Dual Purpose Turrets

[virtue1987]

Hello Guys

I always liked the Naval Concept of Guns that could engage Surface as well as Ait Targets.
Recently i build some turrets for a ship of mine, Docking them and thought:
"eh, now i have to dock some AMS Turrets as well, would be cool if you could set the turrets to shot down Enemys as well as Missiles"
So, Dual purpose Turrets. Of course you would still use AMS only on those small Turets since they do like 1 dmg and on big Turrets this would be a waste of firepower.
This is aimed for the 50-100 mass Turrets that have some firepower, but it wouldnt be horrible if thes shot down a missile or two.

I thought about that they normaly shot Enemys until they get a Missile in range and then switch to those Targets until ist destroyed.

So, what do you guys think?
Greetings Baikal

 

[Mork2]

You can kind of do this already, except its won't work against VLS missiles or any other missile coming in at an angle away from hostile ship.

Build a conventional turret. Add a docked fixed weapon with its own AI set and set to shoot missiles and set to ship not turret. The main turret will aim at ships and if a missile comes in from that direction the fixed weapon AI should shoot it. But the angle off directly forward is very small. So it doesn't take much for it not to be able to shoot. It also depends if the missile AI picks up the missile in time before it exits its firing cone.

 

[Madman198237]

Keep your separate PD turrets.
Think of this: What happens when the turret is engaging your enemies' many decoy missiles, and the mothership is just pounding you because your turrets are all firing at decoys. Awkward, yes?

 

[virtue1987]

Keep your separate PD turrets.
Think of this: What happens when the turret is engaging your enemies' many decoy missiles, and the mothership is just pounding you because your turrets are all firing at decoys. Awkward, yes?

Well, no it wouldnt be awkward.
Because: if youhave big Turret, you wouldnt apply this Feature to begin with. This is aimed for smaller turrets, too big for normal AMS but too small for to give real support. Your main Damage would come from your main weapons anyway.
This would just be to give those sized turrets more roles to fufill.
Plusi dont mean to replace dedicated AMS with it.

 

[jayman38]

I agree that turrets should have multiple uses. This is especially interesting to help reduce lag by reducing the number of different turrets you need for different jobs.

If a ship drops a bunch of missiles and then jumps away, or if it launches AI-driven torpedoes, half your turrets are doing nothing to help.

You can get a lucky missile hit with a turret now, if the missile happens to be between the turret and its intended target, but I'd rather have turrets that will hunt.

Spoiler: Expanding on the Idea

I have always wanted AI to have a tiered instruction system, to put priorities on different settings, instead of just hard-coding a specific setting.

The AI would be set by the player with an ordered list of targets. If the first target is available, hit it. If not, search for targets lower down on the list.

Example Turret AI list on the same turret:
Targeted Enemy
Closest Enemy (Missile or Ship)
Weakest Enemy Ship
Closest Enemy Ship
Weakest Enemy Station
Closest Enemy Station
Targeted Neutral Ship

This may not be the most efficient list, but it gives an idea of how a turret can be multi-role.

 

[Snowtiger256]

Or maybe do this...

- Build turret.
- Dock an armor plate on it.
- Dock AMS turrets / Single axis turrets on the armor plate.

This is a kind of a compound turret here both the AMS turrets and the larger turret can have separate targets, because the armor plate makes the AMS turrets think that they're docked into a ship...

 

[Madman198237]

Turrets with no valid targets should target missiles. I don't have such a problem with that. I just don't want turrets of any sort prioritizing missiles over the ships doing the launching.

 

[virtue1987]

Or maybe do this...

- Build turret.
- Dock an armor plate on it.
- Dock AMS turrets / Single axis turrets on the armor plate.

This is a kind of a compound turret here both the AMS turrets and the larger turret can have separate targets, because the armor plate makes the AMS turrets think that they're docked into a ship...

Thats actually a good idea, i have to try that out, thanks

Turrets with no valid targets should target missiles. I don't have such a problem with that. I just don't want turrets of any sort prioritizing missiles over the ships doing the launching.

Thats the good part about it, if you dont want it, you dont have to select it.
I just feel that turrets could be more optimized in theyr functions and settings, giving them more options to be set on and make them more versatile.

A while ago i wrote up a thread about turret groups, where in the AI block you would have a another for gruoping turrets togheter like that: Select 0 and nothing Special, select 1-9 and all turrets with the same number setting will act like one, enabeling turet batteries or something. That would fit here also.

Greetings Baikal

 

[Lecic]

This is a dead concept. It's simply not worth it. Keep your turrets separate and you will have a much better time. And if you're worried about having too many entities dedicated to PD, don't be. PD AI tends to reach a "saturation point" at around 1 or 2 dozen turrets, and adding more doesn't increase your effectiveness much. At that point, it's better to improve your PD turrets, adding more barrels of both C/C and C/M, which can help at thinning large swarms when you throw a couple barrels of it onto a PD turret with the regular C/C.

 

[virtue1987]

This is a dead concept. It's simply not worth it. Keep your turrets separate and you will have a much better time. And if you're worried about having too many entities dedicated to PD, don't be. PD AI tends to reach a "saturation point" at around 1 or 2 dozen turrets, and adding more doesn't increase your effectiveness much. At that point, it's better to improve your PD turrets, adding more barrels of both C/C and C/M, which can help at thinning large swarms when you throw a couple barrels of it onto a PD turret with the regular C/C.

