Discussion: perks for smaller ships

[Lesterzz]

These are some pretty terrible ideas. OF COURSE bigger ships are MUCH better than little ships. 5 Giant ships versus 5 little ships, oh gee they should have an equal fighting chance. With a big ship the turning speed is slow and 1 person can\'t shoot down a lot of little ships very fast, if you get swarmed by little ships when you have this huge thing you get destroyed completely if there\'s enough of them.

The only problem is that there is is that you can shoot down little ships easily as they come close to you which you could fix by making little ships have a higher max speed but that would require some sort of warp drive as well since you can\'t just travel 10 days when a little ship takes 1 day for the same distance, that\'d be ridiculous.

One time I was getting attacked in my 22k shield regen ship by about 10 pirates and 1 of them had a \'large\' size ship (if mine was huge it\'d be a large one) and I had to run away because my shields were getting broken and I couldn\'t prioritize anything. Basically the power of little ships should be speed and ability to swarm you.

 

[BeefBacon]

OF COURSE bigger ships are MUCH better than little ships. 5 Giant ships versus 5 little ships, oh gee they should have an equal fighting chance


You\'ve clearly not understood the point of the thread. The point is that larger ships have no disadvantages. In just about every other space-themed game, every ship has its advantages and disadvantages. Capital ships, for example, are slow and unwieldy. Fighters might be weak but they\'re able to avoid capital ship weapons and some of them, bombers for example, carry weapons specifically designed to damage capital ships. As it stands, large ships have a slow turning circle, but that doesn\'t matter when they go from 0 - 75 (the usual speed cap) in just over a second. If your ship is smaller, you often stand no chance of dealing any damage to a larger ship. I had about 6 mid-sized ships attacking a behemoth that was comprised mosly of shields and weapons. They didn\'t even damage the shields; in fact it was often able to stay out of range because of its ridiculous acceleration.

So you\'ve got a massive, indestructible, devastatingly powerful warship that darts around like a hoverfly on crack but, don\'t worry, it turns slightly slower than smaller ships.

I believe that each ship should have its pros and cons. Larger ships should be vulerable to smaller ships in some ways, and smaller ships should be vulnerable to larger ships in others. Larger ships should still be objectively \'more powerful\' in terms of firepower and shields, but I think that smaller ships should be given abilities and weapons that allow them to at least scratch the paint.

Of course I understand that the game is in alpha, but I think it\'s important to address issues as they come.

 

[MrNo]

BeefBacon: Minor correction, max ship speed by default is 50. Many servers will raise it to something higher.



But anyways, yes. Most capital ships move too fast. I\'ve developed ways of changing max speed to prevent this, but I\'m too lazy to find them and copy-paste them here. It\'s on an old suggestions post of mine, if you want to look for it.

Lesterzz: Large ships are supposed to be more powerful than fighters, yes. The current issue is that they are MUCH too powerful. There is no reason not to make a larger ship: It\'s not like fighters can sneak inside some crack in your defenses, punch a whole into a little part of your ship with enough concentrated fire; fighters are USELESS as anything but cannonfodder (and not very good at that). In the game, as it is, there is no reason not to just build as large a ship as you can, with as many AMC\'s and shield generators as you can, because nothing wins fights right now but firepower. And since every other weapons system is garbage vs. shields, there\'s absolutely no point in using anything but AMC\'s either. Of course, the large ships can fit the most AMC\'s onboard.

There is no way, in the current versions, that any number of fighters less than 20 is going to have the slightest chance of taking down a gargantuan, tanky, cruiser. Their damage output is dwarfed in comparison to the cruiser\'s shield regen rate (something else which needs a nerf).

 

[Dead_videos]

When it comes to really big ships im a proponent of the Star Wars mentality which is, fly around and wait for your fleet\'s big ship to disable the shields on the enemies big ship, meanwhile use your fighters to kill your enemies fighters, then as soon as the big ship\'s shields are down thanks to a right pummeling from your ally all the fighters/bombers swarm over the big ship doing as much damage as possible.

If someone builds a better shield then you need to build a better weapon, It\'s called an arms race and the same thing applies to Star made.

Also i\'m highly in favor of a shipyard block (and enhancers) being required to build really big ships and that the shipyard requires time based off of either the mass, the cost, or the file size ( the calbiri scale) to build that ship.



But now another part of me has to say, the game is in alpha guys, and so far the devs have managed to bring us this wonderful game, a little trust that they can fix any issues without our input should be given.



Also someone earlier mentioned Boarding craft, i am highly in favor of this, but it won\'t really work until we have hand held weaponry.

 

[BeefBacon]

i have absolute trust in the devs. Been playing this game for barely a week and I\'m hooked. In the event that the devs see this thread maybe they\'ll take some ideas from it, or they\'ll be assured that what they plan on doing is something that people already want. Indeed, the suggestions thread is here for people to suggest features and changes, as obvious as some of those required fixes and additions may seem.

