Docking should be split: Rails, Turret, Fixed

[ltmauve]

Sven's got the right idea here. "Build a spike" is ugly, still isn't universal for small ships. It's a simple mechanic, and I don't see why people are arguing against it.

 

[FullMetalFox]

I want the ability to land any ship on a given flat platform, be it a hanger or just a landing pad, regardless of the size and shape of the ship (based on location of the core for reference) as long as it fits based on collision without any fancy docking arms, docking collars, tubes, branches, cod pieces, whatever. Universal! If it fit's it docks, no questions asked.

Even if that type of docking is illogical? If you think about it, a player made standard like, just for example, Jaths idea, would become the new "universal" docking type. If somebody ignores that, its their own loss, same as if a ship is to big it wouldnt fit in your "universal flat" docking port.

So does this whole rant, come from nothing more than the personal wish of still being able to dock everything on a flat surface?

Why do you spent this amount of energy on just keeping the old system, instead of working out ideas that would implement the possibility of a similar docking mechanic into the new system?

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Even if that type of docking is illogical? If you think about it, a player made standard like, just for example, Jaths idea, would become the new "universal" docking type. If somebody ignores that, its their own loss, same as if a ship is to big it wouldnt fit in your "universal flat" docking port.

So does this whole rant, come from nothing more than the personal wish of still being able to dock everything on a flat surface?

Why do you spent this amount of energy on just keeping the old system, instead of working out ideas that would implement the possibility of a similar docking mechanic into the new system?

because the solution is here, tangible, and already in the game. All we ask is that it be adapted to the new mass based mechanics. The community can still build universal docking collars. keeping core centered docking around wouldn't harm your experience one bit. You could only gain with it continuing to exist.

If you want a new solution ask schema to finally get around to fixing the Plex Lander. but even then it would be a 3rd option rather than a replacement for core centered docking.

 

[jath]

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Even if that type of docking is illogical? If you think about it, a player made standard like, just for example, Jaths idea, would become the new "universal" docking type. If somebody ignores that, its their own loss, same as if a ship is to big it wouldnt fit in your "universal flat" docking port.

So does this whole rant, come from nothing more than the personal wish of still being able to dock everything on a flat surface?

Why do you spent this amount of energy on just keeping the old system, instead of working out ideas that would implement the possibility of a similar docking mechanic into the new system?

I never once said keep the old system (even though I am not apposed to it), I know it is being phased out. Is that the reason so many people fight this idea? Do you think I am fighting to keep the old system, which is kind of trash compared to the new? I am not. I have never once said we should keep the old docking system. The old docking system, however, did one type of docking very well. A type of dock that we cannot reproduce with the new system, everybody is quick to point out a way around this but nobody actually has a solution that matches the "If it fits, it docks" versatility of the old system. I really don't think I need to keep repeating myself. Unless somebody comes up with a solid solution to landing any ship on any flat platform I will keep pushing for core central docking.

I did also think of another idea back on topic to the splitting the dock types. Instead of adding a separate fixed dock, the rail docker would act as the fixed dock. Two rail dockers can mate with each other, making universal docking collars even easier as you would only need one block. The core central docking would also require you to dock to a rail docker placed on the mother-ship. This would be the magnetic point, it would be fixed and not allow for rail based movement. The ships lowest point would be touching the ground for those who don't like floating objects. Mass based enhancers would apply as well as all the collision checks to make sure the ship can actually fit.

 

[FullMetalFox]

I never once said keep the old system (even though I am not apposed to it), I know it is being phased out. Is that the reason so many people fight this idea? Do you think I am fighting to keep the old system, which is kind of trash compared to the new? I am not. I have never once said we should keep the old docking system.

The old system is core central docking. (With some stupid area enhancers slapped on top in vanilla, which every good server has disabled.)
So you are in essence pushing for keeping it, even in a way most people playing on good servers are familiar with currently (aka without the stupid area limitation)

The old docking system, however, did one type of docking very well. A type of dock that we cannot reproduce with the new system, everybody is quick to point out a way around this but nobody actually has a solution that matches the "If it fits, it docks" versatility of the old system. I really don't think I need to keep repeating myself. Unless somebody comes up with a solid solution to landing any ship on any flat platform I will keep pushing for core central docking.

The new system does exactly the "If it fits, it docks" kind of thing, just apparently in a differnt way than you want, as you just said yourself, you still want the illogical "no matter its shape, it can float on some flat surface pretending to be docked".

So right now it all boils down to a simple "I want!".

But why exactly is that? Why dont you just add your personal reasoning of to why exactly YOU want that?
Most players in chat, or for example everybody in my faction is excited for this new system, and they work around the new limitations it adds, for example by creating landing gears for their small ships to dock them on flat surfaces.
But you on the other hand, you have only listed generalized reasons so far, but none of your personal reasoning.

