Either Simplify or Expand Factories

[MacThule]

We definitely need to find a way back to specialisation in recipes. It would make trade in multi much more engaging.

I think that this is where tech could become extremely relevant. Rather than recipes being random or semi-random, let them keep their very simple profiles at outset, but facilitate a research & development process that allows players to (slowly) develop new versions of recipes that (incrementally) improve production efficiency, output quality, and the ability to craft high-end components with slightly less valuable materials (imagine the advantage of being able to shave even 10% off the Fertikeen overhead for Advanced Armor).

 

[EricBlank]

Yeah, exactly that!

Dont think the game devs are going to even consider higher tier or better ship component blocks, like tier 2 weapons or anything, at least not any time soon, but differences in production methods/efficiencies seems plausible with what they do plan to do with the game.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Currently we have just a few factory types that can be pretty readily hot-swapped as needed, but what if you could bind a factory such that it and all of it's enhancers become irrevocably bound to only produce one thing, but they become more efficient when you do this. So if you want to become a vendor for beam blocks, you bind a factory to make them. It then produces an extra 20% of that block with the same amount of resources. You could then bind a Zernicer refinery and get compounding efficiency. So your 100k Zernicer can then produce 14.4k beams instead of 10k. This means that you could make money just by buying Zernicer Ore and selling beams.

If you try to remove a bound factory, the blocks are destroyed instead of picked up; so, you can't just remove and undo to reset them.

Following this model, you could either make a very complex factory that makes every type of block efficiently, but much more slowly because most of your factories won't be doing anything most of the time. Or you could make a multi-purpose factory they can make everything you need, but not very cheaply. Or you could specialize: make a small handful of large, bound, refineries and factories so you sell the stuff you make efficiently, and buy stuff from other specialists.

I'm sure people would eventually develop to the point they can mass produce all that they need, but such a base would take a long time to build because of the massive amount of reactors and factory blocks needed to make such a base.
[doublepost=1531773000,1531772853][/doublepost]This idea would pair very well with this suggestion:

https://starmadedock.net/threads/we-need-to-relook-at-the-homebase-issue.29521/

I think even those of us who are most pro-removal of HBI will have all wind removed from our starmade sails if we logged in one day and all our shit was wiped out. The game population is already dead enough without demotivating more community members (strange coming from the guy who launched a no invulnerable home-bases server a couple times, I know)

That being said, I am a big fan of more server.cfg options for custom tailoring servers. There could be one for ‘remove home base invulnerability if no faction member logs in for X Days’ to help clean up the one-manners that quit or to encourage more playing.

There are other controls that could be explored, perhaps like a cargo storage limit variable on a base entity (counting ship cargo docked to said station) forcing factions to have storehouse stations for materials. Or, consume more FP with more mass of shit docked to your HB (requiring the old favorite reverse faction config)

 

[splatthecat]

From the sounds of it the old default stations could be a thing of the past. No more derelicts or decaying pirate stations will mean no more need for the Micro Assembler. This could be changed to a Disassembler that could recycle items and reduce them down to their component blocks (minus a few that will be <randomly> lost in the processing) to be made into other things perhaps?

Make certain resources randomly (or by design through the .cfg) rarer than others to encourage further exploration/alliances/trade/conflict.

Make all recipes available to all factories but adjust power usage, bake time and resource amounts accordingly across the factories; so, a basic factory can make advanced hardener but will take longer, more power and more resources than if made in an advanced factory. Grey basic armor can be made in an advanced factory but would draw more power than if made in a basic factory and so on.

Finally, waste items such as dirt, rock, etc should have some value, however small in the manufacturing process. Standard hardener for example could use massive amounts of rock for example instead?

 

[Edymnion]

Yeah, exactly that!

Dont think the game devs are going to even consider higher tier or better ship component blocks, like tier 2 weapons or anything, at least not any time soon, but differences in production methods/efficiencies seems plausible with what they do plan to do with the game.

What if we changed factory enhancers from a minimum enhancement (to production) to a maximum?

As in, right now if you have 999 enhancers on a factory, it churns out 1,000 items per tic.

What if we capped production at say 100 blocks per tick, and then had research that would allow us to increase that cap for specific types of blocks?

So someone could research a long chain of projects to increase their Standard Armor manufacturing up to 10,000 per tic, and become the main supplier of armor on a server (assuming they also have the factory power to support that capacity).

Hmmm... oh, how about the Micro Assembler gets redesignated to an "Efficiency Designer". Have each important block have a set of threshold counts. You drop blocks into the "Efficiency Designer" (terrible name, I know), and it destroys those blocks and adds +1 to the efficiency count for your faction for that block. You get the count high enough, and it allows an extra item to be made per tic.

So say you start out with 1 basic armor per tic. You make 10 of those, toss them in the designer, it eats them, and adds 10 to your basic armor efficiency count. Do it again and again until you reach a count of 100. Now your factories are allowed to make 2 per tick (given proper factory enhancers).