When it comes to the arms race I agree, to a point, but I don\'t think that battles should boil down to who\'s got the biggest ship. Strategy should play a role. There should be fighters that are specifically designed to deal damage to a capital ship, but at the same time, those fighters are vulnerable to other ships that are designed to take down fighters, and in turn those ships are vulnerable to other weapons. To build a ship that would be effective against all ship types would require immense mass, which plays in to futher reduction of ship speed and turn rate. As such, the arms race plays across the enire fleet, with smaller ships supporting a large, slow, but powerful capital ship; protecting it from smaller ships that can actually deal damage to it, rather than letting two capital ships duke it out alone.

 

[captainwolf]

I would say that maybe with ships over a certain size it would take much longer for the ship to regen it\'s shields?

Or that ships over a certain size take more damage from missles fired by ships smaller than that size?

 

[Charlie_]

Welp I had completely forgotten that you cannot remove blocks from a ship when someone\'s in the core, therefore yes, boarding is terribly silly as long as the pilot mans the ship... And why would he stop manning the ship if, even inside, you can\'t remove anything.

Like Dead_Videos said, we\'ll have to wait for hand held weaponry and that moving-ship-teleporting-onboard-passengers-in-outer-space thing to work before boarding becomes a viable tactic. Can\'t wait for it though

 

[Kracksquatch]

Thinking about some games that ive enjoyed playing as far as space combat goes my mind goes to Wing Commander. Good old torpedoes. In short much larger, slower missiles (though capable of catching up with a capitol ship, i would also say large/huge ships are currently way too fast) that are designed to bypass the shields of their target and hit the hull. to give an ideas as to what i mean by larger think a ship core with an ai with 2 of the explosives jammed on the end (effectively making a 1x1x4 kamakazie ship) Given the size its only fair that they could be shot down, and thats where the small fighters shine as chances are the huge monster ship wouldnt see it coming to shoot it down themselves. I would also say that maybe make the launcher size be a block 3x3x6 (why not?) They could be staked like anyother weapon but in 3x3x6 chunks. thus a large ship could have larger torpedoes that what a fight could carry. Also given the size required for the launcher most small craft could probably only carry maybe 2 before mass starts becoming an issue and defeats the point of having a fighter.

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[MrWiggly]

big ships are meant to be OP they are slow tho and suffer from power drain issues making it hard to move and shoot.

smaller ships are always going to be weaker but have the advantage by being faster. i have taken out large ships in smaller one simply by staying in its blind spot and weakening it with BB missles and blasters.

a group of well organised fighers can easily take a huge battle ship.

they dont need a nerf, you just need better tactics.

 

[KuramaFox]

I have a suggestion topic with a viable \"fix\"

http://star-made.org/content/split-engines-different-types-different-effects-also-add-item-levelstiers

Specifically, the second of the two suggestions in the topic. Having say, 3 tiers of major items (there are already effectively two in-game for hull parts via their hardened versions) means that for people with middle-range wealth levels, you can pick whether you want an advanced-part, costly small ship, or a larger ship with cheaper parts.

Don\'t get me wrong, in the end large ships still win since an \"endgame\" player with WAY too much money can afford to build a giant dreadnought with full Tier-3 equipment. But the players who don\'t have a trillion credits would have more flexibility to go for the size they want. And also the more exact appearance they want (they could make a mostly Tier-1 ship, but put Tier 2 or Tier 3 parts in the turrets so they can have a lot of power in them without the turrets being giant oversized things).

 

[Damiann47]

Battles are not fought straight up where ships just sit there hammering at eachother, you got three dimensions use them. That larger ship is much slower then that fast, small fighter so there is no threat from the main guns. When it comes to turrets, again you got three dimensions, use the actual ship for cover if you can. Plus unless they are massive they generally don\'t have a lot of sheilding or firepower in the first place. Now for destroyng the ship, that task should be beyond the ability of a single fighter, that fighter is better fighting against other fighters, or providing support to whatever could destory the large ship.

 

[Ixalite]

The answer to shields SHOULD be Disintegrators.



Have a new type of docking module, that \"throws\" the ship forward when it undocks, and only has a 1 block area. Make the small torpedo ships (with disintegrator warheads) dock to anything from heavy bombers to massive cap ships. Suddenly, there is a counter to shields (which ARE OP) and a purpose to AI point defense turrets.

The problem with this is that shields totally ignore disintegrators, even though it is quite difficult to hit a large vessel with one (without suiciding). If you have a giant ball of them, 100 or more, you may have enough to overpower the shield threshold; but you need about one bomb for every shield on the target ship.

TLDR: COUNTER SHIELDS WITH DISINTEGRATORS.

 

[Legopizza101]

The game utilizes the large numbers of an object grouped together. Limiting the use of a certain cannon or whatever may cause problems with this feature. But yes i like the idea of having more powerfull small ships.





