Decrease Spread On Shotgun Weapons

[Lecic]

Shotguns are currently worthless. They have a slight use for salvage beams and that's about it. I think the spread of cannon shot and beams from a shotgun weapon array should be lower, something to the tune of 5-10m spread at 100m. They would then be effective at short range, and still able to do some damage to larger ships at further ranges.

EDIT- A wonderful thread by jath on the same topic, with more math and IRL shotgun knowledge. http://starmadedock.net/threads/shotgun-breakdown-philosophy-usage-and-theory.6641/#post-94014

 

[Winterhome]

The shotgun cone of fire right now is closer to blowing tennis balls out of a bucket with a firecracker than it is to a proper shotgun.

 

[Lecic]

The shotgun cone of fire right now is closer to blowing tennis balls out of a bucket with a firecracker than it is to a proper shotgun.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I think I have a new signature. Seeya, "Pleb Defense Turrets"

 

[Lancake]

Since a shotgun array, and an equivalent non support array would give you the same total dps, there is only 1 reason why you would use a shotgun array:

• Your computer acts like it has multiple groups but you don't have the power consumption penalty on it and you have more projectiles (obviously). However, to compensate for that, the weapon is not accurate.

At a certain distance you'll always have less DPS than an equivalent non shotgun array. Since you do shoot multiple projectiles there's a big chance you hit around 30-50% of it where as a normal weapon it is hit or miss for your full DPS.

That does not mean I think shotgun arrays are worth it, since they are not.
They are too inaccurate and you hardly get any benefit from them, you need to be closer than 100 meters to hit all your projectiles which is way too close.

I would either buff the damage (and also increase powerconsumption) so it gives you a bigger punch for less blocks or I would decrease the inaccuracy. Probably a combination of both would be the best.

 

[Lecic]

Since a shotgun array, and an equivalent non support array would give you the same total dps, there is only 1 reason why you would use a shotgun array:

• Your computer acts like it has multiple groups but you don't have the power consumption penalty on it and you have more projectiles (obviously). However, to compensate for that, the weapon is not accurate.

At a certain distance you'll always have less DPS than an equivalent non shotgun array. Since you do shoot multiple projectiles there's a big chance you hit around 30-50% of it where as a normal weapon it is hit or miss for your full DPS.

That does not mean I think shotgun arrays are worth it, since they are not.
They are too inaccurate and you hardly get any benefit from them, you need to be closer than 100 meters to hit all your projectiles which is way too close.

I would either buff the damage (and also increase powerconsumption) so it gives you a bigger punch for less blocks or I would decrease the inaccuracy. Probably a combination of both would be the best.

I'd prefer longer range to buffed damage. The "big punch" from a shotgun is mainly the block destruction it can cause, but its spread is so ridiculous that shotguns might as well be a melee weapon like pulse.

 

[Lancake]

I'd prefer longer range to buffed damage. The "big punch" from a shotgun is mainly the block destruction it can cause, but its spread is so ridiculous that shotguns might as well be a melee weapon like pulse.

A decent sized + more accurate shotgun with piercing/punch would be able to deal massive amounts of block damage I imagine which is good considering it is bad in other things.

But...without a damage buff, you can do the exact same thing with the same block count. You just need to divide the array up in groups and thus you'll probably use around 2 times more power consumption in comparison to the shotgun array.
That would be the only difference between a real shotgun weapon and a normal, but accurate weapon with 10 or so groups.

So that's either a large amount of inaccuracy (even if buffed it is still relatively big compared to pinpoint accuracy of a normal weapon) versus 2 times more power consumption.

Is this worth using a shotgun for?

 

[Lecic]

A decent sized + more accurate shotgun with piercing/punch would be able to deal massive amounts of block damage I imagine which is good considering it is bad in other things.

But...without a damage buff, you can do the exact same thing with the same block count. You just need to divide the array up in groups and thus you'll probably use around 2 times more power consumption in comparison to the shotgun array.
That would be the only difference between a real shotgun weapon and a normal, but accurate weapon with 10 or so groups.

So that's either a large amount of inaccuracy (even if buffed it is still relatively big compared to pinpoint accuracy of a normal weapon) versus 2 times more power consumption.

Is this worth using a shotgun for?

The shotgun NEEDS improved accuracy if it's going to be of any use. However, you have convinced me that it could also use a nice damage boost as well.

 

[MacThule]

I rated the OP agree, and generally do, but would like to add that cannon-missile link "shotgun" or "flak" as I think of it is second only to cannon-cannon links for point-defense (which is a whole other can of worms).

 

[Lecic]

I rated the OP agree, and generally do, but would like to add that cannon-missile link "shotgun" or "flak" as I think of it is second only to cannon-cannon links for point-defense (which is a whole other can of worms).

Yeah, for some PD turrets I'll have both a Cannon/Cannon and a Cannon/Missile on board. But, wouldn't being more accurate while still having a decent spread make it even better for point defense?

Also, think about Beams. They don't benefit at all from high spread, because you can't even use them for anti-missile purposes.

And really, for flak, what we need is the Minelayer system. Cannon/Minelayer was going to be flak cannons.

 

[Nauvran]

As we discussed in chat the other day.
More spray patterns for the shotgun weapons are needed, needs to be at least a bit random where they hit.
But other than that then I agree that the accuracy of the shotgun weapons should be increased however I do not know if it will be a good or bad thing for salvage arrays. my old Shotgun salvager might have lagged me to death but it was pretty good at taking out giant chunks in one click.