Just find an equation that makes it exponentially more expensive (without being too horrible) so that it takes a pretty massive investment of time and blocks before you can start making 4-5 digits of product a tic.

 

[NTIMESc]

Make all recipes available to all factories but adjust power usage, bake time and resource amounts accordingly across the factories;

This was my thought as well, except without the other factories. If the factory has to go through the process of making each sub-component, it will result in a natural increase in bake time as well as increasing power and resource consumption.

What if we changed factory enhancers from a minimum enhancement (to production) to a maximum?

Wouldn't everyone just slap down the minimum number of blocks to reach the cap then? I think this would move the game further away from block-base systems.
Factory Enhancers already give players the ability to specialize in production rate. Perhaps Factory Enhancers should also yield a small decrease in materials consumed as well, to represent less production waste.
Factory Enhancers should of course be also made significantly more costly to produce to represent the significant investment needed before you can start undercutting the market with your state of the art facility.

 

[Edymnion]

Factory Enhancers already give players the ability to specialize in production rate.

Eh, they increase production rate, they don't allow specialization.

I know my bases so far have 4 sets of factories in them. 1x, 10x, 100x, and 1000x (so that I have 1 of each factory at each of those production levels). Thats going to be obsolete once the "set the upper limit on how many you want to make" thing is finalized, but for me there was no aspect of specialization. There was just "Make this not take so long" and "Keep smaller ones so if I only want 3 lights I don't produce a thousand".

 

[NTIMESc]

Eh, they increase production rate, they don't allow specialization.

Specialization as in, you, the player can specialize in mass production. While everyone can set up a giant factory, not everyone wants to. If someone is looking to build a titan, or a space station, they might need to turn to the trade network to find someone with enough resources on hand if they aren't willing to set up their own factory.
But currently, even without an efficiency boost, I think Factory Enhancers are a little too inexpensive (credit and resource-wise).
If I want to go from making one-offs out of my garage, to producing 10,000 units a day, there are some serious hurdles involved that aren't well represented in game.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Not really a fan of "+1 block" in the sense of "they're better blocks" Edymnion.
Definately am a fan of "+1 block" in the sense that the recipe could be more efficient; either producing an extra block every X "normal" blocks and thus saving on factory ticks and required enhancers, or reducing the input cost and thus saving on mining ticks and required raw storage.

Additionally, over here @Zoolimar restated what I was getting at in a very nice way. GJ man, I think you conveyed it better than I did. Also @EricBlank did a great job with explaining why alternate production is a good idea and how it could work. I think we're mostly on the same page.

Beyond that, the interface for factories is a total mess, I think everyone can agree. I'd like to be able to use that "use production recipe" prompt factories default to again. It was great being able to drop in the meta-item recipe in slot-1 and just leave it running. Alternatively, just being able to slot in whichever block you want it to make there, then having the list pair-down to the X ways you/faction knows how to make it, and whatever blocks can BE made out of it, would be a great UI fix.

 

[Edymnion]

Not really a fan of "+1 block" in the sense of "they're better blocks" Edymnion.

Just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks and what doesn't. Get enough ideas flying around and somebody might hit on something really good.

 

[-PR-Sandbag]

what if factories became like reactors are now? The more "factory blocks" that make up the structure, the more advanced or more you could make from it, with chambers adding to efficiencies or advanced trees of armor, for example?

 

[Edymnion]

what if factories became like reactors are now? The more "factory blocks" that make up the structure, the more advanced or more you could make from it, with chambers adding to efficiencies or advanced trees of armor, for example?

Thats an idea.

Run Enhancers like reactors, and have some kind of chamber system letting you modify how things work, and the chamber setup forcing you to build more specific factory lines. Got an armor factory over here, a weapons factory over there, a support systems factory in the back somewhere...

 

[-PR-Sandbag]

would also bring them into line with the power system and make things feel more uniform

 

[MacThule]

would also bring them into line with the power system and make things feel more uniform

Yeah - add complexity while keeping dynamics relatively consistent. Not a bad idea.

Should be pretty easy to implement some new enhancer sub-blocks that can be slaved to the factory interface comps.

It would be better than the sort of arbitrary 3-tier system. Instead, you need to chamber the factory for specific outputs. It would definitely lead to more specialization for each factory... but then you just put 20 specialized factories on your station.

How to gently softcap total specialized factories per entity under such a dynamic is the next question that comes to my mind, because that would tie back in nicely to the oft-suggested limitation on all-in-one stations.

Very, very good idea, -PR-Sandbag

 

[NTIMESc]

The reactor chamber system uses pretty generic chambers: defense, logistics, stealth, etc.
What would the analogues be for factory chambers? Shop grouping categories, like hulls, docking, light, etc.?

 

[Edymnion]

The reactor chamber system uses pretty generic chambers: defense, logistics, stealth, etc.
What would the analogues be for factory chambers? Shop grouping categories, like hulls, docking, light, etc.?

Off the top of my head:

* Armor - All the various grades of hull blocks
* Weapons - Modules and computers
* Systems - Shields, power, stabilizer, etc
* Decorative - Consoles, displays, lights, etc
* Support - Bobby, rails, dockers, etc

Aka, keep it relatively simple.

