Crew as a way to limit turret/drone spam, encourage warfare, and induce maintenance costs

[StormWing0]

hmm maybe using a bobby AI module has a super limited number of things you can do with it like now but if you use NPC pilots to control a ship or turret the AI menu expands to show a crapton more options than with a regular AI module?

 

[MacThule]

So, a problem with this suggestion - and the game in general, but one thing at a time - is the new player experience. New players simply won't have resources to do much of any of this stuff.

I like your critique, it's relevant and on target. I think it's fine that a player can't access dozens of crew members in their first hours of play time though, it gives something to work up to. A second tier, in a way. Newer players simply wouldn't be able to support piloting a mass-turreted cruiser or command a large fleet. This is pretty normal in games though - it takes time to build up. It also encourages teaming up without really penalizing going solo.

I'd imagine a new player could go mine for 15 minutes and then hire at least a handful of crew members, to enable them to staff a couple escort fighters and good turrets on their primary ship. If we set the bar at being able to field a 100K plus mass-entity battleship for new players, we will never see any variety in the gameplay beyond the current route of grinding until you can field that large ship, then starting play from there.

rethink the Faction system - including the mining bonus - as well as the benefits of territory control, as well as the costs of building certain blocks, as well as what the core mechanics of this game really are, to be able to have a more enjoyable game.

I don't think it's an issue of one or the other - I think that crew should necessitate a long overdue overhaul of the faction system. And yeah - the mining bonus needs serious nerfing and resource availability needs a lot of work (IIRC that is coming down the pipe in the mid-term actually).

 

[Lone_Puppy]

hmm maybe using a bobby AI module has a super limited number of things you can do with it like now but if you use NPC pilots to control a ship or turret the AI menu expands to show a crapton more options than with a regular AI module?

I like this a lot. It make sense in that you would logically be able to have fully AI controlled ships completely. But limiting them to the existing skills set would provide incentive to employ crews to gain advanced capabilities. Kinda like how things are now with AI development in the real world where automated weapons are still quite limited, but you put a human at the controls and you get much more exciting and varied results. Or completely hopeless results. It all depends on the skill of the controller.

 

[Lecic]

So, a problem with this suggestion - and the game in general, but one thing at a time - is the new player experience. New players simply won't have resources to do much of any of this stuff.

That's before you get to the fact that due to the advent of the drone-based meta, you're still awkwardly marrying RTS mechanics on a block-buildy game in a painful way. I'd say this is one of the things StarMade is doing majorly wrong. It'd be much better to rethink the Faction system - including the mining bonus - as well as the benefits of territory control, as well as the costs of building certain blocks, as well as what the core mechanics of this game really are, to be able to have a more enjoyable game.

In short, I think the drone/turret meta you're worried about is a symptom of a malformed game design. The game needs to be designed to put players first, instead of automation. The game needs to be more fun, so that we play the game and don't take to the forums to complain.

New players don't NEED AI, though. A new loner player can run their miner solo just fine.

The turret and drone meta has absolutely nothing to do with the current faction system. The current faction system needs reworked, yes, but that won't fix these balance issues.

Fun idea, but it does not remove drone warfare at all, if the consensus is to allow one NPC to "Control" several turrets, then it stands by logic that the same NPC could control a flight of drones.

Thus not every ship would need a physical pilot in it, just someone (NPC) controlling it near by.

Not to bad an idea over all.

Remote turret control would be done by linking the console(s) to the dock of the turret base or possibly something like the fleet GUI where you can select a turret on the ship for the console(s) to control. It wouldn't work with undocked drones.

Alternatively, we could have a system of remote drone control but have a limited range of the 3x3x3 of sectors around the carrier. This would still be balanced because destroying the carrier would mean all the drones would get taken out of the fight as their remote pilots would be dead.

hmm maybe using a bobby AI module has a super limited number of things you can do with it like now but if you use NPC pilots to control a ship or turret the AI menu expands to show a crapton more options than with a regular AI module?

I don't think allowing AI to do anything more than move around to do automated deliveries is a good idea. The main point of spam drones is to fly around being impossible to hit, distracting turrets and fleet AI, ruining missile locks, and ripping out any exposed systems if shields drop. You don't need a complex AI for that, all you need is "circle strafe near max range, fire constantly."

 

[alterintel]

I like this idea allot. At first I was worried thinking this would prevent drones, but this is not the case. It's just a matter of where the pilot/operator is sitting. having a Pilot physically sitting in the pilot's seat vs having a drone operator sitting at a drone console in the mother ship is practically the same.

Great Idea

 

[DevajC]

I like this suggestion but I dont want crew to be a requirement for offensive turrets, and I think food should be a physical block like cargo. But considering the fact that planets dont even fully load for most people, let alone are off limits for most multiplayer servers, planets need to be fixed first. And I meet the specs for this game!
[doublepost=1497391999,1497391883][/doublepost]

Fun idea, but it does not remove drone warfare at all, if the consensus is to allow one NPC to "Control" several turrets, then it stands by logic that the same NPC could control a flight of drones.

