3
Speed: 8

Stealth Bomber (medium sized assassin)
Size: 3
Attack: 5 [big burst weaponry] (effective against up to speed 5, up to defense 7)
Defense: 1
Speed: 7

Barrier (medium-large sized tanky frontline)
Size: 4
Attack: 3 [weapons with disturbing functions] (up to speed 8, up to defense 5)
Defense: 7 [destined to withstand heavy punishment]
Speed: 5

Cruiser (large fighter)
Size: 5
Attack: 5
Defense: 5
Speed: 6

The possibilities would be endless. However, as of now, aiming is a misery, turrets are useless, movement is ridiculous, but the potential for awesomeness is there!

Bugs:
- Unguarded space stations can be quickly "looted" by placing a building block somewhere on it and using a 10x10x10 deleting cube. I don't think this makes sense in regard of the existence of salvage cannons. I see it as an easy exploit to get credits very quickly. Solution: Deny the possibility of using (or also placing of) building blocks on stations or ships which do not belong to you. This allows a continual progress in the game for players.
- Turret AI uses weapon combinations weirdly. It fires with all weapons regularly and seems to either ignore or use combinations. Hint: Make all weapons on cooldown after changes to their combinations / effects to prevent abuse.


Trust me, these changes would improve the game mechanics by far.
Greetings!

I like most of it but don't agree with the part about engines and weapons being on the outside since many people live to use ice crystals and lava and such to make weapons and engines look really cool. Also people also like to make their AMC bolts look bigger by disconnecting weapons from each other on the inside. This would also render most ships that have ever been made USELESS as most cool looking ships(and turrets) have some covering on their engines and weapons( that includes a ship I have been working on for six months and it would really stink if I would have to redo my entire engines and weapons)! And turrets shouldn't have their parent's ship shields. This would make it completely useless to have people in fighters trying to take down turrets while you take down the actual ship.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Turrets should have their own basic shield capacity with a regen that partially gets drained from the ships regen capabilities.

 

[Battle]

"And as for the turrets only being able to turn sideways and not look up and down, that is a deffinite no. Why? Here's why"

I never said they should not be able to look up and down. While your primary 'fixed' weapons on the ships should stay more static and harder to hit with if your ship gets bigger, turrets should have the function to fight smaller ships, which cannot be fighted with your primary weapons. Small ships and even quite some sizes bigger would be still well capable of fighting without turrets by using their good mobility. The 45° cone is intended to exist to standardize the fire ranges, as you can click on the edge of your screen to fire... also diagonally you have up to 40% more of that "horizontal" range (applying Pythagorean theorem, which is a limitation set by computer and monitor mechanics rather by the game itself. The turrets only restriction is their turning speed (which should be fast) and their line of sight (only blocked by your own ship itself).


"And I don't agree with the slower top speeds, and what is that nonsense about hyperdrives? There is an overdrive module for that! And even if you did add a new block, why would people use it once FTL is implemented?"

To allow different flying speeds (having faster ships and slower ships), there is a need to have some kind of standardized high-speed. If it is FTL or hyperdrive is not of great matter. Also, as you might not know, the overdrive module just raises the set speed limit as long as it is activated. If your ship would have a maximum speed of 20, it would bring it to like 40, a ship with 80 would get 160, so that has quite nothing to do with that.


"But how does the game know what is outside and what is in when it comes to thrusters?"
"This would also render most ships that have ever been made USELESS as most cool looking ships(and turrets) have some covering on their engines and weapons"

Simple. A block surrounded by a maximum of 5 of 6 sides with any blocks considered outside. As of decorations for engines and weapons, there is still an easy solution I mentioned: Decorative blocks "ignore combat", they let attacks pierce them, have 0 hitpoints, get instantly destroyed if hit if shields and armor are down. Also they don't hinder flying speed or mobility with their weigh. Also they ignore the line-of-sight check for weapons. It is mostly important if engines/weapons or hull blocks are hit, as the armor ratings are different.

As you build a ship you would want to have a good fitting balance between engine area on the outside and engines in the inside. If you build too much outside, your vulnerability from behind raises, if you build too much inside you need more thrusters and therefore more power.


"Placing more reactors, being called reactors because they output power..."

You didn't seem to understand it at all. There is only a small number of reactors needed, ranging from left to right, from top to bottom, from back to front. If you have these, which would be ~=40 on a ship with the size of 20 x 10 x 10. The additional ones, which are not needed in standard ship designs, lower shield capacity (or regeneration) and add them to the power capacity (or regeneration), but in a high ratio. Also, it does not matter how I call things, as long as these expressions are well descriptive enough.


