Discussion : How to improve game combat ?

[jorgekorke]

For some time, Starmade combat (with exception of fighters) is like a Ragnarok Online clone - the first one to fire the first shot, will OHKO the enemy and win, rendering big ship battles, that are fairly long and epic on other space games/stories to last just a few seconds here.

How can we change this reality ?
Discuss.

 

[Mered4]

We have a few options, and they all involve overhauling the current system:

1. Tailor the balance to favor medium - large vessels, some equipped with drone swarms, each piloted by a player.
2. Encourage all kinds of vessels of almost all sizes with a simple threshold for usefulness (e.g. 5k mass). Then tailor the balance so all these vessels are inherently useful. The result should be something closer to EVE. It would require AI Fleet control to be fairly sophisticated, at least compared to what we have now (which is basically nothing).

Etc Etc. There are many options here that I haven't thought of quite yet, but I'm sure others have.

In any change, we need to have turrets share their mothership's shields and be considered a part of the ship. This would encourage both oversized and beefy turrets and tiny *drone* turrets. And we also need turret turning speed fixed. :D

 

[Criss]

Well I imagine the hull HP system will address some of these issues. Somehow people continue to forget that it is coming. I would like to see the effect it has before we start coming up with more ideas. Frankly making the simple change of having AI or missiles target the ship as a whole instead of just the core would be a massive change.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Apart from what vanhelzing said, I think there are too many effects going in one direction and only one going in the other.
Currently(and even with the HP system around) there'll be 2 damage "sponges", hull and shields (both HP in the HP system and the blocks themselves are counted as hull). Pierce, punch-through, explosive, missiles as primary, pulse as primary, cannons as secondary are all designed against hull. Some reduce shield damage, buff hull damage or reduce the wasted damage dealt to an already dead block. The only effect that is designed against shields is ion. How shall the ion effect "balance" out pierce, punch-through, explosive, missiles, pulse and cannons? And since some primary weapon systems are balanced against hull, all effects and secondaries applied to them are too. The cannon as a secondary is also balanced against blocks as it increases RoF and thus reduces the damage wasted on a dead block, turning all primaries and effects applied to them against hull too.

A viable way to prevent this? idk.
In case of pulse as a secondary I can thing of something:
the damage-increase curve has a sharp upward bent right after the cooldown of the weapon is longer than the under-fire timeout.(cheap and easily circumventable, but I have no better idea)

Another way would be to increase the percentage of the under-fire shield-regeneration, so the player, who was shot at first, hasn't lost from the first "turn".

 

[jorgekorke]

Well I imagine the hull HP system will address some of these issues. Somehow people continue to forget that it is coming. I would like to see the effect it has before we start coming up with more ideas. Frankly making the simple change of having AI or missiles target the ship as a whole instead of just the core would be a massive change.

We have no idea of how this will be implemented, could be something very good like bringing an end to core-drilling, or could be a secound shield. Either way, this will not solve the OHKO nature combat is currently. A ship without shields, on most of the sci-fi franchises, is about getting close to meet it's doom, so we cannot expect much of it.

 

[Thalanor]

Weapon damage compared to shield damage scales too well, and weapon damage compared to armor damage is just ridiculous.

 

[jayman38]

Most other space battle games have pre-made ships, which are designed with heavy RP in mind, so that the player isn't vaporized repeatedly on the first sortie (wouldn't be fun). The only exceptions might be special "boss" dreadnaughts that can hit extra-hard. You'd pretty much have to somehow enforce 50% non-utility blocks in a build to match with other space games. Our ships are superior, because we don't need 200 crewman per ship, we don't need 50 bunkbeds (hotbunking ftw), and we don't need a dozen bathrooms to support all those people. All we need is our big "wave motion" cannons.

Warning: TVTropes is addictive and can contain harsh language:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WaveMotionGun

 

[Snk]

1. Guys, the combat in EvE sucks. It's all computer controlled. God forbid we ever end up with a point and click game like EvE, Amen.
2. Direct system management/crewability would make combat way more interesting. It would mean several players/AI working together on a ship and somehow managing each of the systems to gain a slight advantage over the enemy. A life support system would become a primary target. Think Star Trek/FTL.
3. Optimizations/Aesthetics. We need better explosions and weapon effects, and if the game runs smoothly combat is much more fun.
4. Improve Anti-missile AI.
5. Make the turn speed of missiles inversely proportional to how much damage it is done, but make them have more HP. Makes a more balancing effect for missiles, so you couldn't insta-nuke a fighter.
6. Missile HP that is proportional to how much damage it does.
I won't address the length of fights, as that will probably be addressed with the HP update anyways.

