DISCUSS! Hull Repair/Regeneration

[Dellexe]

"Transferring power from non-critical systems to hull regeneration."

​

Hull regeneration/repair has been a feature of sci-fi for quite some time. Though not as popular an idea as shields, examples of hull regeneration can be found in Star Wars, Star Trek, EVE, Stargate, and a host of other movies, books, shows, and games.

Starmade is a Sandbox game. It is a game where players can choose how they want to play by mix and matching systems to build the ship they want to build. Right now, it fails in this regard relating to defensive systems. Shields are by far the best way to defend your ship compared to armor. They constantly prevent your ship from taking damage solely at the cost of power. Against this, a ship relying on a thick hull/armor to protect its vital systems has no way to soak up damage over time without needing to go to a shipyard for repairs.

My solution to this? Hull regeneration. Feel free to rip apart my current idea all you want, I want more input on this.

MY IDEA:
-Add 2 blocks. A Hull Regeneration Computer and a Hull Regeneration Module.

-To enable hull regeneration, the player must put a design/blueprint of their ship into the Hull Regeneration Computer to give the system a base to work off of.

-Then, as the ship loses hull blocks, the Hull Regeneration Computer compares the loaded design to what the ship has currently. Obviously this could cause some lag, doing this kind of block check, but lag could be reduced by putting the activation of the comparison on moderate timer, possibly increased/decreased based on the number of Hull Regeneration Modules.

-The Hull Regeneration Computer is linked to a storage block containing whatever armor blocks you need for your ship.

-Upon detecting that hull blocks are missing, the Hull Regeneration Computer grabs the necessary blocks from the linked storage module and begins replacing the destroyed sections of hull. Again, the rate of replacement could be raised/lowered by the number of Hull Regeneration Modules.

-This would still likely not be as attractive a solution as shields to many people, because whereas shields only consume power, a hull regeneration system would consume both power and physical resources, but it would at least become a reasonably viable option.

-Lastly, to make it so that shielded ships cannot simply install a hull-regeneration system on their ship (sorry Criss, no combined hull regen and shield regen like EVE), it could be made so that Hull Regeneration and Shields cannot coexist on the same entity, or that only one could be active at a time.


THOUGHTS?
Give input! Rip my ideas apart and give your own! I want some good discussion/debate here.

 

[Tunk]

Would be a nifty thing, especially if modules needed to be near, run dimensions or required shapes.
Eg:boxdim + 10% effect area for block replacement.

On the no shield restriction, my 'hull' generally doenst have shields anyway, I can literally slot this into most of my ships as is and benefit from both.

Also belongs in suggestions :p

 

[Dellexe]

I wanted it to be more of a discussion, rather than me submitting a real suggestion. After we've got a fair bit of discussion done and ideas have been passed around and refined, then I'll ask a mod to move it.
-
That's a good idea. Have the modules have to be in a certain proximity to the hull in order to be able to regenerate those sections, it would also allow counter-play, because concentrating fire on one section would destroy the the modules supporting that area's regeneration.

 

[Jaaskinal]

I think this could be pretty trolly right now against most weapons. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like cannons and beams are really, really bad at just breaking blocks, and missiles are unreliable at best.

 

[Lecic]

Definitely no. Hull should only be repaired at shipyards or with a bandaid application of hull after a reboot after battle.

 

[Dellexe]

I think this could be pretty trolly right now against most weapons. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like cannons and beams are really, really bad at just breaking blocks, and missiles are unreliable at best.

-
It would be extremely slow regeneration, not like blocks are reappearing faster than you can destroy them. Slow enough that concentrated fire could break through in roughly the same amount of time as it could with the current non-regenerating system. The only difference is that instead of nothing happening when you switch focus in the current system, if you leave the damaged section of hull alone for a few minutes you could come back to there being a small amount of armor back.
-
Think like 1 block gets placed every 8-13 seconds. Slow enough that pretty much any weapons can break blocks faster than the regen, but not so slow to be utterly useless in battle. Small ships taking on big ships with extremely thick armor would have problems, though. But how is that any different from the current shield meta?
-
-

Definitely no. Hull should only be repaired at shipyards or with a bandaid application of hull after a reboot after battle.

-
Care to explain why? I wanted this to be a discussion pointing out stuff wrong with my idea, not just telling me I'm wrong without giving reasons. Would it be OP? Would everyone use it and abandon shields? Would trolls use it somehow? What do you find to be the issues with this idea?

