Crafting needs to be looked at again.

[Neon_42]

I've spent the past few days playing around with the new crafting system. I am hard pressed to find anything nice to say about it. It is way overly complicated and inefficient. It literally takes 5 steps to make one shield capacitor. For blocks that we need to mass produce this makes absolutely no sense. The resources and time necessary to produce these in meaningful quantities is not fun or practical. This goes for any fundamental block in the game. To break it down for one shield capacitor block takes exactly 22 blocks to make:

32 parsun capsules
60 nocx capsules
12 nacht capsules
9 metal mesh
10 crystal circuits
Total: 113

Edited for math error
This means you have to mine
4 parsun shards
4 nocx shards
2 nacht ore
6 'random' ore
6 'random' shards

Totaling 22 blocks=1 Shield capacitor

For a block that is necessary to mass produce, this is absolutely ridiculous. It honestly feels like this wasn't reviewed before putting it in.

Of course this is one of the more complicated recipes in the game. However, this is for a fundamental block. Not a computer or something you need only rarely. This needs to be looked at again. Preferably soon. This in combination with figuring out what ores to use to make other blocks makes crafting way too frustrating of a task. For now It really only makes sense to play creative.

@schema , I hope this finds you well.

Spoiler: recipe

Spoiler: setup

 

[Comr4de]

It'd be doable if ore blocks dropped anywhere between 5-25 little ores when mined. As it is right now it's absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Calbiri]

I've been watching the comments and input on the crafting system, so thank you for the feedback.

First, I want to point out that each shard/ore gives 10 capsules, so "120 crystal capsules" (not shards) needed to make the crystal circuits is a fair bit cheaper than it seems (12 shards). This is by no means saying that shields are therefor cheap, they aren't, and they are not intended to be. Since there are no "rare ores" the only way to create a higher difficulty in attaining the higher tech level items is to increase the required materials to create them. I am looking at re-balancing what things cost and how many capsules you gain per block, but it was never our intent to make shields (or the other potent blocks) *easy* to get, so we will keep working on finding a proper feeling balance between ease-of-use and rarity-through-cost.

We released the system at its current because this is one of the best ways to get the systems tested and gather players input (we tried the "pre-release" system and frankly not many players ever opted to try those.)

We're attempting to balance the crafting system from the initial astronaut stage (with no gear besides your wrist tool) and the largest of mining arrays. This is why the recipes may feel a bit harder at early stages, and that is something I've been looking at ways of improve through various methods, some of which are already in the current dev build :

Filter storage, logic control, improved power guns, etc.

I hope this helps give some insight on where we were, are, and trying to get to with this system.

 

[ToyotaSupra]

I've been watching the comments and input on the crafting system, so thank you for the feedback.

First, I want to point out that each shard/ore gives 10 capsules, so "120 crystal capsules" (not shards) needed to make the crystal circuits is a fair bit cheaper than it seems (12 shards). This is by no means saying that shields are therefor cheap, they aren't, and they are not intended to be. Since there are no "rare ores" the only way to create a higher difficulty in attaining the higher tech level items is to increase the required materials to create them. I am looking at re-balancing what things cost and how many capsules you gain per block, but it was never our intent to make shields (or the other potent blocks) *easy* to get, so we will keep working on finding a proper feeling balance between ease-of-use and rarity-through-cost.

We released the system at its current because this is one of the best ways to get the systems tested and gather players input (we tried the "pre-release" system and frankly not many players ever opted to try those.)

We're attempting to balance the crafting system from the initial astronaut stage (with no gear besides your wrist tool) and the largest of mining arrays. This is why the recipes may feel a bit harder at early stages, and that is something I've been looking at ways of improve through various methods, some of which are already in the current dev build :

Filter storage, logic control, improved power guns, etc.

I hope this helps give some insight on where we were, are, and trying to get to with this system.

Brilliant, glad you've been listening to us. Do you know where the latest dev build can be found, because the page the builds are stored comes up either with a 404 or a 403.