"Why do you want base values for certain ships? That really limits the creative side of the game, and since this is supposed to be a creative game, this makes no sence if it ever (doubtful) gets implemented."

These are just my personal ratings so the readers can follow my thought process better. I seem to have failed in your case. And if you didn't notice it, creativity has its boundaries, its structural and functional rules. Just how like physics is a limitation in architecture, or how the amount of colors in painting, or how the capabilities of the body in dancing. This game has also these boundaries, even now. I think the fact, that you have to fill ships with shield blocks to maximize efficiency IS a boundary I would like to have changed. Because for perfection in architecture you have to master the combination of design and function.


"This would also render most ships that have ever been made USELESS"

With the recent patches all my blueprints lost their use. I had 25 of them, and the biggest one was a heavy battleship with 20 turrets. Not only do the turrets 99% less damage as they always miss now, the shield reg blocks did not exist back then. This is an absolute normal thing in a game in alpha state. It's the same fate Minecraft worlds once had.


"And turrets shouldn't have their parent's ship shields. This would make it completely useless to have people in fighters trying to take down turrets while you take down the actual ship."

I see this seems to be an actual discussion point. As of that I want to tell my views about that.
Turrets are part of a ship and should benefit from their protection. I suggested, that its defense scales with the shield of the hosting ship, but only beginning by 50% and downwards. Maybe let it scale directly from 100% to 0%. My thoughts are: You don't fight a really big ship with a ton of mini-ships. Before you can fight it, it needs to be softened up by bigger weaponry. I assume it would be in a battle with either a ship of its own size or below it. A size, that can withstand its firepower, but cannot win alone against it. So it has additional small fighters as companions to assist. Let's just assume this scenario:
1 big ship versus 1 medium (just little smaller) ship and 5 small ships.
The turrets are effective against the small ships, but also vice versa.
The big ship is effective against the medium ship.

Firstly, the medium ship damages the big ship to soften up its shields, so the turrets get more and more disposed to the small fighters. As soon as the shields got enough damage, the turrets can be picked up, and if the small fighters win, they can use their firepower to harass the big ship from behind to deal more damage. Their damage is normally low, but as the armor of engines is 0% and that of hull 50%, it is practically double damage - so the low damage becomes much more worth even in a fight against a much bigger ship. This grants them still a good function.

Another scenario. A big ship with no turrets, 3 small fighter as enemies. The big ship can't do anything to stop the 3 fighters from harassing him. Imagine it had turrets, but no protection. Imagine the fighters won and the turrets die. Its just a matter of time until the big ship gets picked up by 3 little fighters. This is something I would like to prevent by granting immunity to turrets as long as there is no real threat it can actually interact or fight with.

So... making turrets absolutely unprotected makes them too weak. Making them invulnerable makes them too strong. I think a midway, where the creator has some influence on that is the best way. You could for example focus on more shield power than normally, so your turrets are better protected, this way you could build a anti-interceptor gunship which can withstand more punishment while bringing the pain to the nasty, quick harassers.

Greetings

 

[CoolDog3]

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but I think some of these ideas are not very easy to do from a programing perspective.

 

[starhaiden]

I don't want shield regeneration capacity to decrease when I'm under fire. I think they should just consume about 20% more power

 

[NeonSturm]

I don't want shield regeneration capacity to decrease when I'm under fire. I think they should just consume about 20% more power

You can do that.
Check your blockBehaviourConfig.xml

                        <ShieldDirectRecoveryTime>60</ShieldDirectRecoveryTime> <!-- this time is set to the value gives after each hit sustained. In direct recovery, <ShieldRecoveryMultPerPercent> is applied. Otherwise it's running on full recharge -->
                        <ShieldRecoveryMultPerPercent>0.5</ShieldRecoveryMultPerPercent> <!-- MAX % at high health   -   in direct recovery, the shield recharge will be multiplied by (1-((shield/max)*thisValue));-->

REPLACE:
                        <ShieldRecoveryMult>0.1</ShieldRecoveryMult> <!-- MAX % at low health   - in direct recovery, the shield recharge will be multiplied: recharge = recharge*thisValue;-->
                        <ShieldRechargePowerConsuption>10</ShieldRechargePowerConsuption> <!-- (when shield < 100%) per regen point -->
                        <ShieldFullPowerConsuption>1</ShieldFullPowerConsuption> <!-- (when shield == 100%) per regen point -->
WITH:
                        <ShieldRecoveryMult>1.0</ShieldRecoveryMult> <!-- MAX % at low health   - in direct recovery, the shield recharge will be multiplied: recharge = recharge*thisValue;-->
                        <ShieldRechargePowerConsuption>1.2</ShieldRechargePowerConsuption> <!-- (when shield < 100%) per regen point -->
                        <ShieldFullPowerConsuption>1</ShieldFullPowerConsuption> <!-- (when shield == 100%) per regen point -->

 

[Battle]

"I don't want shield regeneration capacity to decrease when I'm under fire. I think they should just consume about 20% more power"

I don't want to say that this is a necessary feature, but to avoid immunities by shield powers and quick regenerations if not hit for few seconds, this is a good solution. As of now, the only real defense are shields. After them the pain begins.


