Current Weapon Balance: Shields vs Hull

    Mered4

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    An HP pool makes sense to me, because in SciFi TV and movies, the hull doesn't generally show damage until a LOT of damage has been done (depending on the needs of the plot), so basically HP pool = shield 2.

    With that said, we need particle effects. Why? Before the HP pool is depleted, areas that are hit without shields, and with blocks that haven't been damaged or destroyed yet, due to the HP pool, should show venting "stuff" at the point the weapon hit, whether that be venting atmosphere, venting sparks, venting crewmembers, or venting pixie dust. The particle emitter can be directed to point in the direction the weapon arrived from (pretty easy calculation to simply reverse the vector) for the initial burst, and then realign the particle emitter with the face normal for continued venting for a while (eventually expiring; make up any excuse you like for the particles stopping, such as emergency repair crews or auto-shutoff valves.)

    Would need an overall server limit on how many "emitters" can be in operation at the same time, expiring over-the-limit emitters prematurely, based on their relative age.

    Freespace reference (notice the particles being ejected from the weapon damage points on the freighter to be protected):
    All of you are misunderstanding what he means.

    All armor blocks in a group (as is standard in Starmade) will *give* eachother HP - it wont be a shared pool.
    Each block will have the health and armor of the whole section. On ridiculously massive chunks, you might be able to break a million HP PER BLOCK.

    This would need balancing, of course. But the concept is the same.
     
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    Lecic

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    I don't think the point is to make it impossible, but to make it more difficult. Doesn't having a 99% resist at 256 HP mean that even with 100k damage you can at max go through 4 blocks instead of like a thousand? or am I misunderstanding how armor mitigates damage?
    Missiles deal the same amount of damage to all blocks in their radius.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1421799473,1421799368][/DOUBLEPOST]
    All of you are misunderstanding what he means.

    All armor blocks in a group (as is standard in Starmade) will *give* eachother HP - it wont be a shared pool.
    Each block will have the health and armor of the whole section. On ridiculously massive chunks, you might be able to break a million HP.
    No, jay's right. It'd essentially be shield v2.
     

    Mered4

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    Missiles deal the same amount of damage to all blocks in their radius.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1421799473,1421799368][/DOUBLEPOST]

    No, jay's right. It'd essentially be shield v2.
    now I don't like the idea D:
     

    Mered4

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    It works like a second shield system. Those blocks cannot be damaged until they run out of the shared HP pool, at which point individual blocks can be destroyed.
    Interesting. That would work quite well, actually. It adds an extra layer to the fight: armor.

    Shields, armor, hull. Interesting.
     

    NeonSturm

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    I like it.

    It wouldn't be shield #2
    It would rather be shield TYPE 2 - just NOT regenerating

    It would also give armor blocks an actual value in other parts of the ship, giving civilian and RP ships at least some defensive strength in a platoon (for transport or mining together with guards) if they have not that many guns.
     
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    It works like a second shield system. Those blocks cannot be damaged until they run out of the shared HP pool, at which point individual blocks can be destroyed.

    It's a nice thought... But it will make smaller craft that are unable to damage shields because of the sheer amount of capacity and and recharge totally unable to damage large ships because of the combined HP of armor.

    If a single blocks HP is maxed at 256, then everything else needs to be scaled to match that. I've been saying it for the two years I've been playing this game.

    I've tried my best to bring things into balance with my capital ships config. But there is only so much the game will allow you to do. I've been able to bring power, shields, effects and thrusters into line, but weapons are impossible

    I would really love to have access to the multiplier that determines the damage and power curves for weapons.

    That way I could give weapons damage a high initial value and a steep diminishing curve. So fighters could have effective weapons, but the DPS gained from each additional block added would make ship annihilating weapons impossible.
     
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    It works like a second shield system. Those blocks cannot be damaged until they run out of the shared HP pool, at which point individual blocks can be destroyed.
    That makes more sense. The question then is how do you balance it. For example, is there a maximum number of contiguous connected blocks? Or is there a diminishing return beyond a certain point (that would seem to make the most sense)?

    On a side note... so missile damage is not negated by blocks impacted first?
     

    AtraUnam

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    While small ships being unable to do damage could be unfair in some situations I have no problem with a 100 mass fighter being completely unable to damage a 10 block thick slab of armor.