So trying to bring in variety is symply not wiorth it, i try to add something that would benefit the game, trying to bring more options in a game that is based on the "make what you want, however you want" idea is worth it.

And could you explain why ist a dead concept? I admit i didnt do a forum search but im sure its not been talked to death.

 

[Lecic]

And could you explain why ist a dead concept? I admit i didnt do a forum search but im sure its not been talked to death.

It's a dead concept due to things like AI having trouble changing targets and the general uselessness of most damage turrets against missiles. Many turrets are either missiles or beams, which cannot shoot down missiles, and a good portion of the rest are heavy cannons, which aren't very effective against missiles either.

 

[Karride]

I support this idea, and more specifically the idea of being able to give the Bobby AI a tiered list of priorities of things to shoot at. If you are a reader of cheap Sci-Fi novels, it is very common for weapons to be "reconfigured for point defense".

It's a dead concept due to things like AI having trouble changing targets and the general uselessness of most damage turrets against missiles...

Ok, so to me this sounds like some things that just need to be addressed in programming. I think we can assume AI targeting will get better, and while they may not currently, why shouldn't a beam or missile weapon be able to kill missiles?
Both missiles and lasers have been used in real life to intercept other missiles (PATRIOT, YAL-1) so I don't see why this is outside the realm of StarMade.

...and a good portion of the rest are heavy cannons, which aren't very effective against missiles either.

Not very effective =/= ineffective. If I've got some monster cannon turret that doesn't have a clear shot at an enemy, I'd rather it at least *try* to shoot down a nuke or two coming my way.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

We do need many AI improvements such as allowing them to target threats they can actually hit instead of locking on a target and focusing only on that target. I build my ships with turrets and fixed guns designed to fire in a set direction and I often see them not doing anything because they have locked on something they can't ever shoot. This would help with AMS not tracking missiles heading away from the ship and maybe give them the ability for target priorities such as shooting at hostile ships but priorities missiles.

 

[KuramaFox]

Perhaps something like this:

When you select "anti-missile," a checkbox appears.

If you check the checkbox, then the turret will attempt to shoot enemies when there aren't missiles in range, but will switch back to missiles any time one is in range.


Another option present on the turret AI could be: Max and minimum azimuth fields: You input numbers (in degrees), which then act as limiters for the AI. It will simply not try to target anything that is outside of that range. If you set the minimum azimuth to 0 and the max to 60 (maybe your turret cannot fire straight up due to its design), then it will only target enemies that are between 0 and 60 degrees up. If a target goes outside of that range, it will look for a new target within its firing constraints instead of trying to keep tracking something on the other side of the hull, or will do nothing until a potential target enters that range for it to target.

It will of course continue to track on the other side of the hull if you don't put in constraints. So you need to test the turret and see what its firing arc is, then input some numbers so it behaves properly. No sense asking for the AI to have to figure out what its own firing constraints are. Its MUCH easier to simply tell it to find a new target when it goes outside some player-defined range.

In addition to azimuth, there could also be a field for rotation constraints, as some ships might have a turret that cannot fire backwards or something.

 

[Lukwan]

In many space dog-fighter games when you hit 'select (nearest) target' the AI will acquire a new target; either the closest enemy to the ship or the closest enemy to the cross-hairs. I would very much like my main weapons and mounted turrets to co-ordinate their fire together on the Alpha-Target.

 

[spunkiethefirst]

I figure if turrets set to ams would still target enemies, if no missiles are in range, would be a good setting to have. So instead of having the settings be exclusive, change the ai to set it for priority. Main guns set for : select target > any > missiles > astronauts . AMS set for missiles > select target > any > astronauts.

Might want to keep the ability to ignore certain target types entirely in case you'd rather capture an astronaut or you don't want your mains chasing missiles when the enemy ship could be near.

 

[Dire Venom]

This is a dead concept. It's simply not worth it. Keep your turrets separate and you will have a much better time. And if you're worried about having too many entities dedicated to PD, don't be. PD AI tends to reach a "saturation point" at around 1 or 2 dozen turrets, and adding more doesn't increase your effectiveness much. At that point, it's better to improve your PD turrets, adding more barrels of both C/C and C/M, which can help at thinning large swarms when you throw a couple barrels of it onto a PD turret with the regular C/C.

Ah so adding more weapons does increase your chances of a hit:?
So a PD turret with 4x C/C would be more likely to shoot down a missile than a turret with one C/C:?
I never use C/M, its spread always seems to always miss everything XD

 

[Lecic]

Ah so adding more weapons does increase your chances of a hit:?
So a PD turret with 4x C/C would be more likely to shoot down a missile than a turret with one C/C:?
I never use C/M, its spread always seems to always miss everything XD

Yes, just keep in mind that you should always have a barrel centered. When you have don't have a centered barrel, you'll often have the two cannon shots pass on either side of the missile. Multiple barrels won't increase your chances of shooting down a single missile. They just help with dealing with larger clouds. C/M works best when you have a lot of it on a lot of turrets, as it'll add an extra wall of cannon shots that can help thin out swarms.

 

[Madman198237]

C/C is for general AMS work, C/M should only be used (In my opinion) for close-in emergency PD. As in, not relied on, but kept around to give a better chance of taking out missiles that have gotten really close to your ship.