cannons should change next

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    one thing ive noticed with the latest shield rebalance is that people seem to think everything else in the game is at its final stage and wont change. that the shields need to be balanced to fit the current weapon set. so instead of assuming an alpha will never change, im going to suggest rebalance of cannons next.

    so first off, and i saw a thread about this once before, why not rename the AMC. because just like it said in that other thread, if you know what anti-matter actually is its pretty odd to have something called an anti-matter cannon only destroy one block. now for the actual balancing.

    why not make smaller cannons fire faster and bigger ones fire slower? double the damage per shot gained per block, but also reverse the rate of fire gain to a loss and make the starting ROF for one block really high, but the damage only 1. in effect making tiny machine guns and gigantic slow artilery. then, to make up for the obvious lack of DPS that the really big ones will have, give the cannon a slight AOE effect. at first this would be so small it does nothing, but once your cannon reaches a certain ammount of blocks then it can start to do very small AOE, so a really big one could have the same AOE as a small missile.

    the main problem i can see with the current way cannons and shields work is that capitals can eat eachothers shields really fast because of the huge cannons they usually have. a cannon rebalance similar to this would encourage use of small/medium weapons, make the new shields not crumble like bread in a capital fight, and fight gigantism since ofcourse big guns would then have a drawback. the same could be said mostly for missiles too, but theres no problem with missiles vs a shield since they dont damage shields.
     
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    I can\'t speak to what the folks who\'ve been here longer and designed the popular monstrous ships/turrets on the catalog do, but personally...

    I am not sure that this is really the best solution for AMCs... Right now I, and I assume anyone else who pays attention to what the game rules encourage, use checkerboarded single AMCs in small things because they are incredibly DPS-efficient and you can alternate them with shields or armor, and for big things I use larger blocks of AMCs (My only real capital ship so far has 190k DPS from its main guns, which are divided into six barrels containing 7x7x9 blocks of AMCs (some have less due to power rails or the like running through them), and it obviously has checkerboarded AMC turrets with good coverage

    Now your suggestion seems to be to basically turn the checkerboarded single-AMCs into popguns, which I\'m fine with because firing thousands and thousands of projectiles from thousands and thousands of weapon units is hard on servers, and turn big ones into AOE cannons (but do we want more things that ignore armor? Right now you have to use more projectiles to get AOE-like effects from AMCs). But if all the sizes are not equally useful then we will simply find the most optimal one, or most optimal one which doesn\'t lag everything to hell (this is why the aforementioned ship doesn\'t have checkerboarded main guns - I tested it and the game ran at the speed of molasses while I was firing).

    For instance in Star Ruler, every gun I put on every ship is the lowest possible size. And then I put the rack mount on it and make that 4.0 size (or the most I can fit on the ship). Because that is the most efficient way to get the best DPS, and the only thing which is more efficient is making an artillery cannon set up to snipe planets or stars from across the galaxy, and then only because you don\'t have to go anywhere, risk anything, or spend any more time managing any of your guys, to exterminate everyone else in the game.

    I think the way to make capital ships more survivable is to make armor work better. In the default settings, hardened armor is practically worthless and you\'re better off making a whole bunch of empty space and random rock walls (or just surrounding your ship in a huge shell of rock) so that incoming AMCs bounce all over the place and hit nothing important. The other problem with armor, of course, is that missiles pay no heed to the armor value, and will obliterate 10 layers of hardened armor as easily as 10 layers of papier-mâché. Of course, there might be performance problems to trying to make 200 missiles hitting nearly simultaneously check the armor values of all the tiles they\'re AOEing... Who knows!

    I\'m not going to speculate on damage types since that\'s likely on the agenda already.
     