So no, i dont want you to repeat yourself, i want you to give us your personal reasons as to why you want to keep that old system, instead of reworking your ships and/or docking ports to work with the new system.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

The old system is core central docking. (With some stupid area enhancers slapped on top in vanilla, which every good server has disabled.)
So you are in essence pushing for keeping it, even in a way most people playing on good servers are familiar with currently (aka without the stupid area limitation)



The new system does exactly the "If it fits, it docks" kind of thing, just apparently in a differnt way than you want, as you just said yourself, you still want the illogical "no matter its shape, it can float on some flat surface pretending to be docked".

So right now it all boils down to a simple "I want!".

But why exactly is that? Why dont you just add your personal reasoning of to why exactly YOU want that?
Most players in chat, or for example everybody in my faction is excited for this new system, and they work around the new limitations it adds, for example by creating landing gears for their small ships to dock them on flat surfaces.
But you on the other hand, you have only listed generalized reasons so far, but none of your personal reasoning.

So no, i dont want you to repeat yourself, i want you to give us your personal reasons as to why you want to keep that old system, instead of reworking your ships and/or docking ports to work with the new system.

"Even in a way most people playing are familiar with" There you have it, there is one of the best arguments to date, it mimics what people are used to. Removing something people are familiar with and not replacing it with similar system will cause a lot of friction. Sure overall the new system is better and the old system was clunky but it worked and it was simple. I am not, I repeat I am not arguing for the old system to stay in the game. You can just stop saying I am as it is not true. My argument remains the same. Despite all the new amazing abilities the rail system gives us we lose one major docking type that the old system did very well. I also never once said the ship would float. The ship would dock in contact with the ground. The lowest point of the ship locked to the dock based on the position of the core. Yes this exact location may be air but there will be a point of contact between the ship and the dock, it's just wont have to be two docking blocks touching each other.

Also wanting to expand the system even further does not equal me not being excited for the new system. I am plenty excited for all the new awesome features plus do you know how many more tutorial videos this opens my channel up to? Adding this docking feature to the system does not take away from any creations you and your faction members are planning. It opens up docking possibilities that are currently not possible as the two systems are already locked out from be used together on the same ship. In other words, you lose nothing, and me and all my supporters gain. It's win win. I don't need to justify my personal reasons I am speaking as what I feel is best for the greater community. Once again you lose nothing by this being added. All other rail features will not be affected but I will gain the full functionality of my hanger again as well as many of my other structures not to mention anybody who has chimed in in support and plenty others who are not keyed into this debate.

 

[FullMetalFox]

"Even in a way most people playing are familiar with" There you have it, there is one of the best arguments to date, it mimics what people are used to. Removing something people are familiar with and not replacing it with similar system will cause a lot of friction. Despite all the new amazing abilities the rail system gives us we lose one major docking type that the old system did very well.

Thats not always the best thing. Just a silly analogy would be the current combat, missiles dominate everything, shields are so useless that they nearly dont exist, so every experienced PvP player is familiar and used to "ships murdering each other across sectors in seconds with alpha strikes", take that away, and its very likely that some people will get pissed.

Question for me is, in what direction does Schine want to go with Starmade? Do they want to keep it arcade like, do they want to make it a bit more realistic, do they want to make it more challenging in terms of build complexity?

Should they want to keep it overall arcade like, then i would say go for keeping core centered docking. If not, if they plan on making it more challenging or more realistic, then this type of docking would speak against it with either its simplicity or its unrealistic mechanic.

Dont get me wrong, i personally am neither for, nor against this type of docking. But im curious about the reasoning from both you and Schine. Which also brings me to this:

I don't need to justify my personal reasons

I never asked you to justify yourself, i just asked for your personal reasons. Thats two different things.

I am not, I repeat I am not arguing for the old system to stay in the game. You can just stop saying I am as it is not true.

That depends on the personal viewpoint, if you view the old system in its basic mechanic like i do, then you are, if you view it differently, then maybe not, that makes neither viewpoints true or false.

I also never once said the ship would float. The ship would dock in contact with the ground. The lowest point of the ship locked to the dock based on the position of the core. Yes this exact location may be air but there will be a point of contact between the ship and the dock, it's just wont have to be two docking blocks touching each other.

Unles thats only in Zero-G, it would be still illogical depending on the ships shape, no matter if its floating of touching. Again, this depends on what direction Schine wants to go.

Also wanting to expand the system even further does not equal me not being excited for the new system. I am plenty excited for all the new awesome features plus do you know how many more tutorial videos this opens my channel up to?

I never said that you wouldnt be exited about the new system, but since i dont know your personal reasons, i can only make guesses, naturly those guesses also include "just being to lazy to adapt".

