Cloaking and radar jamming rework - with computer and modules

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    Hi

    Cloaking is really weird, and the main criteria of cloaking shouldn't be having absurd power requirements and rather having to have cloaking blocks with efficiency placed in the ship. How I think it should be:

    Cloaking and radar jamming should be fused together. Radar jammer is just an obstruction to the limits of possible game-view. You can see way less then you would see in real life. Taking the possibility to track somebody with radar/hud is not really a nice thing. Another thing could be, something causes you to have your cursor do random movements, which will disturb you. The effect is: It becomes harder for you to aim. Contra: It is an annoying and bad mechanic, because it influences your control mechanisms. Radar jammer is similar to that. However, if you are cloaked, it makes quite a lot sense to be also stealthed from radar.

    Based on the amount of cloaking blocks connected to a cloaking computer, the penalties of leaving stealth are reduced. There must be a reason why somebody would place or refuse to place cloak in his ship.

    Note: There will be a twist to the listed values based on the amount of stealth module blocks connected to the stealth computer.

    1. Firing will break stealth and set it on 10-40 seconds cooldown (based on ship mass).
    Permanent stealth while in combat would be too powerful.

    2. After leaving stealth, power regeneration is lowered to 20% for an amount of time based on mass (10-40 seconds).
    This should promote hit-and-run playstyles where damage is dealt quickly. Also this encourages cloaking ships to focus more on power storage. However, ships with minimum stealth capabilities should use stealth only to be safe, and not to combat. That safety should have its price, but a rather small one.

    3. Entering stealth increases all damage taken and block damage by a huge amount (like ~300%) for 5-20 seconds after breaking stealth (by hostile fire).

    4. While in stealth energy net generation is reduced by ~80%.
    The stealther is patient. Also his recharging energy which translates into damage should be lower.

    5. Stealth requires some kind of warmup to be activated, meaning: They reduce power generation even while on standby. It should be like -25% to overall power generation. Maybe stealth could be completely deactivated (with right click), but this would require a long reactivation time.
    This is a direct DPS malus... not everyone who can spare some room for stealth should take it because it might be useful. A ship should be dedicated to being a stealth ship.

    6. Placing module blocks (similar to those effect computers/blocks) will negate penalties and define how dedicated the ship is to being a stealth ship. I imagine the following types of stealth classes:
    a) The stealth bomber. A ship having a 100% module saturation.
    b) The semi-stealth warship. They can use stealth to ambush weaker targets, but to engage a worthy enemy, they destealth from afar to get battle-ready. 50% module efficiency should be enough.
    c) The civil stealth ship. They use stealth to avoid ambushes and enemies completely. ~30% module efficiency is enough here.

    To the numbers: Module efficiency ranges from 0% of overall blocks to ~20% by 0% to 100%. Beginning from 0% - 100%, this will happen:
    - The cooldown goes down by 0-80%.
    - Power regeneration malus duration upon destealth lowered by 0-80%.
    - Energy net generation reduction while stealthing is reduced by 0-80%. (This might decide if warping while stealthing is possible or not)
    - Overall power generation malus is reduced by 0-60%.

    Disadvantage: You still have to invest a lot of blocks into stealth.

    This should grant more design options for ships of all sizes. Also: Counter with scanner. Scanner size defines the radius of automatic detection and detection upon activation. Range might be around 0.1 - 0.4km, double for active use.
     
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    Well put, however I believe stealth like this should be breakable by something more than a scanner. For example while scouting I can be uncovered at 10km by a small scanner docked to a station. I would like to see dedicated stealth ships with high resistance to scanners, at the cost of something else
     

    MeRobo

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    How about basing the resistance against scanners on the mass of the stealth modules compared to the mass of the ship they are placed on. The strenght of the scanner could decrease based on range, the scanners size would increase the range. In my opinion there should be a cap on scanner resistance to make invincible stealth impossible.
     
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    This sounds reasonably, but I didn't count that part as very important... but it looks like it deserves some more thought.
    Also invincibility should be impossible, as combat will reveal you and keep you revealed. You may stay stealthed permanently however... but maybe an unmanned ship will deactivate its invisibility after 5 minutes, just so it will not get lost forever if parked somewhere...
     

    MeRobo

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    I think noone wants some invisble ship blocking a hangar, therefore I think there has to be a range at which any stealthed ship gets spotted by a unit equipped with scanners (or alternative anti stealth device).
     
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    I think noone wants some invisble ship blocking a hangar, therefore I think there has to be a range at which any stealthed ship gets spotted by a unit equipped with scanners (or alternative anti stealth device).
    +1
    If you're close enough to bump into a cloaked ship you should be able to discern some form of sillouette with the naked eye even. Think of the Predator, impossible to spot at a distance, but up close you can tell something is there even of it is just a blur.
     

    MeRobo

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    Some invisibility visual effect (sounds weird) would be nice but probably isn't (and in my opinion shouldn't be) a high priority thing.
     
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    Some invisibility visual effect (sounds weird) would be nice but probably isn't (and in my opinion shouldn't be) a high priority thing.
    Even patial transparency at detection range could work as a quick fix.
     
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    Well, I think the main issue is to make them viable without horrendous energy consumption, rather than discussing detection mechanisms in case they are made viable.
     

    MeRobo

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    If you want to improve something (and I think stealth needs to be improved) you need to think of balancing too, so the improvement doesn't make the system to be improved over powered.
     

