Designing space ships and creativity questions.

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    This goes out to the people who are very creative. I AM ENVIOUS OF YOUR CREATIVITY. I wish to know how people come up with their designs, i mean how do you picture things like that in your head? such as the space ship from the star made steam video? so much design, so much detail. looks awesome.

    Then there is my builds, i like to build them, But in comparison to others mine looks like something from the 70's found in a dumpster lol. Just kinda flat on all sides with no detail hardly...im clearly not very creative so i just wonder where you guys find or think up this kinda stuff to build such awe dropping ships and i'm like wal mart brand lol.... Truly envious of ppl who can create such beauty...is there any tips or something i could get?
     
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    A lot of people who struggle with creativity base them off of concept art or prexisting designs (stuff from films, games etc). Try searching for websites that have a lot of space ship artwork.
     

    Keptick

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    It mostly comes with practise, some people can just create beautiful creations without any prior experience, but that's pretty rare.

    Honestly? I'm probably not the best person to give advice since ideas just pop (and get obliterated) in my head all the time, but I'll do my best: Try to redo or modify something when it's unsatisfying or when/if you get a better idea. Getting something to look perfect on the first go is pretty hard, just keep refining that rough detail or shape. Again, practise helps to make less mistakes.

    Just keep polishing that rock, eventually you'll uncover the magnificent gem hiding under the thick crust ^_^

    Just going in the chat, posting pics and asking for advice can be really helpful too. A vast majority of the time people will be happy to give constructive advice! (asses are quite rare too)
     
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    Personally I build a frame of the ship first, and add more and more detail as I build.

    Like this:

    Evolved into this:


    Design can be a pain in the arse, I've had many terrible designs, myself. Essentially, try to get proportions right, and use wireframes to help visualise the ship. Do your planning in wireframe, that way it's much easier to change/improve it.
     
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    Here is a list of techniches that I use when building:
    • Steal other peoples designs. Seriously though, if you really like the way someones ships look, try to mimic their build style with your own ships. If the first one doesn't acheive what you are going for (it probably won't), look at it and figure out why it doesn't look how you want it to and then build another ship with those points in mind. Once you build a few ships with a certin builders ships as insperation, the build style will start to come to you naturally.
    • Also look around you, if you see something that has even the remotest posibility of being part of a space ship, be it a wine bottle, lamp shade, computer mouse, or other random stuff you see on a day to day basis, figure out how you could make it into an engine, or a bridge, or a little bit of greebling on the side of your ship, or even an entire ship.
    • Think about ships outside of the game. Think about bits of a ship until you have a fairly detailed idea of what you want it to look like before even starting to build in game. Not much else to say on this one.
    • As Crusade said, start with a wire frame when building ships. It really does make reshaping much simpler.
    • Graph paper is great for planning ship designs. I have a folder full of ship designs drawn out on graph paper for when ever I don't have fresh ideas for a new ship. drawing out ship designs on graph paper is good for when you have a good idea for a new ship but are already working on one. Take a break from the WIP and draw your ideas out on paper, writing down a breif discription of what you want certin parts to look like can also really help you create a mental picture to help you build.
    Hope this helps :)
     

    Lecic

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    I usually draw a design first. You don't have to be a good artist, it's just a general doodle! Then, build a wire-frame of what you want the ship to generally look like, and fill it in as you go.

    http://ship.shapewright.com/ is also a very helpful tool. Randomly generated ships from a wide collection of parts. You can use this to find ship designs you like! Personally, I think the ships it builds are too bulky most of the time, but a lot of people used this back a while ago. (Don't really see it mentioned much nowadays for some reason.)
     
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    I'm probably the only person on the entire site who thinks most of the ships being made are..well..ugly.

    Let me explain: I like realism. I think most ships are very much overdesigned with waaaay too much impracticality. Now, why would a ship have to be aerodynamic in the cold vacuum of space? Where's the turrets/point defence? What self respecting navy would overdecorate their ships? It's the reason I can't watch Anime or play most RPG games, all characters and settings are overdesigned with too many edges and too long blades, essentially making most settings look the same to me. I can't tell 2 anime chars apart, because of their design.

    But when someone shows me a realistic setting or character I remember it and appreciate it. I know media is meant as an escape from reality but I like the 'alternate reality/20 mins into the future' style.

    (And before someone says it, no I am not a 'hater' who is 'jealous' because I don't care for shipbuilding.)