(or are they no longer public?)

EDIT It's there, thanks.

 

[Calbiri]

the new launcher (mentioned in the news) should have an option to download the dev build

 

[Neon_42]

@Calbiri Ah I see, I did the math backwards. My mistake, I have corrected the calculations above. However I still see little method to the madness that is the crafting system. There does not seem to be a sense of progression.

What's more is there are parts that make no sense at all. Why do hull blocks require different ores based on color? They should all be the same ore with a different paint. Do not get rid of paint. This system works as it stands. If it is not broke don't fix it. The crafting of paint however seems to be off.

Why are the most commonly used blocks the most laborious to make? Maybe power and shield generators could be a little expensive. But storage units should be cheap. This would also help balance combat A ship with a lot of power and shield generators would be a high risk high reward style of play. Whilst ships and bases with larger capacitors would be economically safer.

Decorative blocks should be pretty cheap as they don't add anything but aesthetics. Computers can be really expensive as we don't need much of them, plus they are realistically the most complicated pieces of equipment.

Weapons can also be pretty expensive as 1) realistically they too are complicated equipment 2) this would be interesting as to how we play. Would I spend my resources on cannons, beams, or whatever. Why are there 5 steps to making anything? This issue isn't so bad, but it really is quite complicated when you start re-using the same parts over at different stages of construction. there should be obvious stages of construction.

The last thing I have to say is that your players are not rocket scientists. The system should be as simple as possible. To the point where harvesting and building a ship in game is a better option than buying one. This is not license to nerf buying a ship to fit in a crappy crafting system. They are two parts of the same game mechanic.

IMO the system as is needs to be completely torn down and re-looked at. I'm pretty sure that is not going to happen though. So if you want my input on how to fix the current system I will be happy to help. I also think this should be done in the next update or two. Probably not the next as you are aiming for Friday, but in its current state. I find the game to be completely unplayable without the use of admin commands.

On a side note. I kinda liked the recipe system we had before. There was a thrill of getting a rare good recipe. It gave me a sense that I was progressing though the game. What's more is it was fun to fight over good recipies. If someone had a hard hull recipe for 2 rock I would try and extort it out of them. I'd raid bases and harass their undocked ships to try and get them to surrender it. It was fun and added competition to the game. Maybe we could get something like that back?

 

[aceface]

this all seems to get solved when the amount of capsules per ore/crystal are increased. my friend found the hotspot to be around 100 capsules per ore/crystal

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I personally don't have any problem with the crafting system, except maybe that certain things (power reactor modules, glass and hull) either are inconsistent (for the hull and glass) or to hard to make (power reactor modules).

But if you were to first invest in a salvage ship, you would be able to get more than enough ores/shards from planets.

Just a couple of other things:

• You shouldn't have to calculate how much of each you need for a mass production. A block that would collect items and only send items out when they have met a certain quantity. Example: this block would collect some ore and rock capsules for hull. Once it has got 12 identical ore capsules and 120 identical rock capsules, it would send them all through. It would be nice if this block could send the different blocks to different places (in my example it would be able to send the ore capsules to a micro assembler and the rock capsules to a macro assembler, to which the micro assembler would be linked). This would make automated factories a lot easier to make. You also could more easily make multiple crafting chains with just one refinery.
• There should be a way to transport cargo automatically, both from your inventory and from chests (and micro/macro assemblers and refineries).

I personally think that the problem is with the economy. As it is right now, it will always be easier to just only use the shop and salvage every abandoned station you see.

 

[jayman38]

@Calbiri
...To the point where harvesting and building a ship in game is a better option than buying one. This is not license to nerf buying a ship to fit in a crappy crafting system. They are two parts of the same game mechanic.