Thus not every ship would need a physical pilot in it, just someone (NPC) controlling it near by.

Not to bad an idea over all.

That doesnt make sense really, if ship is docked to a turret axis then+doesnt require a crew. Simple.

 

[Madman198237]

I like it. This is the basic, but spelled-out version, of the ideas I've promoted in the past.

In order to bypass the whole "Ship docked to turret dock: What do?" thing, just add this requirement: If the object in question has a means of propulsion (Push pulse or thrusters, not jump drive), then it requires no crew from the mothership to be functional.

BOBBY AIs can stay, they just have to retain low-level AI functionality. Perhaps "Can control up to X mass, and up to Y system complexity" where system complexity is determined by a function relating number and size of systems to each other (Converting, say, 100 system blocks into the equivalent of 1 extra system, depending on config or whatever). So yes, you could, conceivably, still deploy ludicrous numbers of distractor drones...but they will cost your mothership. Crew could have the same complexity limits. So having 200 different ship cores docked to your ship is going to cost you, say, 100 crew members for maintenance (Because that 200 is added to ship complexity, which only needs to be recalculated when blocks are added. Heck, could have a 5 minute cooldown after last block added, so that 5 minutes after you finish building, it checks crew requirements, that way avoiding extra lag every time you place a block.

 

[Deserea]

Frankly, i dont mind the idea, but im concerned for single player mode players like myself. I like to pit my ships against each other(allowing them to be under control by the pirates and such) and while i would like more of a challenge, i see the requirement for crew unless crew is automatically generated on NPC ships to allow it to function, or is saved when a blueprint is made killing any single player game, because ships wouldnt function properly without said crew(Turrets not working etc)

Also have a problem with *requiring* food, water etc. pay and space to sleep obviously. So possibly make that a config setting.

 

[Lecic]

I like it. This is the basic, but spelled-out version, of the ideas I've promoted in the past.

In order to bypass the whole "Ship docked to turret dock: What do?" thing, just add this requirement: If the object in question has a means of propulsion (Push pulse or thrusters, not jump drive), then it requires no crew from the mothership to be functional.

BOBBY AIs can stay, they just have to retain low-level AI functionality. Perhaps "Can control up to X mass, and up to Y system complexity" where system complexity is determined by a function relating number and size of systems to each other (Converting, say, 100 system blocks into the equivalent of 1 extra system, depending on config or whatever). So yes, you could, conceivably, still deploy ludicrous numbers of distractor drones...but they will cost your mothership. Crew could have the same complexity limits. So having 200 different ship cores docked to your ship is going to cost you, say, 100 crew members for maintenance (Because that 200 is added to ship complexity, which only needs to be recalculated when blocks are added. Heck, could have a 5 minute cooldown after last block added, so that 5 minutes after you finish building, it checks crew requirements, that way avoiding extra lag every time you place a block.

I'm not sure I see why your suggestion for drones has any drain on a mothership.

Frankly, i dont mind the idea, but im concerned for single player mode players like myself. I like to pit my ships against each other(allowing them to be under control by the pirates and such) and while i would like more of a challenge, i see the requirement for crew unless crew is automatically generated on NPC ships to allow it to function, or is saved when a blueprint is made killing any single player game, because ships wouldnt function properly without said crew(Turrets not working etc)

Also have a problem with *requiring* food, water etc. pay and space to sleep obviously. So possibly make that a config setting.

Config options to allow for not needing crew, having admin spawned ships automatically have crew, and/or make crew not have their costs is something that should be done.

 

[GDPR 302420]

I have been doing some brainstorming on how crew could halt a growing meta which I believe is harmful for the game, while also encouraging warfare and expansion between factions without allowing factions to grow too rapidly.

This suggestion has three main pillars.

1. Every Ship Needs A Pilot

The first pillar is how we prevent extreme entity spam, of mass drone and turret spam. Every ship needs a pilot to function, no matter how small. Spamming 4 dozen AI microdrones every battle quickly becomes impractical when this means you lose 4 dozen NPC pilots every battle, which take time and resources to replace. Having a huge number of turrets on a disproportionately small ship is impractical because it will make the ship need a huge amount of room dedicated to interior.

Larger ships also need additional crew besides their pilot and turret operators to keep their systems running effectively. This should probably increase linearly.

2. Planets Produce Pilots

The second pillar is how you get pilots.
Terran planets can be cheaply colonized with simple buildings and farms. Farms need NPCs to maintain them, and will constantly produce food. Any surplus is stored, and if there is enough surplus being produced, new NPCs will appear on the planet if there is available housing for them. You can recruit these NPCs to crew your ships and control your turrets, as well as colonize new planets. The limited speed at which new NPCs can be recruited puts a limit on how quickly a faction can expand and control its territory.

Other more hostile or alien planet types can also be farming colonies by setting up more expensive habitation and farm units compared to the simplicity of setting up on a terran world, but perhaps these would be better suited as mining colonies via the often suggested mantle extractors.