    To get a view of what I think a beautiful space ship should look like:

    (That's the ISS)


    (The ship from 'interstellar' re made in KSP)
     
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    Personally I build a frame of the ship first, and add more and more detail as I build
    I usually get the basic ship shape down quite easily, but details always burn me out in trying to make a flat surface be more interesting. Anyone got any tips on that? Not including greebling though. That doesn't translate well to Star Made on smaller ships. I usually just try to add pipes, clamps, and propellant tanks to everything. Current ship I'm working on for critique (a salvage ship).


    I'm probably the only person on the entire site who thinks most of the ships being made are..well..ugly.
    I do too half the time actually, I just don't say it a lot. (my own ships included)

    Now, why would a ship have to be aerodynamic in the cold vacuum of space?
    Depends on if they double as atmospheric fighters. A lot of times wings as a shape are just a really good and practical platform for mounting weapons and shit. I agree with you on principle though about over-design, but that's more in the realm of taste than objectivity.

    It's the reason I can't watch Anime or play most RPG games, all characters and settings are overdesigned with too many edges and too long blades
    You're just watching the wrong animu.
     

    Keptick

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    I'm probably the only person on the entire site who thinks most of the ships being made are..well..ugly.

    Let me explain: I like realism. I think most ships are very much overdesigned with waaaay too much impracticality. Now, why would a ship have to be aerodynamic in the cold vacuum of space? Where's the turrets/point defence? What self respecting navy would overdecorate their ships? It's the reason I can't watch Anime or play most RPG games, all characters and settings are overdesigned with too many edges and too long blades, essentially making most settings look the same to me. I can't tell 2 anime chars apart, because of their design.

    But when someone shows me a realistic setting or character I remember it and appreciate it. I know media is meant as an escape from reality but I like the 'alternate reality/20 mins into the future' style.

    (And before someone says it, no I am not a 'hater' who is 'jealous' because I don't care for shipbuilding.)

    To get a view of what I think a beautiful space ship should look like:

    (That's the ISS)


    (The ship from 'interstellar' re made in KSP)
    You got it wrong, it's to be more lithodynamic while flying through the enemy ship ;)
     
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    Lecic

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    I usually get the basic ship shape down quite easily, but details always burn me out in trying to make a flat surface be more interesting. Anyone got any tips on that? Not including greebling though. That doesn't translate well to Star Made on smaller ships. I usually just try to add pipes, clamps, and propellant tanks to everything. Current ship I'm working on for critique (a salvage ship).
    I would add some vents to the top. A 2x2 hole, made into a diamond with wedges, and then grill underneath with some sort of glowy block beneath that. Also, add some color! Part of why the ship looks kind of dull is that it's just a solid grey face with nothing breaking it up. Add some lengthwise strips of a color you like!
     
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    • Also look around you, if you see something that has even the remotest posibility of being part of a space ship, be it a wine bottle, lamp shade, computer mouse, or other random stuff you see on a day to day basis, figure out how you could make it into an engine, or a bridge, or a little bit of greebling on the side of your ship, or even an entire ship.
    This is great advice! I pull some of my design ideas from some of the least obvious places. As an example, this is one of the pirate ships we use on the MikeLand server. It's based on my dog's rubber duck chew toy. It has changed a few times and grown in size quite a bit with the changes to weapons systems and docking areas. This is the original v0.09 version.



    Another good place I've found is by looking at tribal tattoo shapes. Fill in the gaps and you have a nice silhouette of a ship, either top down or a side profile depending on the design. I have a few made using this method too.
     
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    Lecic

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    This is great advice! I pull some of my design ideas from some of the least obvious places. As an example, this is one of the pirate ships we use on the MikeLand server. It's based on my dog's rubber duck chew toy. It has changed a few times and grown in size quite a bit with the changes to weapons systems and docking areas. This is the original v0.09 version.



    Another good place I've found is by looking at tribal tattoo shapes. Fill in the gaps and you have a nice silhouette of a ship, either top down or a side profile depending on the design. I have a few made using this method too.
    I'm not laughing at you, the chew toy ship origins are legitimately hilarious. Good work.
     
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    You could go for a more practical approach: Which kind of ship do you want to build? Which weapons does it need? Which weapons can be built in, which ones are better put into turrets? What about hangar bays? How to place turrets whithout blocking their line of fire? How to achieve a 360° point defense coverage? Start with floating weapons and turrets, then place the other systems between them and connect everthing with hull.

    Let me explain: I like realism. I think most ships are very much overdesigned with waaaay too much impracticality. Now, why would a ship have to be aerodynamic in the cold vacuum of space? Where's the turrets/point defence? What self respecting navy would overdecorate their ships?
    Me too. I also don't like the cardboard design of many ships which just look like pieces of cardboard glued together. I mostly use curved surfaces.
     