Complete ships currently have a cost of the components involved. To acceptably nerf ship-buying, maybe add a server-configurable "construction cost" to the final price for blueprints. E.g. 5k for each dimensional meter. So if you have a 30x15x20 ship, the added labor cost is about 5k x (30+15+20) = 325k. For a ship that small, that's a pretty good increase in price, making the built-vs-bought price balance lean more towards "built", which is appropriate for the capitalistic concept of "added value". Instead of dimensional meter, maybe you could base the labor cost on the number of subsystems in the ship, plus hull count (or upcoming hp count). (The better to punish deathcubes, my dear.) Pardon my ignorance if "construction cost" is already added to the final blueprint price.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Edit: What?!!!! It posted the same message twice?!!!! The original message is below.

 

[NeonSturm]

Why are the most commonly used blocks the most laborious to make? Maybe power and shield generators could be a little expensive. But storage units should be cheap. This would also help balance combat A ship with a lot of power and shield generators would be a high risk high reward style of play. Whilst ships and bases with larger capacitors would be economically safer.

Yes to cheaper power storage, no to cheaper power storage blocks.
Nothing against added mass, but I think the required space would hurt RP.

If power tanks would be expensive but storing more - maybe 10'000 power per module - you get very close to a regenerative fuel system.

Would fit nice together with heat-absorbers (decrease energy wasted, thus increase energy spend. Can even regenerate energy on planets (slow) or near suns (fast)

Decorative blocks should be pretty cheap as they don't add anything but aesthetics. Computers can be really expensive as we don't need much of them, plus they are realistically the most complicated pieces of equipment.

Expensive computers would hurt small fighters.

Weapons can also be pretty expensive as 1) realistically they too are complicated equipment 2) this would be interesting as to how we play.

true

...
(YES, they CAN :D)

You have a valid point here. I like the idea of small weapons channelling huge amounts of energy (like with EVE weapons), but there needs to be a way to make battle-cube stuff not OP in terms of evasion.

How about mass^(2/3 = surface/volume) = heat dissipation?
Heat absorbers could increase that value, but they would take huge amounts of space as weapons produce really much heat.

The last thing I have to say is that your players are not rocket scientists. The system should be as simple as possible. To the point where harvesting and building a ship in game is a better option than buying one

For some this is the interesting part.

Although it is more interesting making ships you already have build better / more special (like a hero in a RPG) as opposed to with producing a new every time.

On a side note. I kinda liked the recipe system we had before. There was a thrill of getting a rare good recipe. It gave me a sense that I was progressing though the game. What's more is it was fun to fight over good recipies. If someone had a hard hull recipe for 2 rock I would try and extort it out of them. I'd raid bases and harass their undocked ships to try and get them to surrender it. It was fun and added competition to the game. Maybe we could get something like that back?

Glad to see I am not the only person writing "recip_i_es" and thus triggering the annoying firefox spell check alone :D

Expanding on this part, it could be some fun if you have recipes which work a limit number of times.

You could get an emergency kit with a blueprint that gives you

1. blocks to spawn a certain (small) ship
2. a power supply gun or a reactor and assembler stuff
   
3. consumes 1 of itself, thus has a limit of 1 use

Or a recipe that modifies the production of an assembler by 1.2x products but using this recipe as ingredient (better results with more enhancers), but only if you don't have already bought such a recipe today.

1. Peoples would trade to produce as much as possible in one step with the recipe they currently own.

 

[Greenfire32]

One way I think crafting/mining could be improved is by:

Include a "mining laser" or a "drilling platform" (single or multi-block structure that must be part of either a ship or a station) and change terrain blocks so that they all contain ores, ore deposits or not. When mining by hand, the player would only be able to process ore received from deposits (like it is currently), but when using a "mining laser" or "drilling platform," ALL terrain blocks contain a random amount of random ore (limit say 1-3 shards) and ore deposits release twice as much (limit say 25-50. think like a macerator from the Tekkit mod for minecraft).

This would allow for the necessary resources to conduct mass-production of blocks and would alleviate the pressures of super complicated recipes. Bear in mind, you'd still need to go "through the motions" of making, say, the shield block, but you wouldn't be spending too much time getting everything together.

