Changing engine and turning mechanics to make small ships actually useful

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    First of all is that engines should all act seperatly so all engines regardless of location will behave like one big cluster of engines. Once this has been done the engine power vs mass will decide turning rates AND the ammount of engine power for every engines will have diminishing returns by adding a ^0.66 or something like that to the engine power vs ammout of engines forumula. The results of this will be

    a. Spamming shields will make movement very difficult due to all the extra weight from the power systems and the shields allowing lighter ships to completly outclass you in a firefight making larger ships assualt vechiles for taking out a spacestation or as carriers rather than grim reapers able to one shot smaller ships yet at the same time being able to take a large ammount of punishment before going down.

    b. This will add a cap to the size of ships as eventually the extra thrust from more engines would in fact not offset the engines own mass meaning that a planet sized death ship will be so slow it might as well be a space station.

    c. Having a dock full of smaller ships will be vital and will mean that people wil have to strategise in combat. If a smaller ship goes up to you and opens fire it will be necesary to scramble the fighters making a carrier class ship much more inviting of an option. People will have to think more about it rather than going "block of shields" "block of engines" "block of power" "massive guns array" followed by flying around like a humming bird one shotting everything.

    d. The creation of a flimsy ship class system which will only really be able to fight eachother. Medium sized cruisers will have massive difficulty with taking out a dreadnought due the the crazy shield regen whilst the massive dreadnought won't be nimble enough to engage and small ships will have the same thing going on with cruisers. Only ships of similar size classes or large swarms of the smaller class vs a larger one will be the way to go and add a lot more strategy to the game.

    So far the only problem I can think of with this idea is that it will make turrets overpowered due to being able to go on the broadside of the ship and be incredibly quick (which is also a blessing as this will allow said large ship to compete with a massive swarm of small whips). to balance this the size of turrets turrets should negatively impact the turning rate far more than if it was not attatched and functioned as a ship meaning that turrets will run on the same guidelines. Large turrets with huge weapon batteries and a massive shields array will be for taking out large ships, they will turn very slowly. Medium size turrets will be for taking out cruisers whilst tiny flak turrets will take out fighters which in turn fighters could focus there efforts on and be an even match against.





    My suggestions would make a game where size is not a linear scale but instead a large ship will be far slower. Thus creating the need for strikecraft on board, turrets as well as allowing small ships to be very useful in combat rather than awful starting ships that exist by the kindness of passing strangers not turning the cannons on you in their dreadnought, instead making it so the fighter can advoid the dreadnought altogether with it's speed or harrass it if it manages to take out the smaller turrets. Even the richest players will have great use for smaller ships so they can scout.

    Feedback, further suggestions and telling me what ideas you liked/ pointing out problems with balancing will always be appreciated :)
     
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    im not exactly sure what youre suggesting. you mean make it all one big dimension instead of calculating each individual cluster? Why would you reward placing blocks further apart from another? couldnt I then just place 6 blocks, each 1 sector in each direction and have a nearly invisible but impossibly powerful hyperthruster?
     
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    You simply make it so that the only variable in thrust is the ammount of engines overall to the power of about 0.9.

    so an example would be

    Thrust=Engines^0.9 where placement isn\'t a factor. I think this would work since a large ammount of small boosters should be equal to one giant booster.

    ^0.9 so that massive ships can\'t be fast and nimble unless they are essentially made of engines.
     
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    i disagree big ships should be able to reach higher speeds but have less acceleration and smaller ships are more nimble right now if you know how to build a decent ass ship
     
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    When I say quick I\'m talking about acceleration and turning only.
     

    2hu

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    The reason big ships are so overpowered is their price. Right now it\'s too easy to get credits. This is fine for now, since Schema wants people to push the system, but eventually credits/materials will be harder to get and large ships should be a lot more expensive. A lone fighter should not be able to take down a capship; this isn\'t Star Wars. Turrets are fine as they are; if you get enough bombers you can probably get a few down.

    As for thrusters, I think we need directional thrust, so that wouldn\'t go very well with your idea of making them one big blob.
     
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    I\'m not suggesting that a fighter can take down a cap ship. I\'m suggesting that the cap ship should have to rely on it\'s smaller turrets to take down the fighter. I\'m saying it should not be able to fire it\'s massive main cannons at the fighter if the figther pilot has any idea what they are doing so the fighter can at least harass the cap ship and start attacking key systems in a large scale battle where another cap ship took the shields down without it spinning round and opening fire with it\'s nuclear chaingun mega railgun of uber death.

    This way capital ships would have their main guns and giant turrets for other cap shis. Medium turrets and broadside fire for cruisers, and flak turrets to take out fighters.

    If you have played the space battles in star wars battlefront 2 it would be similar to that with dog fights and bombers attacking the cap weapon systems etc.
     
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    Other then some people here i actualy understood what he said in his first post and all of it makes sense.
     