    Thalanor

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    This is partially a problem of cubevoxels though: what is practical in real space != what is practical in starmade. The equivalent of the ISS (practical approach) in starmade would be a bunch of connected hulled system cubes. Round shapes IRL provide the most volume per hull; the starmade equivalent are cube shapes (also provide the most volume per hull).

    Actually building something that catches the beauty of realistic spaceships IS possible, but requires you to operate at least on a 200m+ scale to make it look good.

    On topic, my two cents on spaceship design: The first ship you build should be a ~60-120m corvette or frigate. Redo parts you don't like as often as needed to make the frigate look good in your opinion, because that is all that matters in this step; you are trying to find YOUR build style, not the community consensus (if you don't identify with your build style, it will fail). Once you have it, you have an easier time building larger ships, using the experience gathered to avoid more and more re-designing steps. During that process you will also create templates for future use as a nice side effect.

    Your build style guidelines should be somewhat handy, so check if you can express the basic idea in a few lines. For comparison, my personal condensed guidelines:
    - Functional shapes. I have explicitly decided against very alien- looking or pointy shapes. This is justified with the lore of my shipyard (ships designed for a colonial fleet far away from home; shipyard is run by humans)
    - Hull depth rule. No have large exposed parts of flat hull; covering them partially with disconnected armor plates.
    - My personal style of greebling effect to cover a procentually small (!) area of the ship can be seen on my newer content (and how NOT to do it on my older content!); find your preferred way of adding greebling and use it sparingly. Greebling is the salt in your soup; there can be too much or not enough.
     
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    One of the brilliant things about games like this, is that anything goes.
    Basically, anything You personally like, can probably be adapted into a vehicle of some sort.

    Take My crap as an example:

    I like mechanical / real-ish ships. I like fancy, futuristic ships that still need You to grab a stick and throttle. I imagine the cockpits of My ships with metal toggle switches with red flight covers, large, 80s hifi-looking analog knobs, 80s hifi-looking led meters, etc. I imagine My ships having Reaction Control Thruster outlets all over them for guidance control.
    None of that cool blue glowy stuff for the propulsion systems, Mt ships have obvious large thrust cones, that (I imagine) spew out a explosion of light and force, 80s /90s video game style.
    I was never much of a fan of the Star trek style of things; Touch panels to control everything, service hatches that just pop off, no screws or nuts anywhere, being able to solve any problem just by altering power to/from the deflector, Ect.

    I also have a hardon for WWII-era fighters and vehicle design, and as it turns out I'm not alone. I found an art style referred to as "Dieselpunk":




    So you can guess how a lot of My stuff looks:



    Are those tuned headers, like what You'd find on an oxygen-breathing car? Well, They're styled after tuned headers, but now They're "The external linear magnetic induction rails, for the beefy Royce-anderson Ganymede 3500 Photomagnetic Impact Drive"... Nerdy, ain't I?

    And since I grew up in front of a Sega Genesis, a lot of My fighters (Both built and planned) have a 80s/90s shmup feel to them:


    Pewpew, Motherfucker. As long as I have one more continue, and get the powerup...

    But that's just My crap.

    Point is, anything You like, You can make happen.


    As for the design and realization side of things, I tend to sketch ideas out on paper first, then build a mostly-scale version in MS paint (Pre windows seven MS paint, the new one is shite), so I can figure out core placement and whatnot, then build that in game out of what I think the primary color is so I've got a rough form, then "sculpt" it from there; shave down any odd sections, add angled pieces, do a rough equipment loadout to see if anything needs to be expanded. Once I've got the hull, most of the physical details, and basic equipment done, I do a color pass, swapping out blocks here and there for different color ones for markings, details, Etc.

    For curved surfaces, I build the whole structure first, then, starting at the leading edge of the structure, work My way to the back, placing angled pieces as necessary. And By necessary I mean "Should I be placing an angled part on top of the pre-existing block structure, or should I remove and replace a block with an angled piece? This is a big deal, and can really effect the smoothness of Your ship.

    For detail work, again, refer to whatever Your inspiration is. For My dieselpunk stuff, there is a theme:
    Obvious engine exhaust points or output, the engines themselves being the center of attention.
    Control surfaces, like wings and fins.
    substructures, small cylinders or shapes attached to other parts, like exposed parts of the engines or weapons systems.
    An obvious cockpit, even if it's not very practical in it's location (I tend to switch to a hidden camera or the core itself in a fight, better field of vision).
    An overall streamlined look. It's gotta be sleek like it's flying through atmosphere, and damned sexy at the same time.