Don't mean to burst your bubble, but I think some of these ideas are not very easy to do from a programing perspective.

Well, I think it might be easier than you think. For example, there is already a check for engines if they are the "outside" ones, because only those have the glowing animation. The dimension thing with the power generators is already there, just alter the formula. Of course some of the ideas are new features, but they are no difficult features. I think the hardest part is the game of numbers.

 

[starhaiden]

but I want shield to regenerate faster in a battle then outside one. it would be better if it uses more power because somebody with a ship a sixth of the size of the ship could easier destroy a stationary titan by continuously firing at it or they could destroy a station easy.
somebody could use a powerful missile ship and have one weak turret with stop effect that could stop you from escaping or your shields regenerating.

 

[Battle]

Yes... that's an issue, simular to that I stated above. Also, imagine you have a long range weapon the station does not have, or it has a weakspot where it just can't retaliate. After a while even a much smaller ship can penetrate the station. Well... the solution would be to improve station weaponry's range above the range of the longest possible range weapon a ship can have or/and have shields lose no regeneration when under attack. The shield strength at all should increase much more with increasing sizes, allowing much longer fights and higher protection from too tiny ships. Stations (basically everything stationary with according blocks) might get an increase in every value any utility block offers, like 100% more shield capacity and generation, 50% more weapon damage, 150% more weapon range, and full shield coverage by shields, as they wouldn't have primary weapons like ships would.

 

[NeonSturm]

+ Agree to 50% more weapon range => 150% total.
+ Agree to more shield regeneration (it should just not have reduced regeneration after hits - at least not that much)
- Disagree to more weapon damage (would buff turrets too much (tracking speed))

I am not sure if I should agree or disagree on shield capacity (you need no thrusters on stations and neither care about mass) maybe just for turrets, because you can't turn a station to keep them out of fire.
But I rather want turrets to share 50% recharge to station and station receive 50% damage from damage against turrets. That would be less "shield capacity from out of no-where"

 

[CoolDog3]

Are you saying the weapon output has to be on the outside or all of the weapons have to be on the outside?

 

[Battle]

"Are you saying the weapon output has to be on the outside or all of the weapons have to be on the outside?"

Only the output.
Well, there could also be a bonus if parts are outside, as a trade to having more vulnerability... Maybe this might be a good solution for smaller ship designs, where you simply can't afford to put much hull on everything. Weapons should have 25% armor, so ships would take 50% more damage if hit there (in comparison to hull which would have 50% armor; an engine would take 100% more damage with 0% armor).

What I imagine is for example a big cannon or a deathray ("damage beam" with "damage pulse" upgrade), making a ship a high burst damage dealer at high power costs, especially effective against bigger ships and even stations. To maintain the power for it, it could put parts of the weaponry outside, as it could reduce power costs slightly by like 25%. The shape could look like that from the front:

/ . [ ] . \
[ ] [ ] [ ]
\ . [ ] . /

I used it more often in my smaller ship designs because I liked it. But that one is of less importance... however a potencial feature.


"+ Agree to 50% more weapon range => 150% total."

Not enough! I tell you why. As of now you can upgrade the range of any weapon by 100%. Let's just assume there is a standard long range of 1000. You could upgrade it to 2000. A station with the same weapons would have 1500 with only +50% and would still be forced to always use that range upgrade. Even +100% would not be enough, as this would result in a range 2000 vs range 2000, but the turrets of the station might not cover a spot (like the edges) and allow free siege without retaliation. With +150%, stations would not only outrange any range upgrades, they would also prevent weakspot leaks. Also it allows more turrets within range ~500 to also fire at the ship, which have line of sight.

Stations are really vulnerable, and it would be a pity if they get destroyed without doing anything to defend itself. To destroy a station the enemy should come up with some huge firepowers, not with exploits.

 

[NeonSturm]

"Are you saying the weapon output has to be on the outside or all of the weapons have to be on the outside?"