    On the side note:
    Missiles do damage in stages which are only partially effected by armor. The missile does full damage to all blocks within the range of stage 1, then only if all blocks within stage 1 are destroyed it goes on to a larger stage 2. This continues theoretically forever though I have never heard of any missile getting past stage 3.
    This size of the first stage also increases in tiers with missile damage. This means that you can min max missiles to use the minimum amount of missiles required for X first stage radius tier; however testing also shows that if a missile that is at the lower end of damage for its size tier hits a large enough chunk of hardened hull then it will end up doing 0 damage.
     

    NeonSturm

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    While small ships being unable to do damage could be unfair in some situations I have no problem with a 100 mass fighter being completely unable to damage a 10 block thick slab of armor.
    This.

    Fighters are meant to exploit weak spots in the hull setup and should not win single-handily vs a ship which even has bigger turrets.

    Because NOW they can neither do that much damage vs (2+)x bigger targets.
    2x scale = 8x volume = 4.5 idle regeneration per 8x shield ~ 1 weapon (dunno if only cost or stats have changed since November)
     
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    There's a bunch of ways which balance can be at least brought to reasonable state. It's depressing how long it takes to make such changes.

    - Rather than keep under-fire shield regeneration almost identical for all ships, a curve should be implemented. As ship gets more and more shield capacity, the under-fire regeneration goes down from 100% to 0% at a specific amount of capacitors installed, at which point it simply does not regenerate in combat at all. The only way to partially migitate the given diminishing return is to install a larger ratio of more common Shield Rechargers instead. The cap parameter should obviously be adjustable in the server config. This would allow smaller ships to wither down the capitals even if any weapons are nerfed in perspective. Might require a slight adjustment for diminishing return of shield capacity to keep value of capacitors high.

    Alternatively, increasing the amount of capacitors might create a minimum damage breach, which means that massive shield array wont even trigger on shots from a fighter. Both variants would make smaller spacecraft, as well as modular shield/armor plating, much more viable.

    - Instead of adressing the HP values of armor, the damage taken should be affected instead, lacking any visible byte limits. Ships with progressively larger relative amount of armor installed would recieve less and less base damage, but only if the armor is actually being hit. That would allow smaller ships to run strikes against capital ship weak spots. Weapons with AoE effects attached would have to bypass the reduction on a per-block or per-stage basis. Whether damage reduction should be relative, absolute or both in reduced degree is another question.

    - Cannon weapons should get a more reasonable fire rate cap at 100% cannon-cannon modules. The currently ridiculous fire-rate of these weapons makes them equal if not better than an AoE-enchanced weapons without any damage reduction or drawbacks, while small-sized CCs do so little damage per shot that it can become effectively useless when armor is fixed. Only Beam weapons are limited enough by their range to feature such fire-rate, and it doesn't spam projectiles or sounds either.

    - Missiles is a hard weapon to balance. An obvious fix there is to make basic Missile weapon lock-on, while Missile-Pulse has to become dumb-fire. Standalone Missiles reload for too long to be viable as dumb-fire, while Nukes has too much in them, especially radius, to also keep them viable against moving targets.

    - Large issue lies within on-range balance of all weapons. Making different combos of weapons change their stats mostly around projectile damage, reload and range. While changes to reload and damage counteract each-other entirely and power drain is based on resulting DPS and area of effect, range is not compensated by anything whatsoever. That means that all beam-slaved (Extended Range) weapons are by far superior to anything else, giving you a first shot in any given circumstances. That has to be counteracted with DPS reduction as range goes up, to make it reasonable to use short-ranged weapons, such as RF Missiles and beam weapons.

    Those are simply the ones I think would work great.
     
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    - Instead of adressing the HP values of armor, the damage taken should be affected instead, lacking any visible byte limits. Ships with progressively larger relative amount of armor installed would recieve less and less base damage, but only if the armor is actually being hit. That would allow smaller ships to run strikes against capital ship weak spots. Weapons with AoE effects attached would have to bypass the reduction on a per-block or per-stage basis. Whether damage reduction should be relative, absolute or both in reduced degree is another question.