    Some details are physical; that is, they are built from blocks, like the above mentioned.
    some details are visual: that is, they are achieved from a simple color change. A couple of black blocks in a grey surface can denote an engine vent, or exhaust port, or sensor panel. A light block can be a light, or an energy release of some sort. It's like the skin that is applied to a polygon model in games, the detail isn't physically there, but it's "painted" on.

    I also find it helpful to create and think about a lore, or storyline for the universe said ship is in.
    For Me, It's a mixture of all the nerd crap I grew up with: For the most part, My universe has a wild west, frontier feel to it, ala an old cartoon I grew up watching called The Adventures Of The Galaxy Rangers. Space is exciting, and people are digging exploring it, and setting wonderful new colonies to live on, with farms to feed everyone.
    But it's dangerous and rough, filled with unknown things, and a breeding ground for ne're-do-wells like claim jumpers, pirates, punks, Etc. Not to mention political in-fighting; You're invading OUR claim! This is our asteroid field! Bullshit You bunch of sidewinders! We were here first, we've got right too!
    There's also a small dose of cyberpunk in some areas as well; A massive jump in technology, along side a decay in social order and a big difference between the haves and have-nots, ala Max headroom, William Gibson novels, Blade Runner, Robocop, Etc. A good way of explaining the high-tech side of seemingly old looking ships, and allows My universe to have other gimmicks / sides to it.

    Sounds like a good place to be a lone cowboy with a starfighter, a desperado, a brave explorer, a patriotic commander of a battleship, a trader, Etc.

    All of this dorky sounding crap really helps You build, as now You have a culture to help define why the ship exists in the first place. The lore you create doesn't even have to be a major part of gameplay if You don't want it to be, but its a great jump start to the design process. once You start looking at it this way, the details and shapes practically design themselves. You just need to build and tweek it.


    I suggest nerding-out hardcore for a week with Your favorite fiction, embracing the yummy goodness, then sit back and think: what parts of this do I think is awesome? It doesn't even have to be science fiction.
     
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    This is great advice! I pull some of my design ideas from some of the least obvious places. As an example, this is one of the pirate ships we use on the MikeLand server. It's based on my dog's rubber duck chew toy. It has changed a few times and grown in size quite a bit with the changes to weapons systems and docking areas. This is the original v0.09 version.



    Another good place I've found is by looking at tribal tattoo shapes. Fill in the gaps and you have a nice silhouette of a ship, either top down or a side profile depending on the design. I have a few made using this method too.
    Y'know, this and your avatar made me think: this is the space ship version of 'The Homer'
     
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    why would a ship have to be aerodynamic in the cold vacuum of space?
    Keep in mind that a couple generations have had this as our space ship:

    Yeah, we still had other rockets to launch stuff into orbit, or to other planets, but when we wanted to send people or large objects (such as those ISS parts) up, the Space Shuttle was called to do the job.

    Since we're still a planet-bound civilization, every ship we build has to launch from, and some cases land on, a planet. This results in space craft needing to be engineered with aerodynamics as well as orbital dynamics in mind, especially the ones carrying people. Since every man-made vehicle needs to work in atmosphere for at least part of its travel, this influences fictional design, leading to aerodynamic hulls for space ships that don't normally deorbit.

    Space stations are assembled in orbit and intended to stay in space, so they can be built without regard to aerodynamics. Every single kilogram of such vessels can be devoted to serving the structure's function and purpose in space, hence the architecture of Mir and ISS. If we get around to building actual ships in orbit, that are designed to carry smaller vehicles for planetary entry rather than land themselves, they would share the building style of our stations, hence the Interstellar ship. KSP is great for building these kinds of vessels.
     
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    Keep in mind that a couple generations have had this as our space ship:

    Yeah, we still had other rockets to launch stuff into orbit, or to other planets, but when we wanted to send people or large objects (such as those ISS parts) up, the Space Shuttle was called to do the job.

    Since we're still a planet-bound civilization, every ship we build has to launch from, and some cases land on, a planet. This results in space craft needing to be engineered with aerodynamics as well as orbital dynamics in mind, especially the ones carrying people. Since every man-made vehicle needs to work in atmosphere for at least part of its travel, this influences fictional design, leading to aerodynamic hulls for space ships that don't normally deorbit.