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    yes, that would turn single block AMCs into popguns. maybe not so low as 1 damage but pretty low.

    and as for AOE on a big one, thats to make up for the extreamly low rate of fire they would have. having a gigantic cannon that does high damage and fires once every 10 seconds but only destroys one block is pretty stupid. and it would be nowhere near as much AOE as missiles have.

    i have star ruler too :D i used to do a bunch of tiny ones like that and one huge one on external mount. have not played it in a long time though

    and i think everybody agrees armor needs some work too. but my focus with this suggestion is to make cannons not eat shields instantly in large scale fights. come to think of it, this would make armor even more wothless. HEY SCHEMA, while youre at it make armor about 4x as tough lol.
     
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    The thing is, right now, you could raise hardened hull to 99% armor and all it would do would be to turn AMCs into anti-shield-only guns. You\'d just use your AMCs to knock down someone\'s shields and then switch to missiles, because they\'re equal-opportunity annihilators. A barrage of a few missiles will eat right through whatever\'s in the way and overload anyone\'s core. And that might be interesting for a while, but if missiles don\'t respect armor we\'re going to have to start installing huge whipple shields.



    This was done with 200 d1000s, from behind, from cloak:

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26452959/bc403-200missiles.jpg
     
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    First of all, I hate stats. I hate looking at a ship and thinking numbers. I absolutely dislike that, despite knowing and understanding they have their obvious role to play. Moving on.

    As many have pointed out, the downsides of using armor layers monstruously outweights its benefits. While shields are designed to stop and distribute impacts, armor is made to absorb it.

    Even though that tends towards borderline circular dynamics (Rock beats Scissors, Paper beats Rock, Scissors beat Paper, etc), here\'s what I personally would like to see evolve. First, context:

    • Energy weapons (AMC) are able to sustain high rates of fire and are able to strike accurately at a target point. Moreso than missiles, you\'ll admit. It\'s made to cut and hit with repetition. It has the potential for surgical precision strikes.
    • Missiles are damage dealers. They don\'t rely on their impact to do damage, but on their explosive ordnance. They take chunks out, they\'re meant to punch holes. Big holes.
    • Shields are energy fields dispatched to cover an area and divert impacts and shocks momentum. Makes sense that they\'d interact more vividly with other energy measures.
    • Armor is heavy, thick, and made to take a beating. Rather than divert impacts and damages, it takes them full on and clenches its teeth through.

    Now that\'s how the pieces fit togheter for me. Feel free to see them differently. But with that situation in mind, here\'s how weapon interactions make the most sense to me:

    A blast, in space, doesn\'t produce nearly as much shockwave as it can in space. Spoiler alert, an explosion\'s shockwave is part of its deadliest assets. Therefore, explosions from missiles against the shields, and so no against anything, would lose most of its pressure and punch. It\'d be easier for the shields to disperse the blast force than disperse the impact of a high-velocity projectile. It would make sense for shields to be vulnerable to overload, were they to recieve repeated impacts from everywhere. Reminds you of something? That\'s right, AMCs. Energy hitting energy makes sense. Not sure what the Starmade lore makes of the type of energy applied to the Anti-Matter Canons (is it heat, kinetic, etc), but it makes sense to assume that they could keep hitting shields with a serious beating. And so, AMCs could be considered more effective against shields than missiles.

    Now when it comes to armor, which is currently no more than a heavier chunk of metal right now in Starmade, it acts differently than a shield (DUUUuuuuuuuuh) It\'s made to sustain repeated impacts as long as they\'re not too hard a hit. So unless your AMC\'s are all into damage, or ridiculously powerful, armor\'s there to take it. Obviously, keep hitting the same spots and it should give away, it\'s not invincible either. However now\'S the time for our missiles to shine! The force and damage of an explosion is mostly due to the pressure it applies (as far as I know). If you thought it was that fire ball you see in the movies, well no, that\'s not why explosions are deadly. As such, in the void of space there\'s no air or really much matter to apply pressure to or push. That\'s why an explosion in the middle of space should in theory lose most of its power. But blast that thing against a solid, proud hull, and now the game\'s different. It\'s not the same as an explosion inside atmospheric levels, of course, but since the blast is pitched against a solid thing, it\'s safe to say that it\'ll apply some force to that thing, be it a rock or a titanium alloy plating. That transfered energy bursts will travel through the object it hits, obviously to a certain degree. The same way air gives sound waves an environment to travel, your hull sucessfuly becomes a favorable environment for shockwaves to travel. The damage is more likely to be structural, then, than by scratching layers off. That\'s why it makes sense to pitch missiles against armors.