 

[Jaaskinal]

-
It would be extremely slow regeneration, not like blocks are reappearing faster than you can destroy them. Slow enough that concentrated fire could break through in roughly the same amount of time as it could with the current non-regenerating system. The only difference is that instead of nothing happening when you switch focus in the current system, if you leave the damaged section of hull alone for a few minutes you could come back to there being a small amount of armor back.
-
Think like 1 block gets placed every 8-13 seconds. Slow enough that pretty much any weapons can break blocks faster than the regen, but not so slow to be utterly useless in battle. Small ships taking on big ships with extremely thick armor would have problems, though. But how is that any different from the current shield meta?

I feel like it might fall to the same fate push effect passive and to a lesser extent shield rechargers have then, that they're useful to an extent but are overlooked because they're generally worse than just having another block that does another job, but compensates for the job of the others.

 

[Dellexe]

I feel like it might fall to the same fate push effect passive and to a lesser extent shield rechargers have then, that they're useful to an extent but are overlooked because they're generally worse than just having another block that does another job, but compensates for the job of the others.

-
Alright, good to know. That's something I honestly think is the biggest issue with this, that people will see it and just think "Why would I use this as opposed to shields?" And then it would just be a wasted block of wasted code.

 

[therimmer96]

I disagree with this idea as it is right now simply because I do not feel it would fit into ships as they are now. maybe if we get organic ships or something like that, but not right now. However, ways to improve the idea might be -

The same way shields have a combat timer, reducing their recharge, I feel this should be the same, except that the regeneration should not occur at all until you are out of combat.

Perhaps the regeneration could behave like a defensive effect, needing to be triggered, and the downside being that it shuts down all systems on teh ship while it is happening, as it is as far as I can tell, pretty much regening HP, so the mechanics should be similar.

Also, seeing as the ship will have a copy of the ships design and can use that to work it out easier, I believe that after a certain amount of the system is damaged, it is rendered inoperable, requiring manual repair or a shipyard, so that people with this system still have some use for static facilities.

Perhaps, playing itno the organic idea, it wouldn't replace shields, but there could be special "Organic hull" blocks that would look organic and be fairly weak, but have the ability to regenerate unlike ordinary hull, and only the hulls. no systems. Needs to be something to return to starbase for.

 

[Lecic]

Perhaps, playing itno the organic idea, it wouldn't replace shields, but there could be special "Organic hull" blocks that would look organic and be fairly weak, but have the ability to regenerate unlike ordinary hull, and only the hulls. no systems. Needs to be something to return to starbase for.

Organic hull would the best way to do this, imo, but that comes with the issue of implementing a huge number of block IDs. Personally, I'd be willing to replace, say, motherboards, with organic hull to save on IDs, but I doubt most people would be.

 

[sayerulz]

I would rather have more variety of hulls. Things like hulls that are stronger against energy weapons but weaker against missiles, or that can turn some of the energy from weapon strikes into power. Regenerating ships..... it just doesn't seem like it fits, and unless they regenerated at an OP rate, no one would want them over shields.

 

[Lecic]

I would rather have more variety of hulls. Things like hulls that are stronger against energy weapons but weaker against missiles, or that can turn some of the energy from weapon strikes into power.

I remember a suggestion a while back that would replace Basic/Standard/Advanced/Crystal with armor that was more resistant to Cannons/Beams/Missiles/Pulse instead. I sort of liked the concept, but it has the problem of removing armor tiers and requiring a huge number of new hulls if a new weapon type was added.

 

[therimmer96]

Organic hull would the best way to do this, imo, but that comes with the issue of implementing a huge number of block IDs. Personally, I'd be willing to replace, say, motherboards, with organic hull to save on IDs, but I doubt most people would be.

There are many older or unused blcosk that could be removed to make space for the new blocks. THe different colors of lava that appear in the adv. build mode list for example

 

[max stripe]

do it wraith style... organic ship components works wonders...
but make it have a half a mil power gen softcap so it isnt over powered (basicly the entire ship can regrow itself BUT it needs alot of juice to regrow systems)

 

[Lecic]

There are many older or unused blcosk that could be removed to make space for the new blocks. THe different colors of lava that appear in the adv. build mode list for example

I'm going to compile a list of IDs being occupied by unused, outdated items here. Probably going to make a thread on it as well.