 

[Criss]

We have no idea of how this will be implemented, could be something very good like bringing an end to core-drilling, or could be a secound shield. Either way, this will not solve the OHKO nature combat is currently. A ship without shields, on most of the sci-fi franchises, is about getting close to meet it's doom, so we cannot expect much of it.

Except the hull HP system is meant to completely combat the whole notion of core-killing. So...yeah. It will remove OHKO from the game. And if that fails when then I would be completely surprised by the devs inability to fix something like this. My last statement already described a change that would increase the longevity of ships in combat.

People are coming up with all these ideas. It's good that players care. But I have a feeling this is one of the things the devs have thought a lot about and until proven wrong, they will have their mind set on a solution. I would like to see what they have before I come up with more stuff. There's plenty of people here that seem to think they are correct. I for one will be listening to the guys that know the game from the inside out. At the end of these threads there are dozens of final solutions. It get's convoluted and we haven't really gotten anything out of it.

 

[aceface]

1. I want thrust to be a lot more powerful in the forward direction and a lot weaker in the other directions, so that it doesn't end up making one ship go backwards at the same speed someone tries to chase it, resulting in the guy who has the better shields and weapons wins.

2. I think fighters turn way too fast. I think big ships turn okay though. I want small ships to by default turn slower, and that the scaling to the turn hard cap be also slower. Why? Because having so fast turning really makes no need to have a proper dogfight. You just aim at the opponent, and that's it.

Check this video of me fighting some ships in the game Elite Dangerous. I think that the combat there is so much more superior than that in StarMade, and StarMade could learn a thing or two from them. Turning is not so frikken fast and the thrust is a lot more powerful in the forward direction resulting in having to do maneuvers to actually get a good shot at your opponent;

 

[CyberTao]

Except the hull HP system is meant to completely combat the whole notion of core-killing. So...yeah. It will remove OHKO from the game. And if that fails when then I would be completely surprised by the devs inability to fix something like this. My last statement already described a change that would increase the longevity of ships in combat.

So how does HP work? Will it be akin to a second shield with a layer of hull giving greater HP? Remember the original Pierce was made with the HP system in mind iirc, it's perk was that it could go right through the outer layers of hull, whereas Punch could not, so what do you think that means for the HP system?

The only thing I know about the HP system was that Pierce was made with that in mind, which implies hull would be buff to something like a second shield. There isn't enough info to understand how it could change anything. If it's not a second shield, you could jump in, break the shields and core a ship before he notices, you could still jump in, break the shields and cripple the ship to the point where it couldn't really do anything. It would just make the death longer, not the real battle.

Besides, the HP update is several months away, and people are bored with combat now. Not that any fix would happen any faster, but it's why people make these topics, because combat makes the game interesting for them, and it just isn't right now.


Apart from that, more options for the configs, or even a guide for it, would help in the meantime. It's only at large ship sizes that things get ridikulass, so an option to try and curve weapon damage or such in the configs would work in conjunction with the increased power cost per group (and maybe a slight shield buff) could make mid-sized ship combat more interesting for now. Apparently there are people who figured out how to curve power costs on weapons, something I didn't know was possible and no idea how to do.

 

[Keptick]

Easy, just increase shield capacitor values. Right now, the time to kill between a weapon blob and shield blob of the same size is around 3 or 4 seconds (and that's without considering missiles, which have much better burst damage). Weapon and shield damage/absorbtion values are just completely disproportionate at the moment.

The problem comes from a previous update. Shields were heavily boosted with the weapon update to account for the massive burst damage of nukes (which has been fixed recently). However, capacity and regen hadn't been seperated at the time, so ships had a huge amount of regen and simply could'nt power their shields. Shields were then reduced to counteract this problem but it was a classic over-nerf, with weapons depleting shields of the same mass in a few seconds.

However, with capacity and regen now being seperated into two blocks I seriously believe that it's time to increase shield CAPACITY values (to multiple times what it is now). That way you don't get invincible ships that can out-tank everything like last time. That'd just result in longer and more fun battles. Small ship VS big ships balance would stay the exact same, with less chance of one hit kills for the big ship (remember that regen stays the same too).

TL;DR Increase shield capacitor values by a good amount, keep regeneration the same.

Edit: I'd like to point out that this isn't the only change that is needed, but it's already a massive step in the right direction. Not to mention that it's a simple config change, takes 15 seconds to make.