    - Large issue lies within on-range balance of all weapons. Making different combos of weapons change their stats mostly around projectile damage, reload and range. While changes to reload and damage counteract each-other entirely and power drain is based on resulting DPS and area of effect, range is not compensated by anything whatsoever. That means that all beam-slaved (Extended Range) weapons are by far superior to anything else, giving you a first shot in any given circumstances. That has to be counteracted with DPS reduction as range goes up, to make it reasonable to use short-ranged weapons, such as RF Missiles and beam weapons.
    I like it and support 100%

    enough armor could mitigate damage to a point the armor in undamaged by not big enough weapons !
    The weak spot idea is great it makes the player want his big ship to be full covered by hull. And fighters could easely take profit from the target armor being damaged by bigger allied ship
    (and it makes you want lots of armor but in the right places)
     
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    NeonSturm

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    Imagine Weapon->ArmorType : (damageQuant - blockArmor) * blockDamage = receivedDamage
    Imagine L->M : (30% - 25%) * 5 = 5% => 5% of 5 -- per 2 blocks 8 times a second => 1 dps
    Imagine M->M : (65% - 25%) * 20 = 30% of 10 -- per 1 block each 1 seconds => 3.3 dps
    Imagine H->M: (100% - 25%) * 80 = 75% of 20 -- per 2 blocks each 4 seconds => 1.875 dps
    Well, numbers may change (be balanced), but you get the idea.

    Certain hull would require certain guns.

    L 0% => L 30% guns (cannon/missile-slaves) have most total dps here.
    M 25% => M 65% guns (beam-slaves) have most total dps here.
    H 55% => H 100% guns (pulse-slaves) have most total dps here.
    (excluding overkills ^^)
     
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    That makes more sense. The question then is how do you balance it. For example, is there a maximum number of contiguous connected blocks? Or is there a diminishing return beyond a certain point (that would seem to make the most sense)?

    On a side note... so missile damage is not negated by blocks impacted first?
    I like this addition to the overall ideas. Having diminishing returns in continuous stacks of armor blocks makes it so you don't want to just clad your ship in one big layer of armor but instead have sections and in between the sections would be weak points which can be exploited. Larger ships are forced to target whatever their weapon hits but a squadron of smaller fighter/bombers is able to surgically remove weak points.

    Once total HP runs out individual armor blocks can be destroyed. An astrohealerafter the battle can then repair the entire chunk if at least part of the armor survived.

    - Missiles is a hard weapon to balance. An obvious fix there is to make basic Missile weapon lock-on, while Missile-Pulse has to become dumb-fire. Standalone Missiles reload for too long to be viable as dumb-fire, while Nukes has too much in them, especially radius, to also keep them viable against moving targets.
    I also like this idea. Perhaps make the lock-on missiles much weaker in damage and scale with diminishing returns. Large ships are forced to use large lock-on missiles to hit other targets but smaller ships can equip bigger punch for each block with dumb-fire variants as they get much closer to be able to fire a salvo. Another option would be to make larger missiles and able to be shot down although perhaps giving them some HP to balance it out. This allows point-defense to take a much more active role. A battleship firing a salvo of lock-on torpedoes at another battleship with point defense turrets still up will have many destroyed before hitting the target but a small bomber will be able to surgicially drop a dumb-fire missile to a weak point. Of course this is countered by the fact the point-defense can take out the bombers but I believe overall this system allows much more dynamic combat mechanisms to be played out.

    This also adds to the fact that larger ships may not even want to carry giant torpedoes and rather beam or cannon weapons instead because those weapons will 'guarantee' a hit as long as one's aim isn't off to drop shields.

    Example of an 'ideal' vision of two battleships and smaller fighters fighting with this system. The battleships lock their main beams/cannons onto each other to reduce each others shields. Fighters and bombers fight to either kill one another / knock out turrets. Point defense turrets likewise try to kill enemy pilots. One battleship's shields go down and now begins taking armor damage. A crafty bomber sees a weakspot where its own team's battleship hit the armor / weakspot in the design and launches a nuke into that area tearing a larger piece off. A support ship begins to repair that area and given enough time the entire armor structure will be repaired etc.
     
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    What could be done is increase the resistance values to the point of 99.8-99.95% Giving adv armor ridiculous amounts of HP
     
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    timethatswasted made an excellent point about armor being useless due to the sheer strength of weapons. However I also think that the issue stems from shields bein ridikulus in the first place. But I have more to say about that later.
     
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    Mered4

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    timethatswasted made an excellent point about armor being useless due to the sheer strength of weapons. However I also think that the issue stems from shields bein ridikulus in the first place. But I have more to say about that later.
    They're all ridiculous. Armor is the only one who doesn't have super high numbers.
     
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    They're all ridiculous. Armor is the only one who doesn't have super high numbers.
    To be brutally honest though, what kind of chance will a hunk of metal stand against a high-energy beam, or energy blast? The only thing it makes sense to be useful against is missile damage. But I will also take that into consideration.