As aceface and others said above, there just needs to be more return on mining to make crafting even worthwhile. As it stands now, it is much more efficient to just sell junk to shops and buy what you need, rather than make what you need yourself.

I, myself, gave "survival" a try for the first time last night and spent around an hour getting enough things together for a power reactor. Just one.

Ships need hundreds of those...

Either the amount of gathered ores needs to increase, or we need some way to mass-mine (preferably both).

 

[Yetimania]

Today I just tried testing out the crafting system for the first time. I scrounged up enough for a salvager with a few hundred salvage beams and mined some asteroids. Then I built a factory, with the intent of cranking out more salvage beams.
What I found was that each asteroid I mined gave me the resources to build 1-2 salvage beam modules and that the large number of resource blocks with names devoid from reality really confused me. And I'm a smart cookie.
What would you guys think about this:
1. Changing the names of ores to more real-world/familiar science-fictiony ones (iron, tin, copper, crystal, adamantine, lead, whatever, instead of the hard-on-dyslexic-people parsen, parstun, nox, nacht). Alternatively, renaming them so each ore/whatever starts with a different letter, so you can just mentally refer to them as 'ore A', 'ore B', etc. I didn't even realize Parsen and Parstun were different until I was several hours in.
2. Increasing the yield from salvaging. Whether that's allowing non-ore terrain blocks to be rendered down for low amounts of capsules or increasing the number of capsules from each or some other solution, we want to encourage mining as much as possible. Manufacturing individual blocks should be easy considering the vast number of them required to build spaceships and stations.

 

[Neon_42]

@Yetimania I like your first point. The second one I'm not yet convinced that increasing yields will really solve the problem, but it is something that should be looked at.

 

[NeonSturm]

Without linked factories and a to-do list crafting sux

so you can just mentally refer to them as 'ore A', 'ore B', etc. I didn't even realize Parsen and Parstun

Babylon ore :D

I have difficulties to see in names which are ores and which shards. Then kupu made shards look like ores and ores splitterd like shards by having ID ranges x+0..7 and x+0..15 confused in at least one texture pack. :/

Luckily the fix for this is just 2 copy+pastes apart

 

[Neon_42]

@Calbiri what are improved power blocks? Did you guys really add another block into the game?

@NeonSturm

Expensive computers would hurt small fighters.

I don't think so. Fighters cant really carry more than 1 or 2 weapon systems anyway. So spending 120 or so blocks on up to 6 computers seems okay to me.

How about mass^(2/3 = surface/volume) = heat dissipation?
Heat absorbers could increase that value, but they would take huge amounts of space as weapons produce really much heat.

I kinda like the idea of adding something like this but I think, but we need the other stuff to work first . Truth be told, battle cubes make the most sense in terms of combat as they would have the lowest moment of inertia. Really spheres would but I don't think the game can calculate that properly. Cubes would also be the most efficient heat dissipators as they have large surfaces to mount heat sinks. I don't think this will solve your problem. Also that formula makes zero sense, can't have an equal sign inside parenthesis like that.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

...
What I found was that each asteroid I mined gave me the resources to build 1-2 salvage beam modules and that the large number of resource blocks with names devoid from reality really confused me. And I'm a smart cookie.
...

To get more you need to:

• Link salvage cannons to beams.
• Salvage planets, because they have way more ores/crystals.

Also, after a while you will get used to the names. I really like them btw.

 

[Theck]

Also, after a while you will get used to the names. I really like them btw.

Something I think will help a lot it's to add a sufix to know if we'll get circuits or metal from them. If all metal producers ens in "-tal" and all circuits in "-cris" for example, "Zernanertal" and "Hattelcris".

Now I've ordered the capsules in an storage grouped in those who produce circuits, metal and the other ones.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Each ore/crystal already has ore/crystal in it's name, for example nocx crystal and nacht ore.

 

[Theck]

Yes but you use the capsules, wich loses this name (as far as I remember, I don't have the game to see it now)