 

[Criss]

If it's not a second shield, you could jump in, break the shields and core a ship before he notices, you could still jump in, break the shields and cripple the ship to the point where it couldn't really do anything. It would just make the death longer, not the real battle.

Two things to say here.

1: From what little calbiri told me, he doesn't think hull HP should be a second shield. If you shoot through the ship, then it should break. No "hull strength" to break through first. If he has had any influence on the HP system then we will not be getting a second barrier to break through before killing a ship. We all know that wouldn't solve anything anyways.

2: Taking out shields, piercing into a ship and shooting the core directly will not happen with this system. That's a little pointless and accomplishes nothing. My best guess at the health system is that once a percentage of the ships HP is destroyed then the core overheats. Just to clarify. Directly shooting the core will not kill it if 99% of the ship is intact. You would have to physically destroy hull/systems to actually kill a ship. Which is very much the opposite of what is currently required. Sniper weapons will be very ineffective eventually. Missiles would probably see even more value so I am hoping some sort of "miss" mechanic is introduced or something in order to lessen their value.

TL;DR Increase shield capacitor values by a good amount, keep regeneration the same.

This was brought up in a separate thread. Someone else and I both came to the conclusion that players would place less shield capacitors on their ships, get the same value in shield HP and then place more weapons on the ship. In the end I can take out enemy shields just as fast as before and it solves nothing. It's more complicated than just giving shielding more capacity per block.

From what Calbiri said, designing ships with internal structure would actually give it a benefit with the new health system. He specifically stated that ships with nice interiors and whatnot were placing more armor internally than "doomcubes" or even the average ship, and that would be a good thing with the new system. Even so, I tested out my latest ship recently. Apparently the fact that I have so many internal decks and so much more armor than usual meant my fights were longer. I was testing the Dragoon with chicken wildstyle recently. He took a smaller, yet more heavily armor ship against a few AI copies of the Dragoon. Apparently the armor was hard to chew through. He certainly did not end the fight with two missiles, which were capable of completely destroying the ship he was flying. I've tested this before. Armor has a lot more value than people think. The new health system and it's change to core-killing will certainly change how we build.

 

[CyberTao]

2: Taking out shields, piercing into a ship and shooting the core directly will not happen with this system. That's a little pointless and accomplishes nothing. My best guess at the health system is that once a percentage of the ships HP is destroyed then the core overheats. Just to clarify. Directly shooting the core will not kill it if 99% of the ship is intact. You would have to physically destroy hull/systems to actually kill a ship. Which is very much the opposite of what is currently required. Sniper weapons will be very ineffective eventually. Missiles would probably see even more value so I am hoping some sort of "miss" mechanic is introduced or something in order to lessen their value.

The point I was trying to make is that people already use missiles for most combat scenarios from what I hear, while the ship would not die instantly, computers are normally put near the core, or together. Even if computers are moved away, your missing large chunks of blocks and depending on the design of the ship, cripple the power storage, weapon systems, or passive effects to the point people are just trying to do some damage before their inevitable death. Ship would still be alive yes, but would be rendered next to useless if they ended up getting hit first in an important area, and those tend to be large due to the number of blocks needed.

I dunno, probably just a bit more balancing for missiles, speed wise and with PD accuracy. Missiles "miss"ing because of some out of control variable is kinda like adding a diceroll to the game. Dumbfire type are hard to hit far/fast objects with and lockons are negated by jamming iirc. Just heat seekers really.

 

[aceface]

that players would place less shield capacitors on their ships, get the same value in shield HP and then place more weapons on the ship. .

how do you know?

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Two things to say here.

1: From what little calbiri told me, he doesn't think hull HP should be a second shield. If you shoot through the ship, then it should break. No "hull strength" to break through first. If he has had any influence on the HP system then we will not be getting a second barrier to break through before killing a ship. We all know that wouldn't solve anything anyways.

2: Taking out shields, piercing into a ship and shooting the core directly will not happen with this system. That's a little pointless and accomplishes nothing. My best guess at the health system is that once a percentage of the ships HP is destroyed then the core overheats. Just to clarify. Directly shooting the core will not kill it if 99% of the ship is intact. You would have to physically destroy hull/systems to actually kill a ship. Which is very much the opposite of what is currently required. Sniper weapons will be very ineffective eventually. Missiles would probably see even more value so I am hoping some sort of "miss" mechanic is introduced or something in order to lessen their value.