    Lecic

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    Combining cloaking and jamming into a single system is... a horrible idea. Seriously. A lot of ships use jamming for a tactical advantage, at the cost of requiring higher power gen. Cloaking is for full on stealth. Jamming is for partial stealth, and combining them ruins a lot of fair and legitimate tactics.

    AI will still fire at jammed targets with reduced accuracy. The hard counter to jammed ships is turrets and a quick scanner.

    My ideal cloaking and jamming system would be passive systems similar to effects that will cloak or jam a ship for a certain amount of time based off the percentage of the total ship comprised of these modules. Having the percentage required for max efficiency allows you to perma-cloak or jam. Going over the limit for permastealth allows to to recover faster if destealthed by scanners. If the scanners have less power than the stealth systems, they can't even destealth the ship.

    For example- The requirement for permajam is 5% of the ship's mass. Jim's ship has 10% of its mass in jamming modules, which is 1000 mass. Bob hits Jim's ship with a scanner capable of breaking 2000 blocks worth of jamming, so Jim's jamming drops. The normal rejam timer is, say, 30 seconds after getting dropped by a scanner, but because Jim has twice the amount of jammers needed, he can rejam after just 15 seconds.
     

    MeRobo

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    Combining cloaking and jamming into a single system is... a horrible idea. Seriously. A lot of ships use jamming for a tactical advantage, at the cost of requiring higher power gen. Cloaking is for full on stealth. Jamming is for partial stealth, and combining them ruins a lot of fair and legitimate tactics.
    I would like the jammer as a computer and module block and stealth as a computer and module block which has both effects, jamming and cloaking because cloaking without jamming at the same time seems pretty pointless to me (I might be wrong and if PvP experience (something I don't have) tells that cloaking without jamming isn't pointless, I'd believ it).
     

    Lecic

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    I would like the jammer as a computer and module block and stealth as a computer and module block which has both effects, jamming and cloaking because cloaking without jamming at the same time seems pretty pointless to me (I might be wrong and if PvP experience (something I don't have) tells that cloaking without jamming isn't pointless, I'd believ it).
    Cloaking without jamming is worthless, yeah. I wouldn't mind cloaking also coming with automatic jamming. The way the OP is worded sounded like the standalone jamming system would be completely removed, is all.
     
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    Radar jamming alone has the flaw, that seeing enemies is restricted to pure vision, which is restricted by technical displaying methods. For example, in a car you have much better controls and view than in a virtual car. Reallife view is superior to a singular 2D monitor. And having the display of the target, where it actually is, is just a way to compensate that problematic for the player. Removing that is just like you close one eye for a car driver.

    An offensive radar jammer is another thing - target a ship and use it on it (or just some AoE effect), and cause some disturbances. Or if there are long-range detection satelites (stations) which reveal approaching enemies from very far away and monitor their movement, a radar jammer would actually get a real use... sneaking to enemy sectors "under" the radar undetected. However if the ship with the radar jammer is within ~1000-2000m range, it should have no effect to those ships, as only the issue above applies (Maybe if they keep out of combat it still applies?).

    It's about game mechanics, which do not affect things or values via decision or skill and rather the player controls or displays. It's like somebody comes over to you and shakes you in order to cause some "game effect."

    Also the question arises, if not all ships can have radar jammer installed anyways, because it's power costs are low enough to have it on everything with proper energy builds. That makes the whole thing less a decision (do I get a radar jammer or not?) and more a "wellp, I could also just throw one on it... why not?" The function of stealth as suggested above and the current radar jammer is essentially the same - being invisible for the enemy.
    Plus AI ignores radar jammer (rightfully). You can't rattle and annoy AIs like you can do with humans, and such effects will barely have any effects on them unless you specifically program them to be worse in those cases.

    You see, there are many reasons regarding gameplay, why it would get obsolete, and even why it is not a nice thing right now.
     

    MeRobo

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    Also the question arises, if not all ships can have radar jammer installed anyways, because it's power costs are low enough to have it on everything with proper energy builds. That makes the whole thing less a decision (do I get a radar jammer or not?) and more a "wellp, I could also just throw one on it... why not?"
    That problem no longer exists as soon as the radar jamming system needs more than just one block. A decent jamming system would take up space which otherwise could be used for mobility enhancing, defensive or offensive systems. To encourage players to use more than just one modul+computer (assuming that jamming system with computer+module will be introduced) I could immagine:
    1. For the best power efficiency there needs to be certain percentage of mass/block count to be radar jammer modules
    2. Unless a certain percentage of mass/block count is radar jammer modules the ship can be detected by scanners on longer range
    3. Both of the above
     

    StormWing0

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    I'd leave them separate with their own computers and modules. Radar Jamming just hides you nav marker, Cloaking just makes your ship or station invisible, Now using them together should be a bit more rewarding and there are valid reasons for using one or the other but not both.

    For example a ship with a jammer and black hull is as hard to see at range as a cloaked ship just easier to find. Good for playing mind games with people at least. :)
     

    MeRobo

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    For example a ship with a jammer and black hull is as hard to see at range as a cloaked ship
    Do you know the background pictures? They counter black hull as space camouflage in many cases.
     
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    Doesn't the jammer reduce enemy missile accuracy when it's on? If it does I might be more inclined to put them on my fighters.

    Anyhow, that's another reason not to get rid of the jammer altogether.
     
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    Doesn't the jammer reduce enemy missile accuracy when it's on?
    Like homing missiles? No, they all still track you, but only Bobby can fire on you with a Jammer on. Jammers are pretty vital for any personally flown fighter though unless you like dying alot, as like someone earlier said, they reduce AI accuracy, which makes you very hard to hit in small ships