 

[jayman38]

I would recommend factory simplification. Leave complexity to the recipes.

Example factory simplification:
Single Factory block: Increase the capacity/output by simply increasing the factory size. Maybe make the output have diminishing returns with a logarithmic function.
Factory-Enhancer chamber types: Multiply output, access different "levels" of recipes, access different "levels" of complex output block types (mostly for fancier decoration blocks, so that basic system blocks can be built with basic factories).

Example:
Let's say you have a 5^3 factory group. Baseline stats: up to 12 output items per cycle, with an output formula of group_block_count ** 0.5 + 1, rounded up. (With this formula, the smallest factory, a single block, will have an output of 2. Add a speed-enhancement rail block with a double-speed output, and you have 1 output every half-cycle.) Add a factory-enhancer chamber of sufficient size and it allows the use of second-tier block types. Add another factory-enhancer chamber to get a second group of recipes, so now you have up to two recipe options for every available output block. (Or maybe the baseline offers two recipe options for every block, so one recipe enhancer chamber increases the recipe options to three per block.)

Edit:
I strongly suggest not requiring any chambers for basic ship systems. Armor, weapons, basic utilities (thrusters, scanners, gravity blocks, doors, basic rails), should all be available to basic factories without enhancers. Remember: New players need to be able to use this stuff with minimum tutorial hand-holding.

An example of how you could use "next-tier" blocks:
A basic factory can build basic doors (plex doors, blast doors, glass doors), but you need a block tier chamber to build force fields.

 

[MacThule]

New players need to be able to use this stuff with minimum tutorial hand-holding.

But do they actually though? Now you have me wondering!

When I've set up factions based near spawn specifically organized to mother noobs and boost the pops on public servers before, there are some new players who after a week or two are like "Hey, I want set up my own factory and shipyard so I'm off to start a new faction - thanks!" but that's like 1/3 of them. The others mostly wanted to buy materials off me and other sociable players and factions. And I think the ones who did want to set up their own production didn't do that because they were really keen to spend time mining and learning how to set up factory rigs, learning about the recipes and the imaginary resources, where to find them, what each one is good for, etc. Because 9/10 of them when they first hit the server want a ship and they want to either explore or fight.

In my experience they come around to crafting when they realize that no one else has enough of the vital materials to sell in sufficient quality so they must either produce their own or constantly be scrounging shop to shop for scraps of this and that.

So crafting doesn't seem to be on the ideal gameplay list for most new players anyway - it's just a necessary evil to acquire the resources for building.

But now we have NPC empires funneling massive amounts of resources into the trade network - most components tend to stay in very good supply anymore. Probably the only disconnect in it is that players don't actually have direct access to the trade network; only shop owners do, and shop owners can't generally turn a profit buying on network and selling local (for a variety of reasons). I wonder if it would be possible for players to have direct access to the trade network and if that would alleviate the need for every player to be miner, manufacturer and shipwright before being able to consistently field ships...

So yeah - not saying you're wrong, just wondering if this assumption that manufacturing needs to be "noob friendly" is correct. Does every single system in a game need to be noob friendly, or is it sensible for some to be accessible only to those with more time and experience invested or the fastest learners, so long as this doesn't inhibit other new players from accessing the main gameplay features of "sandbox space shooter?"

 

[-PR-Sandbag]

I think new people usually just want to fly around and build. They do a bit of mining "with their awesome lazors", go from shop to shop, and buy their way into the game. That's been my experience. Factories is a much later part of the game for new players. The shops are the get out of jail free card here. They give people access to everything without needing to know anything.

 

[jayman38]

But do they actually though? Now you have me wondering!

...

So yeah - not saying you're wrong, just wondering if this assumption that manufacturing needs to be "noob friendly" is correct. Does every single system in a game need to be noob friendly, or is it sensible for some to be accessible only to those with more time and experience invested or the fastest learners, so long as this doesn't inhibit other new players from accessing the main gameplay features of "sandbox space shooter?"

I'm not necessarily concerned with "noob-friendly". I'm just concerned about the "principle of least surprise", allowing players to be able to make the basics without getting too deep into complexity. With factory-construction being an "inconvenient" process for many players, they usually feel that they should just be able to make something functional with the basics. That's how I feel when I first break into a game. Maybe I can't make a ship with forcefields, charged circuits, polished granite tabletops, or a FTL drive, but with just a basic factory, I feel I should be able to produce something that can fly and shoot. I could do without being able to shoot if hostile NPCs and other hostile activities are prohibited in the starting areas. However, most players will want to shoot things right from the get-go.

The other thought I had would be to have better, more efficient recipes available for factories with better recipe chambers. These better, more efficient recipes could actually be less complex, allowing players with better factories to get the parts they need faster and easier. Effectively, this shifts complexity from the recipe side to the factory side. (Simple factories: more complex, resource-inefficient recipes; complex factories: simpler, faster recipes.)