Only the output.
Well, there could also be a bonus if parts are outside, as a trade to having more vulnerability... Maybe this might be a good solution for smaller ship designs, where you simply can't afford to put much hull on everything. Weapons should have 25% armor, so ships would take 50% more damage if hit there (in comparison to hull which would have 50% armor; an engine would take 100% more damage with 0% armor).

What I imagine is for example a big cannon or a deathray ("damage beam" with "damage pulse" upgrade), making a ship a high burst damage dealer at high power costs, especially effective against bigger ships and even stations. To maintain the power for it, it could put parts of the weaponry outside, as it could reduce power costs slightly by like 25%. The shape could look like that from the front:

/ . [ ] . \
[ ] [ ] [ ]
\ . [ ] . /

I used it more often in my smaller ship designs because I liked it. But that one is of less importance... however a potencial feature.


"+ Agree to 50% more weapon range => 150% total."

Not enough! I tell you why. As of now you can upgrade the range of any weapon by 100%. Let's just assume there is a standard long range of 1000. You could upgrade it to 2000. A station with the same weapons would have 1500 with only +50% and would still be forced to always use that range upgrade. Even +100% would not be enough, as this would result in a range 2000 vs range 2000, but the turrets of the station might not cover a spot (like the edges) and allow free siege without retaliation. With +150%, stations would not only outrange any range upgrades, they would also prevent weakspot leaks. Also it allows more turrets within range ~500 to also fire at the ship, which have line of sight.

Stations are really vulnerable, and it would be a pity if they get destroyed without doing anything to defend itself. To destroy a station the enemy should come up with some huge firepowers, not with exploits.

1:
The problem is that it encourages doom-boxes over ships that cover their weapons with hull.
Thrusters always have plumes if they have 1 free block behind them - not a reliable way to detect if they are completely outside.

I think it would limit design choices too much. Devs will never add it in it's current version - like you describe it.
Maybe just let weapons hit the own ship (but do no damage and will not draw power if the shot failed) -> you would have to leave the output area free of blocks.
+ allow 1 layer of Deco by spawning the projectile slightly in front.


2:
Imagine 2000->3000 range. A ship with travelling with v=140 would take 7 seconds before itself is in weapon range.

Maybe we both are right. Some servers may need 50%, others 100% and again others which allow 6km Titans would require +300% bonus.

Players can fire in a direction while turrets only fire after cores in weapon range (and core/turret position differences are an easy exploit, currently)
To avoid ship exploits, turrets would need [max ship size] fire range bonus.

 

[Battle]

Hmm... about doomboxes.

Regarding one of the above ideas above (as most of it is kind of coherent), the power generators with their special dimension-formula would define the overall capabilities of the ship. I mean, you could have a design where you have the following shape:

[ ]
[ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ]
[ ]

And it would have the same power generation as a cube. Also, as it shouldn't be needed or even good to "fill" the ship with utility blocks, there would be enough inner room for everything you would want to have anyways. However, as the armor hitpoints depend on all blocks inside including the space, it would be higher in a cube. But together with increasing armor, the need for engines raises (or the speed is much slower) [On this point I should add, the total weigh of the ship should also include the inner space if it also grants armor]. Also the ship is way better to hit, granting it the vulnerabilities of bigger ships but without their additional performances. Under the line, doomboxes would be exactly the form that is the most disadvantageaus.


"I think it would limit design choices too much."

Nah, it's the opposite. The choices you make will make more sense and the balances get better. This has not the effect of limiting designes, it rather gives more designs a value in places of the game.

Of course my intentions and ideas are about having as many different designs and shapes as possible, but to achieve that, the efficience and functions have to follow. The optic is not the only thing the game has to offer, nor only the gameplay. Both in combination make this!

 

[Battle]

I see there are mostly disagrees to the thread... come on guys, really? Do you not comprehend or do you want the game to stagnate? Or do you disagree with 10% you read slightly and smash the disagree button for the whole thing?

These are no simple ideas to enhance the gameplay here and there slightly, these are meant to bring the game on a level where it extends its content from "weirdly flying minecraft things with occasional unbalanced shootings" to a real economical spaceship fighting game while allowing and even supporting cool designs.

 

[Vyor]

I see there are mostly disagrees to the thread... come on guys, really? Do you not comprehend or do you want the game to stagnate? Or do you disagree with 10% you read slightly and smash the disagree button for the whole thing?

These are no simple ideas to enhance the gameplay here and there slightly, these are meant to bring the game on a level where it extends its content from "weirdly flying minecraft things with occasional unbalanced shootings" to a real economical spaceship fighting game while allowing and even supporting cool designs.

false dilemma fallacy, ignoring post.