    Space stations are assembled in orbit and intended to stay in space, so they can be built without regard to aerodynamics. Every single kilogram of such vessels can be devoted to serving the structure's function and purpose in space, hence the architecture of Mir and ISS. If we get around to building actual ships in orbit, that are designed to carry smaller vehicles for planetary entry rather than land themselves, they would share the building style of our stations, hence the Interstellar ship. KSP is great for building these kinds of vessels.
    The Shuttle was good...but look at the Russkie Rockets the ISS crews use for their work commute, nothing more than a capsule with a small amount of manoeuvring rockets on top of some Soviet shit from the 60's.

    Oh no doubt some ships would be aerodynamic for planetfall uses, but most of the capital ships you see on this forum would totally collapse under even Martian gravity. So they would have to be assembled in space due to the sheer size...why don't movies use this as a ramatic thing IDK...

    Anyway, I'm getting too complex. All I meant to say is I'd like to see more 'realistic' shapes. TBH how do we even know what realistic is? Could the Wright brothers have predicted the Antonov 225? Would they think it would be possible? Would Columbus think the Oasis of the Seas be possible? Who knows. Even the finest of NASA's minds cannot truly predict what casual spaceflight will look like so I certainly cannot say what is and isn't realistic. FYI, for anyone seeing this yes I do know what fantasy is, and I do love it.

    I also have a hardon for WWII-era fighters and vehicle design, and as it turns out I'm not alone. I found an art style referred to as "Dieselpunk":
    Oh hell yes, please PLEASE do more Dieselpunk and Atompunk ships, this is very much my favourite. If you want a great design inspiration go and play fallout/bioshock or watch 'Metropolis'

    If someone made an Art Deco spaceship I'd cry happy, oily car tears.
     
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    wow, just read all these responses here today... thanks and i mean thanks for all that input. I wasn't expecting such feedback lol but there are awesome pointers in this post. I never really looked at everything like that. I do have one question tho, After everything is all said and done and i have an idea and outline, how do you guys know what size to build it or is it just wingin it.. i tend to underbuild it seems lol or sometimes i go overboard, sketching it out mi ght be a good idea on graph paper i guess? Many many thanks for all of this fellas gave me some great things to mess aorund with now :)
     
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    Realism is more or less based on the same things as common sense; the unspoken expectations, mechanics, and reasoning applied from one event and time which may in fact be completely inappropriate when used elsewhere.

    The rockets of modern use tend to favor rugged simplicity do to the already high costs and tendency toward risk aversion (unnecessary complexity); so if you were really going to design a battle ship for space to that realistic style they would probably all look a bit like the Orion Battleship .

    Aerodynamic shape can easily be explained away by convergent evolution. Giant fins could be used for some unspoken exotic engine technology,keeping your engine or thrusters from cooking your crew, increased leverage for turning with giant exterior engine pods mounted at the tips, to hide the cabling and maintenance walkways,an assortment of smaller thrusters mounted all along the a back edge of the wing, or the
    multi-direction turning thrust of the Babylon 5 Starfury. Even with all of that it still holds true that as much mass as possible should be kept to the center axis's as possible. A flying wing type ship would be more practical in space than on a planet; heck put an engine on a brick and it could fly. All that really matters is that a ship be balanced for its use.

    I have far more reference art in various corners of my hard drive than completed ships so I dont have much in worthwhile tips, but here goes

    sketches plain or graphed tend to be a good idea for layout but it is still better to build smaller even if you planned for bigger and then scale the ship up to prevent losing energy or interest. Know what you can handle; some people are just sickeningly good at doing things on the fly

    learn to make and use copy /save/ load templates- good for power, engines, weapons, hallways, etc... Angled hallways become a lot easier to layout on the frame with the template. It can also allow you to put down the main, secondary, and effects weapon block simultaneously depending on your needs.

    Some questions to ask yourself:
    How do you want to get in and out of your core?
    Where will your core be relative to the rest of the ship?
    Do you want a lot of interior?
    Would you prefer to slap interior on top or squeeze into the center or layer it throughout the ship systems?
    Will you use hallways, crawl ways, or both?
    How wide will hallways be?
    Will hallways be straight, angled or curved?
    Will you use ramps, elevators, drop tubes, or a mix to get between levels?
    What kind of ramp/stair - switch back, parallel, spiral, straight, etc...
    Will the ceiling and the floor share the same blocks or light?
    How thick will the ceiling and floor be?
    How high will your ceiling be?
    Will you have systems under the floor?
    Will you have systems exposed on the interior, exterior or not at all?
    What kind of turrets will you use?
    How will you place turrets?
    How will you access turrets?
     
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