    2hu

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    Fighter pilots, if they know what they\'re doing, can already avoid a capships main guns; this is why people spam turrets already. I know this firsthand since I usually pilot a capship - It is difficult to back up and turn fast enough to aim at a fighter or other small craft, and even once they\'re in front of you, tracking and aiming is still very hard. However, I do agree somewhat that the way capships can just back up to get ships back in their field of fire is somewhat overpowered. But still, it really shouldn\'t be the case that a fighter is chasing down a capship.

    Directional thrust would definitely be a boost to fighters as far as maneuverability goes: A fighter might only need forward, and maybe sideways thrust, since it would be able to turn quickly enough that it can focus its powerful (relative to its mass) forward thrusters in the direction the pilot wants to go. A capship, though, takes much longer to turn, and so it would need thrusters going in all six directions for full mobility, which would be one-sixth of the thrust than if all the thrusters were in the same direction (maybe less, because thrusters have the dimension bonus). Obviously, if the capship wanted to have just have all their thrusters going forward, it would be unable to perform the same acrobatics that capships are capable today, because it would only have one direction of thrust and a terrible turn speed.
     
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    Just make it so that large ships can\'t accelerate insanely fast. If your ship is > 10k mass it\'s going to take you a minute or two to turn around regardless how many engines you place. The problem is that it can still move in any direction nearly instantly (just without a facing change)... which is kind of dumb and doesn\'t make any sense.
     
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    Experiments and results:

    60mass, 100m long, controlled from core/center 0 thrust: ~12 seconds to do a 360

    60 mass, cube shaped, controlled from core/center, 0 thrust: ~12 seconds to do a 360

    60 mass, cube shaped with 237.3 thrust controlled from core/center: ~12 seconds for a 360.

    60 Mass, 100m long, controlled from core/center, 237.7 thrust: ~12 seconds

    60 mass, 100m long, controlled from core/center, Side facing thrusters at the far points of the \"ship\": (odd note, the animation for the engines still points to the rear despite making sure thruster is facing sideways) ~12 seconds

    60 mass, 100m long, 237.3 thrust Controlled from the cockpit at front of ship: ~12 seconds

    60 mass, 100m long, 237.3 thrust, Controlled from rear of ship: (rather disorienting controlling from the rear) ~12 seconds.



    Conclusion: the only thing that matters for turning (as of the time of this posting) is the mass of the ship. Not where you control, nor how much thrust you have.

    Hopefully the turning physics will be improved, either by adding \"Manuvering thrusters\" or making turning physics be bassed off of thrust/mass so you can design more manueverability or more shields/weapons/whatever into your ship.



    A simpler method than calculating engine position compared to the core and facing, or adding another block type may be to simply change from using total mass to mass/thrust in the turn speed calculation. Obviously some tweaking in the code would need to be done to use this smaller number but that should be simple. Thrusters have diminishing returns as far as I can tell so while using mass/thrust super massive ships shouldn\'t ever be able to be as maneuverable as much smaller ships.

    With this system you could add more engines, upping your thrust, to increase turn rate. Or you could choose to be more powerful in other ways.

    A more complicated calculation should be used so \"fighters/bombers\" turn faster even with an equivalent mass/thrust ratio to a \"titan\". For example my current fighter is 147.5 mass (not counting turrets, I\'m not sure if they add to the total mass) and it has 204 thrust so that ratio is .723. With the current system it takes ~25 seconds for this ship to do a 360. I\'d like that to be around 10 seconds I think (I\'d need to play with it, but with this system a ship could be easily customized to turn at a rate you like, within reason). However if a ship had 72303 mass and 10,000 thrust it would also have a .723 mass/thrust ratio; but it shouldn\'t be able to turn as fast as the fighter, so some sort of consideration must be taken to prevent titans from turning like fighters.

    Maybe a tier system: 0-300 mass = fighter, 301-600 = bomber and so on, each with it\'s own configurable speed multiplier. These are totally off the top of my head so feel free to suggest different tiers, or make them configurable (I love messing with config files). So a \"fighter\" could have a tier rating of 1 giving a calculation of (147.5/204)*1 so a .723 ratio. Whereas the \"titan\" could have a tier rating of .5 giving a calculation of (72303/10000)*.5 equaling a .3615 ratio. Then maybe make the ratio be 36 degrees per second * the ratio, giving my \"fighter\" a turn rate of 26.028 degrees per second. That would make it take ~14 seconds to turn 360 degrees. The \"titan\" would therefore turn at 13 degrees per second or one rotation per 28 seconds (that seems fast, maybe make the tier smaller?). Again, these are off the top of my head number that seem to work so if you have better ideas I\'m open to suggestions.

    Edit: I\'m a derp, this only works if thrust>mass, would someone fix my math, while I go study for my trig test because I obviously need to >.>



    I also saw a suggestion to make engines configurable like weapons, which I thought was spiffy.

    tldr: mass/thrust is spiffy