3. Pilots Need Room, Pay, And Food

The third pillar is how NPCs effect your ship and your overall faction economy.
NPCs require a place to sleep, a place to eat, and a place to work, at minimum. NPCs need to be payed for their work or they won't do it. And NPCs need food to stay alive, or they'll eventually starve to death. Pay and food should be mainly automated after figuring out initial set up. Colonies automatically produce food which is automatically transferred where it is needed where it is automatically consumed. Credits are automatically given to your crew for payment.
Unless you are running a negative, you can maintain your fleet and the NPCs running it indefinitely.
But it does limit how big your fleet can be based on how much territory you control, which forces you to expand if you want to have a larger fleet, whether that is of traders and manufacturing or for combat.

I am perplexed as to why this was not a thing the minute NPC fleets were added to the game.

I endorse this product and/or service.

 

[Nickizzy]

My reason is that if absolutely every ship requires NPCs, I can see griefers committing orbital bombardment on all habitable planets, destroying all ability to feed and house NPCs, and to destroy the supply of NPCs themselves.

Is this not an easy opening for some more faction interaction? You think anyone is gonna like gennocides? Faction relations are a thing, ya know.

 

[Kelpaz]

This would also create a new meta called "let's blow up all the planets"

 

[jayman38]

Is this not an easy opening for some more faction interaction? You think anyone is gonna like gennocides? Faction relations are a thing, ya know.

Griefers love genocides. They toast hotdogs and marshmallows over the ashes.

 

[Lone_Puppy]

This would also create a new meta called "let's blow up all the planets"

Lol! This would then require planetary defenses and give a real purpose for fleet defense. Instead of them just flying around the sector with not much to do.

Griefers love genocides. They toast hotdogs and marshmallows over the ashes.

Yeah this could be a problem, but again this would bring purpose to the AI fleets. Would also encourage factions to gather more members and also diversify what country they play from so you can at least have one faction member on to keep an eye on things.

I think these things can be worked out in someway. I remember it mentioned at one point that coming is the AI fleet orders being persistent while players are offline and after server reboots. This would go a long way to sorting protection of faction assets.

 

[Kelpaz]

I see the biggest problem with this idea would be keeping others from being able to start, by destroying any planets around their territory, making their faction the only viable means of crew production.
Defending your own planets is one thing but all the unclaimed unprotected ones would be at high risk of destruction since they could pose a threat from established factions.

It would be funny seeing people trying to stop the planetary annihilation in their local cluster.
It's not like this is an unthinkable scenario, my own faction wars on my private "creative" server has been quite crazy.
Some players made bases in the dark space outside the galaxy during our war phase to survive from the large established factions.

 

[Lecic]

This would also create a new meta called "let's blow up all the planets"

Or we could make it so you can't blow up planets?

 

[Lone_Puppy]

I see the biggest problem with this idea would be keeping others from being able to start, by destroying any planets around their territory, making their faction the only viable means of crew production.
Defending your own planets is one thing but all the unclaimed unprotected ones would be at high risk of destruction since they could pose a threat from established factions.

It would be funny seeing people trying to stop the planetary annihilation in their local cluster.
It's not like this is an unthinkable scenario, my own faction wars on my private "creative" server has been quite crazy.
Some players made bases in the dark space outside the galaxy during our war phase to survive from the large established factions.

Not sure why a faction would try defending unclaimed planets, but this could be something useful for keeping the Trading guild busy. Perhaps the planetary NPCs could also call out for assistance from neighboring factions. Would require some wickedly programmed AI, so might not be worth it unless something generic and simple could be thought of to embed in the individual NPC AI itself.

Or we could make it so you can't blow up planets?

But I like to blow up planets. Makes me fee all powerful like a demigod. ;-)
Plus, it's easier to mine.
Would be handy to mine the remains of the inhabitants. They'd make good fertilizer for my expensive to rent bio-domes.

 

[Lecic]

Plus, it's easier to mine.

Planet mining shouldn't even exist so this is a null point. They should exist as resource nodes for crew generation and mantle extractors.

 

[Lone_Puppy]

Planet mining shouldn't even exist so this is a null point. They should exist as resource nodes for crew generation and mantle extractors.

Hm... that would definitely remove the lagg issue.
But I would still like to rip a planet to pieces to mine like you can with Asteroids. Perhaps when they blow up they could convert to an asteroid cluster with less mass than the original planet. The asteroids could disperse to the original and surrounding sectors. Hm.. more lagg I guess. :-/

 

[Kelpaz]

From my experience running a server , ships on their own don't take too much performance, not even giant ones, what does however is AI and how many entities each ship has.
Background calculations also seem to bog down the server as they have to check all the factions, their territories, diplomacy etc.

The lag would scale immensely when you look at the bigger picture.
You would not need a large titan to crash the server it would just need a few players, their planets, their crew and all the background calculations on top of the ship entities oh yeah and the AI.

Not to mention the increasing learning curve that has turned down a few of my friends that I inspired to try this game.