Adding this docking feature to the system does not take away from any creations you and your faction members are planning. It opens up docking possibilities that are currently not possible as the two systems are already locked out from be used together on the same ship. In other words, you lose nothing, and me and all my supporters gain. It's win win. I don't need to justify my personal reasons I am speaking as what I feel is best for the greater community. Once again you lose nothing by this being added. All other rail features will not be affected but I will gain the full functionality of my hanger again as well as many of my other structures not to mention anybody who has chimed in in support and plenty others who are not keyed into this debate.

Some people might want to see it gone for the sake of immersion in terms of logical and/or realistic mechanics, or promoting more complex building, those viewpoints also exists among the community (again, not saying that i would share this viewpoint), so no matter what you do now with two completly different base mechanics, at least one side is going to lose, aka its not a win win.

 

[ltmauve]

I never said that you wouldnt be exited about the new system, but since i dont know your personal reasons, i can only make guesses, naturly those guesses also include "just being to lazy to adapt".

My reasons I support this? Fighters, shuttles, drones. Sutff <10m will benefit from this.
My reasons also include not having ugly spikes all over my landing bay, spikes which also reduce what can be docked there, and not wanting to have spikes on the bottom of my ships.

Some people might want to see it gone for the sake of immersion in terms of logical and/or realistic mechanics, or promoting more complex building, those viewpoints also exists among the community (again, not saying that i would share this viewpoint), so no matter what you do now with two completly different base mechanics, at least one side is going to lose, aka its not a win win.

So because a mechanic that has handled immersion fine up to now no longer works?
And how do you "lose" because there is an alternative to complex building?

What you are currently saying is "I don't like cake. No one else can have cake. Cake is unrealistic."
Newbies want cake (this mechanic is simple.) Drones want cake (this mechanic makes drones slightly cheaper.) Carriers want cake (this means that carriers are far easier to make because the flight deck doesn't have to be redone every time the fighter design is changed.) There is no reason not to have cake.

 

[iceman6491]

... cake...cake... Cake ...cake ... cake ... cake ... cake.

I'm stuck at work and now I want cake... thanks...

Just gonna put it out there - variety is usually a good thing

 

[FullMetalFox]

My reasons I support this? Fighters, shuttles, drones. Sutff <10m will benefit from this.
My reasons also include not having ugly spikes all over my landing bay, spikes which also reduce what can be docked there, and not wanting to have spikes on the bottom of my ships.

Thank you for sharing your reasons. (And no, this is not sarcasm)
Offtopic advice on drones though, with rails you can now make auto-launching and auto-reloading drone bays, so far in my experience they work better than the old racks or classic hangars, so might be worth trying that out if you like to use drones.

So because a mechanic that has handled immersion fine up to now no longer works?
And how do you "lose" because there is an alternative to complex building?

What you are currently saying is "I don't like cake. No one else can have cake. Cake is unrealistic."
Newbies want cake (this mechanic is simple.) Drones want cake (this mechanic makes drones slightly cheaper.) Carriers want cake (this means that carriers are far easier to make because the flight deck doesn't have to be redone every time the fighter design is changed.) There is no reason not to have cake.

As ive said, this isnt my view point, so im not saying "I don't like cake. No one else can have cake. Cake is unrealistic.", but i can understand the reasons why some people were happy about core centered docking being removed in the future. For example one reason ive heard for this is how unrealistic it is, some people would be happy if its gone as they perceive it as immersion breaking.
Again, this is not my view point or opinion, but i can understand those people.

 

[NeonSturm]

Drones want cake (this mechanic makes drones slightly cheaper.)

They should not need to want cake. A min size is good for balance :p

Just gonna put it out there - variety is usually a good thing

+1

 

[ltmauve]

some people were happy about core centered docking being removed in the future.

It isn't so much that core-centered docking should be removed as it had annoying limitations. To continue the baking analogy:

We had, with the box-based system, poorly made cupcakes.
Now, we are getting much better cookies and candy.
Some of us see that cupcakes can actually be delicious if made with good ingredients. However, some people don't want cupcakes because they've only had poorly made cupcakes.

Offtopic advice on drones though, with rails you can now make auto-launching and auto-reloading drone bays, so far in my experience they work better than the old racks or classic hangars, so might be worth trying that out if you like to use drones.

Yeah I know that deploying drones will be easier with the new system. But not needing docking clamps for every drone (which are disposiable, and probably will be to a certain extent even in the final game.) is icing on the cake.

Why does any ship need to dock on a flat surface? It's space. Just have a walkway or ramp extend to any point on the ship that you want it to connect to. The old way of thinking about docking is about to be dead altogether.

Let's take a look at my cruiser's hanger. There are about 20 docking ports in there, and they overlap, so that I can dock fighters, shuttles, shuttlepods, drones, manitance craft of all sizes in there. If I was to put in sticks to fit crafts without flat bottoms, that would mean that larger craft wouldn't be able to dock because of the ugly sticks going everywhere.