Heres my idea and idk if anyone else said it cuz i didnt read anyone elses...



Anyway: any new weapons that come should include this: Mass Limitation.

The weapons and etc. should only work on ships that are within each item\'s mass limit. For instance say the Antimatter Cannon had a mass limitation of number *n*. If ship A had a mass greater than *n* it can;t use it. If ship B has equal to or lesser mass it can use it. or vice versa.



This is another idea: weapon reload times should decrease as ship size increases. This stops people from getting these powerfull ships because it would take twice the credits and time to create the same fire speed etc.



Just my take on it.

 

[Nootau]

I find it odd that most people forget that when you boost smaller ships fighting larger ships, they are boosting capital ships fighting smaller ships like Corvettes and Frigates. If you are asking why, it is simple. Bobby AI. Carriers, yes I do love them, and many other ships of their class use Turrets. Turrets are most often FAC or Corvette class crafts docked to Capital ships. Let me go over them point by point.

Capped Shield Strength
This idea is great in theory with the current ship design, but also it fails to balance the evolution of building. Capital class vessels would find their work around of this limit with the Modular Battleship tactic of using docked ships as segments of its own, the size of these segments would be in respect to the most efficent and limits of the shield caps.

Capped Weapon Damage/Fire Rate
This does not really hurt capital ships when currently a good section of people cap indivisual Antimatter Cannon arrays to doing intervals of 200 or 400 damage as this all that is needed to break any block in two hits or instantly, any additional damage is currently a wast and would serve better in a different array.

Limited number of Weapon Blocks
This is nice in theory and limits weapons like the ThunderClap as a main gun, but this does not limit what a Capital class vessel could do, it would just enforce the idea of having additional Turrets, some set to On Lockon and other set to Any.

Siffer Mass Mobility Penalties
This is something that cannot boost Turrets but this does boost Bobby fighters which are more often than not FAC or Corvette ships, which would be smaller than the attacking Frigates. It would be an amusing twist to have Bobby Fighters being more agile and out manuvering fighter pilots, though this would not be a pleasing day for the Frigate when a Carrier could simply release small squads of Bobby FAC fighters to fight and hunt down the Frigate even after they disengage from the Carrier.

 

[Soggydog]

The way I see it space combat in this game should be a lot like the Pacific Theater of WWII. There were no shortage of capital ships there, but a very large portion of ships lost were torpedos\' doing (be they dropped by aircraft, destroyers, or PT boats) As the game stands today the 18 inch battleship gun is the only viable option and small ships are just bugs to be squashed.

So how do we implement torpedos?

• Torps can be carried by anything. However; they cannot be aimed with the mouse, making them more useful on smaller ships
• Torps are low velocity. This makes them very bad Anti-fighter weapons.
• Torps are much like Dis-Intigrators in the aspect that they are one-shot weapons. They are however much more stable and will not explode until armed or destroyed.
• Torps do very high damage, but the blast is concentrated and does not affect a large area
• To balance out these disadvantages torpedos deal immense damage, not in the fact that they\'re mega-missles, but in the fact that they largly ignore any sort of sheilding.

I do imply that one fighter should be able to take out a cap ship in one go. I mearly mean to create something that allows any ship to qucikly do minor damage to a cap ship. Torpedos should not blow a ship in half, but they should be able to kill engines, guns, cockpits, and other critical componets. This would allow small ships to defend themselves, and give them something more then a scout role in combat actions.

 

[Dracorean]

The bigger the ship the harder it should be to manuver, having to rely on turrets to fight smaller more manuverable vessels. A cap in things like shields probably isn\'t a good idea, but maybe a diminishing effectiveness with thrusters applying thrust to a ship. When a certain number of thrusters are placed on a ship (In the case big ships need more) it should lose its effectiveness on larger mass objects. Course it would still be useful to have more thrusters but it will just lose effectiveness on larger ships.

When comparing a small ship to a large ship, the only good thing about small ships is that there can be allot of them, and that they move fast. A large ship is suppose to be tanky and heavily armed. Downside to a small ship is what makes large ships better, and downsides to a large ship is what makes small ships better.

So really its not about limiting how big a ship is, its weapons, shielding and whatnot, its about making big ships a little more sluggish, as they are suppose to be.

 

[tear151]

Could you perhaps comment there what you think of my ideas op?

 

[Benjamintruth]

Why does everyone want to rain on my capital ship parade? If you want to make small ships better, why not boost small ships instead of making big ones less powerful?

How about making very large energy regen with only a few blocks, that maybe slows down after 1 or 2 hundred? This way small ships would be able to use stealth and jammers, and still have hull and plenty of functional blocks- a small, manuverable jamming ship would reak havoc on a large ship, it\'d be immune to turrets and the large vessle would have no way of turning to face it.

 

[Morrigi]

You lost me at artificial limits on anything. Nope.