 

[Lecic]

As we discussed in chat the other day.
More spray patterns for the shotgun weapons are needed, needs to be at least a bit random where they hit.
But other than that then I agree that the accuracy of the shotgun weapons should be increased however I do not know if it will be a good or bad thing for salvage arrays. my old Shotgun salvager might have lagged me to death but it was pretty good at taking out giant chunks in one click.

It could probably be made that salvage beams keep the old shotgun spread, while cannons and beams get the new one.

And yes, more spray patterns would be sweet.

 

[Keptick]

There's also the fact that 90% of the projectiles go to the right (which is pathetic). Having a well distributed pattern until random patterns are integrated would be nice.

 

[Winterhome]

Why not just throw the RNG at each projectile spawned? Would only be three extra operations per each projectile, and no new lines, if written right.

Get angle between output and cursor, add randomized number with minimum and maximum of spread and -spread to X, Y, Z values of angle, spawn projectile at new angle with random offset.

 

[Loadout]

I think the problem is using shotguns en masse. While other weapons benefit from pin point accuracy, as mentioned they are a hit or miss, a hit = 100% damage, a miss = 0%. So having between 10-20 shotgun barrels can literally fill a screen with shotgun pellets. Making it 100% hit chance every time, just not with 100% of your damage. Even more shotguns increases your hit chance to ridiculous levels, without nearly as much penalty on energy consumption either. This raises two issues..

1. How do they increase the accuracy without making the above method entirely wall-of-death-like akin to the old checkerboard AMCs (which it already is)..
2. If damage is increased per pellet the above method will literally become the new checkerboard of doom, simply fill the screen and watch pellets smash away against the hull.

Also, best use I've found so far is on drones. Having huge numbers of these shotgun pellets flying about nerfs missiles in a most fantastical way. Given swarm missiles being the usual counter method, it does make for a rather interesting fight. :p That said I'd love mine-layers, although I imagine they're difficult to implement effectively.

 

[Nauvran]

I think the problem is using shotguns en masse. While other weapons benefit from pin point accuracy, as mentioned they are a hit or miss, a hit = 100% damage, a miss = 0%. So having between 10-20 shotgun barrels can literally fill a screen with shotgun pellets. Making it 100% hit chance every time, just not with 100% of your damage. Even more shotguns increases your hit chance to ridiculous levels, without nearly as much penalty on energy consumption either. This raises two issues..

1. How do they increase the accuracy without making the above method entirely wall-of-death-like akin to the old checkerboard AMCs (which it already is)..
2. If damage is increased per pellet the above method will literally become the new checkerboard of doom, simply fill the screen and watch pellets smash away against the hull.

Also, best use I've found so far is on drones. Having huge numbers of these shotgun pellets flying about nerfs missiles in a most fantastical way. Given swarm missiles being the usual counter method, it does make for a rather interesting fight. :p That said I'd love mine-layers, although I imagine they're difficult to implement effectively.

well if you take a look at the typical shotgun you see that they are incredible overpowered at short distances and they are the worst weapon to have been created when you are fighting anyone with a medium to long range weapon.
But right now with how the output of the shotgun is you need to be extremely close to the target before you can hit with every pellet and even if you are really close you will most of the time miss with some pellets because of how the spray pattern is.

So the simply solution would be to:
decrease the spread a bit and make it easier to hit targets that are 200-300 (? even further maybe, should probably have a 60/75% hit chance with all pellets at half the distance of the max normal range of beams)

and add more spray patterns for the pellets. just adding 3 or 4 would help a lot.

 

[Njord]

Agreed I like this idea as a general way to improve the weapon with the universe update ranges changed on weapons b it the shotguns are good at 100more closer

 

[whooplaah]

I agree.

The current AI doesn't benefit from shotgun arrays as it stands, particularly on the servers I've visited where all pirates are snipers. Rather than use a shotgun array, I find that a checker-board of cannons is both more accurate AND benefits from a different support system.

I'm completely cool with the current effect being less spread, but what if the missile support had a completely different effect? Missile + Missile = homing missile, so what if Cannon + Missile = lock on target with laser? Not a homing laser, mind you, but an AI aim-bot calculation that predicts the target's flight path.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

would adding scaling bonus damage to the amount of pellets from a single volley that hit a target help? Basically the more pellets that hit a target the more damage they all do.

 

[Lecic]

would adding scaling bonus damage to the amount of pellets from a single volley that hit a target help? Basically the more pellets that hit a target the more damage they all do.

Isn't that a feature of one weapon from Fractured Space? Anyway, with current shotgun spread, no. It'd be worthless regardless. It would definitely be useful with a more accurate spread, though... maybe a bit TOO useful.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Isn't that a feature of one weapon from Fractured Space? Anyway, with current shotgun spread, no. It'd be worthless regardless. It would definitely be useful with a more accurate spread, though... maybe a bit TOO useful.

I was kind of thinking that this be coupled with the spread accuracy being tied to the missile slave ratio. Lower missile slave ratios will yield better accuracy but have less pellets and thus its best suited for hitting targets at range. while at a 1:1 ratio the spread is huge but the trade off is more pellets making it a really powerful point blank weapon