To answer your question, because docking sticks are ugly and they interfere with multi-use docking.

 

[FullMetalFox]

It isn't so much that core-centered docking should be removed as it had annoying limitations.

Thats propably true for most people, but ive seen the "unrealistic" reasoning a couple times in chat when this was made public.

If I was to put in sticks to fit crafts without flat bottoms, that would mean that larger craft wouldn't be able to dock because of the ugly sticks going everywhere.

To answer your question, because docking sticks are ugly and they interfere with multi-use docking.

Huh, sticks, that actually gave me an idea: Imagine if there would be some kind of logic sensor that can "sense" a nearby rail docker, and then extend a docking arm until it reaches the docker. This would need some additional logic and a plan to build it, or to make it simple a new type of block that has some kind of extending scaffolding with a docking plate on it.

Just food for thoughts, as i currently dont have that much time right now. (Might pick up the idea for further theorizing later)

 

[Lecic]

I understand not wanting to have spikes on your ships for docking, but... couldn't you have retractable landing gears? You could also have a docking spike that goes out however many blocks you need it to on the main station/ship.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Yeah there is not much in Starmade that is considered realistic so I don't see why docking should be held to that standard. The biggest complain I saw about the old system was not being able to dock ships because they couldn't figure out how to make a box big enough or they had an oddly placed core. Rails fixes that, point A -> point B.

I understand not wanting to have spikes on your ships for docking, but... couldn't you have retractable landing gears? You could also have a docking spike that goes out however many blocks you need it to on the main station/ship.

Most logic circuits are not an option on small craft. There is also no way currently to dock a ship to another ship using extending landing gear. The dock has to be on the mother-ship for that ship to dock.

I never asked you to justify yourself, i just asked for your personal reasons. Thats two different things.

Hasn't my reasons been clear? Okay let me think of yet another way of putting it... The new system has a gaping hole in it's capabilities for a specific type of ship. Starmade is a sandbox game and should be designed in a way that can encompass as many designs as possible. Of course you cannot sacrifice other aspects in order to accommodate but the proposed system doesn't do that.

I never said that you wouldnt be exited about the new system, but since i dont know your personal reasons, i can only make guesses, naturly those guesses also include "just being to lazy to adapt".

No need result to insults here. It's not about me being lazy, it's about there not being a solution. I've already said many times there is no way in the current system to make a hanger that can accommodate every ship that flys through the doors without me redesigning the hanger for every specific ship type it may encounter, which is not an option. The majority of my ships have a flat bottom that can easily sport a rail docker. Yes I personally do not want to be forced to slap a rail docker onto every single fighter design and then not be able to land when they are damaged but if I have to I will.

 

[FullMetalFox]

Yeah there is not much in Starmade that is considered realistic so I don't see why docking should be held to that standard.

Like i said, i have seen this reasoning in chat, and again we dont know where schine wants to got in the end, many of the "unrealistic" stuff currently could just be unrealistic due to being placeholders or simplified versions of the final implementation, we dont know.

Hasn't my reasons been clear? Okay let me think of yet another way of putting it... The new system has a gaping hole in it's capabilities for a specific type of ship. Starmade is a sandbox game and should be designed in a way that can encompass as many designs as possible. Of course you cannot sacrifice other aspects in order to accommodate but the proposed system doesn't do that.

So far, your generalized reasons are clear, and ive picked up some of your personal reasons from your lines:
1. "I will gain the full functionality of my hanger"
2. "a hanger that can accommodate every ship that flys through the doors without me redesigning the hanger for every specific ship type it may encounter"
3. "Yes I personally do not want to be forced to slap a rail docker onto every single fighter design and then not be able to land when they are damaged"

No need result to insults here. It's not about me being lazy, it's about there not being a solution.

That hardly classifies as an insult, thats just me explaining why im asking for your personal reasons, with out knowing them i can only guess what those are, and since i dont know you personaly, every reason is possible. Like listed above, you have stated 3 personal reasons scattered in your replies, which makes me wonder why its so hard to just list them up like for example Itmauve did, so of course that makes me question and guess all sorts of things, from a psychological perspective not wanting to list those could even be a sign for you not wanting to reveal part of your personal reasons, so of course im come up with "being lazy" and many other speculations as they all are reasonable possibilities.

 

[jath]

I'm going stir crazy right now because i left in the middle of this debate and now i have a design for your ships that you'll all love. A universal docking stick that looks good and doesn't get in the way of anything.

 

[ltmauve]

I'm going stir crazy right now because i left in the middle of this debate and now i have a design for your ships that you'll all love. A universal docking stick that looks good and doesn't get in the way of anything.

Oh really?

 

[jath]

Oh really?

I'll show you on Monday