If the HP system is entirely dependent on everything other than the core wouldn't fights boil down to taking out every single block on a ship? the only thing more annoying than getting cored is being forced to take out every single block of a 10 million block capital. has Calbiri said anything on HP being a kind of damage threshold? say when 80% of your ship is destroyed the core overheats?

 

[hzzzln]

1. I want thrust to be a lot more powerful in the forward direction and a lot weaker in the other directions, so that it doesn't end up making one ship go backwards at the same speed someone tries to chase it, resulting in the guy who has the better shields and weapons wins.

I remember reading somewhere that thrust will be changed so that you have to assign limited thrust ratios to your ship, so that one ship could never achieve max speed in all directions. Or am I making things up here?

Two things to say here.

1: From what little calbiri told me, he doesn't think hull HP should be a second shield. If you shoot through the ship, then it should break. No "hull strength" to break through first. If he has had any influence on the HP system then we will not be getting a second barrier to break through before killing a ship. We all know that wouldn't solve anything anyways.

2: Taking out shields, piercing into a ship and shooting the core directly will not happen with this system. That's a little pointless and accomplishes nothing. My best guess at the health system is that once a percentage of the ships HP is destroyed then the core overheats. Just to clarify. Directly shooting the core will not kill it if 99% of the ship is intact. You would have to physically destroy hull/systems to actually kill a ship. Which is very much the opposite of what is currently required. Sniper weapons will be very ineffective eventually. Missiles would probably see even more value so I am hoping some sort of "miss" mechanic is introduced or something in order to lessen their value.

This was brought up in a separate thread. Someone else and I both came to the conclusion that players would place less shield capacitors on their ships, get the same value in shield HP and then place more weapons on the ship. In the end I can take out enemy shields just as fast as before and it solves nothing. It's more complicated than just giving shielding more capacity per block.

From what Calbiri said, designing ships with internal structure would actually give it a benefit with the new health system. He specifically stated that ships with nice interiors and whatnot were placing more armor internally than "doomcubes" or even the average ship, and that would be a good thing with the new system. Even so, I tested out my latest ship recently. Apparently the fact that I have so many internal decks and so much more armor than usual meant my fights were longer. I was testing the Dragoon with chicken wildstyle recently. He took a smaller, yet more heavily armor ship against a few AI copies of the Dragoon. Apparently the armor was hard to chew through. He certainly did not end the fight with two missiles, which were capable of completely destroying the ship he was flying. I've tested this before. Armor has a lot more value than people think. The new health system and it's change to core-killing will certainly change how we build.

This sounds pretty cool. If the new system really works that way, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Criss]

how do you know?

Because that is what I would do if this system was implemented. Some people like to build ships that do massive damage. If I can reduce the number of shield blocks on my ship AND keep the same capacity to a certain extent then I would do that. Less mass used for shielding, more emphasis on other systems. With that, I can place more weapon systems, which means I can compensate for the fact that other ships now have X more shields than they have before. Suddenly that change in shield systems doesn't really seem to have accomplished much. Depending on the fight it could lead to ships killing each other even faster.

If the HP system is entirely dependent on everything other than the core wouldn't fights boil down to taking out every single block on a ship? the only thing more annoying than getting cored is being forced to take out every single block of a 10 million block capital. has Calbiri said anything on HP being a kind of damage threshold? say when 80% of your ship is destroyed the core overheats?

They wouldn't force us to do that. It might be a server settings at the worst. I'm betting there will be a damage threshold. 50% of a ship destroyedand it overheats for example. This system will likely tie in with blueprints. Actually the new health system would probably require the new shipyards. If there is a threshold for the damage then it could only really be determined by blueprints. That would mean we would have to limit blueprint creation to shipyards so people could not exploit creating new blueprints and therefore resetting their health mid-combat to "100%". But no I doubt they would force us to completely destroy all the blocks. We wouldn't be able to board / salvage or any of that and it would be a big loss for the game.

 

[jayman38]

You might encourage more heavier shields by adding a slight mass-, dimension-, or group-bonus for larger shield capacitor groups, with a softcap, just like with power generation. That might at least encourage a certain minimum shield amount for larger ships. ("Yep, got 'er up to 1.2 million shields and then started building the missile launchers after that....")

 

[jorgekorke]

Except the hull HP system is meant to completely combat the whole notion of core-killing. So...yeah. It will remove OHKO from the game. And if that fails when then I would be completely surprised by the devs inability to fix something like this. My last statement already described a change that would increase the longevity of ships in combat.

Losing a chunck of weapon blocks due to a missile will mean death anyway, it will only take 2-3 shots instead of one.