Spoiler: IDs Occupied By Unused Items

214 Capsule Refinery Enhancer
216 Micro Assembler Enhancer
218 PowerBlock Factory Enhancer
222 Particle Press
260 Schemadyne-2000
261 Schemadyne-3000
255 Schemadyne-10000
256 Schemadyne-20000
257 Schemadyne-30000
258 Schemadyne Advanced
262 Mineral Separator
341 Bronze Bar
342 Silver Bar
343 Gold Bar
289 Docking Module
290 Docking Enhancer
7 Turret Docking Module
88 Turret Docking Enhancer
(The docking stuff probably shouldn't get removed for a bit)
292 Faction Hub (I think this one might be used on stations claimed as homebases, but don't quote me on that)
129 Burnt Orange Dirt
147 Orange Lava (so... normal lava?)
148 Orange Water
149 Orange Poison
130 Orange Dirt
131 Burnt Yellow Dirt
132 White Dirt
128 Blue Dirt
133 Purple Dirt
134 Burnt White Dirt
167 White Lava
168 White Water
169 White Poison
135 Red Dirt
136 Burnt Purple Dirt
175 Purple Lava
176 Purple Water
177 Purple Poison
137 Green Dirt
206 Burnt Yellow Dirt
183 Yellow Lava
184 Yellow Water
185 Yellow Poison
207 Burnt Green Dirt
187 Green Lava
188 Green Water
189 Green Poison
208 Burnt Blue Dirt
191 Blue Lava
192 Blue Water
193 Blue Poison
209 Burnt Red Dirt
195 Red Lava
196 Red Water
197 Red Poison
210 Burnt Black Dirt
199 Black Lava
200 Black Water
201 Black Poison
72 Black Dirt

And of course, everyone's favorite unused block...
65 Death Star Core

So, that's 62 (unless I counted wrong) unused IDs. That's enough for us to get a whole set of organic hull in all 10 colors, with 12 left over for a new hull color.

 

[Dellexe]

Thanks for more feedback, guys!
-
Organic hull blocks would be cool, I didn't mention them in this idea because of the block ID requirements of adding so many blocks, but if there's really this many unused block ID's then it becomes less of an issue, unless Schine has plans for said unused ID's.
As another balancing factor for this, it could be made that only standard or basic hull can be regenerated, not advanced if people think it would be too strong.
-
And this would only regenerate armor/hull blocks, not system blocks of any kind. And as Tunk stated further above, the modules could be required to be nearby the hull blocks in order to be able to repair them. You could also make these hull-regen modules extremely fragile so that once they're exposed they're basically instantly destroyed, even by fighters.
-
Also, as Max Stripe said, I initially came up with this idea because I'm currently building a full-size Wraith Cruiser that's a shieldless design, as Wraith ships do not use shields, but instead rely on an extremely dense organic hull that repairs itself over time. The quote in the OP is actually from an episode of Stargate Atlantis. :P
-
Why use this over shields? This would make it so that all the space required for shields and all the cost of getting all those shield blocks not required while still providing a slowly regenerating barrier to severe damage in the form of the outer hull. You can worry less about the cost in terms of money, resources, and space of all those shield blocks and have the space used more efficiently/cheaply.
-
Why use shields over this? With this system, even a small fighter has the potential to inflict damage to a ship. As a balance measure the hull regeneration would be fairly slow, so fighters could chip away at the slow to repair hull until they can bite into the vital systems underneath. Of course this risk could be mitigated with anti-fighter turrets/having a ship small enough to turn quickly on the nimble fighter, but with shields this threat can be almost totally ignored. And shields cost only energy to regenerate. In order to regenerate armor you would have to sacrifice both energy (the exact amount needs balancing) and the physical blocks you need to repair the hull.
-

 

[Valck]

Why use this over shields? This would make it so that all the space required for shields and all the cost of getting all those shield blocks not required while still providing a slowly regenerating barrier to severe damage in the form of the outer hull. You can worry less about the cost in terms of money, resources, and space of all those shield blocks and have the space used more efficiently/cheaply.

Actually you bring up a point there: Hull farming. Create once, and have free hull for the rest of your life...
Unless the regeneration takes up the same resources that replacing it traditionally would, I can't agree.
Of course there could be a requirement to link it up to storage containing prefabricated replacement hull, or food/nutrients if it's organic hull; that would change the equation.

Regenerating ships..... it just doesn't seem like it fits, and unless they regenerated at an OP rate, no one would want them over shields.

I like the idea of having an alternative to shields, as has been said, regenerating hull is a trope in many stories, and I think servers should have the option to choose either, or both.

 

[Dellexe]

Actually you bring up a point there: Hull farming. Create once, and have free hull for the rest of your life...
Unless the regeneration takes up the same resources that replacing it traditionally would, I can't agree.
Of course there could be a requirement to link it up to storage containing prefabricated replacement hull, or food/nutrients if it's organic hull; that would change the equation.

-
Look in the OP, I already talked about needing to replace them with actual blocks from a storage block. :P

 

[Valck]

-
Look in the OP, I already talked about needing to replace them with actual blocks from a storage block.

Point taken.

 

[max stripe]

-
Look in the OP, I already talked about needing to replace them with actual blocks from a storage block. :p

should just need power and nutrients if its organic