    Hull. Well your hull is skin. If you\'re only hull, you might as well consider yourself naked to enemy fire. So let\'s leave hull with no defensive merit more than what the game currently gives it.

    Right, so if by any chance you didn\'t get what I was saying, here\'s the kiddie version:

    Missiles are less effective against shields, and deal more damage to hulls and armors. AMCs are on the other hand more effective to take down shields, but will take slightly longer to cut through heavy armors.

    Shields < AMC < Armor < Missiles < Shields. Space rock paper scissors.

    Though why stop there? Why not have lightwehgit armor made to absorb blast damage by breaking down, effectively reducing the missiles blast radius and minimizing damage to subsequent layers? This softer armor would however become vulnerable to the faster fire of AMCs, naturally. Or why not have specialized shields eventually? Dispersers that do not give as much capacity, and have a long reboot time when taken down, but relies on regen rates? Why not have the oposites, with a stronger resistance to damage but a near non-existant regen time. Why not have overall softer shields, but that can be back online and fully charged while under fire, in a second? Why not a shield Impervious to AMCs, but completely uselss against missiles who\'d then end up going right through? Why not have a missile who deal absolutely no damage what so ever, but disables shields for 2 seconds? (Yeah, EMC, nothing new) 2 seconds is a long time. Why not have a missile that disables everything? Well, because that\'d just be aggravating.

    In short, the game is developping, and I think it will eventually benefit from a broader range of weaponry. Blance of power in combat will be more dynamic, because right now, simply have more is better, which makes sense, but say you limit the number of type of shields a core can sustain to two, you decide on High Capacity And High Regen, obviously. Well oops, the enemy brought along that EMC missile. He doesn\'t have much other missiles, but since you mostly relied on shields, his AMCs will cut through your neglected armor. Etc.

    Specialisation will happen naturally, the balance won\'t reside in sheer stats, as it does at the moment, but with what you\'ve decided to outfit your ship with. Sure, that huge capital ship\'s AMCs will still cut through your puny fighter shields, and his will resist your small AMC counter attack.

    Welp, tl;dr:
    I hope for an actual use to armor and see weapon diversification.
     
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    Hull needs to be 150% to 400% stronger. Possibly up damage reduction to 30% for hull and 75% for hardened hull, but that might swing balance too far in the other direction.



    Missles need to stop ignoring armor! This is important! They need to do progressively less damage.

    It\'d be nice if the first block they hit reduced damage for all subsequent blocks hit.

    What I mean is:

    Assume 500 damage missle, 5 spread

    Hardened hull (50% reduction): first block takes (500*.5) damage. Second block takes (250*.5) damage, third block takes (125*.5) damage, fourth block takes (63*.5) damage, fifth block takes (32*.5) damage

    Hull (25% reduction): first block takes (500*.75) damage. second block takes (375*.75), third takes (281*.75), fourth block takes (210*.75) fifth block takes (158*.75)



    That\'d give a real purpose to coating your ship in hardened hull, leaving the interior cheap.

    Failing that, just make missle damage trail off slightly.



    Now, On cannons : I entirely agree, but I think maximum DPS should be achieved at more than one block. say, 5, 10 or 12 blocks would have max DPS, so we don\'t have checkerboard ships.

    Meanwhile, the larger cannons would bring the heavy firepower to break through shields or hull.



    Specifically, I want some flat rate damage reduction on either shields or hull.

    Not 25% of the shot, but 25 damage taken off ( to a minimum of 1)



    This would mean against a small shield (1 damage taken off) small turrets would rape, while larger shields would need larger cannons.



    Example:

    2 shields, one with 5 reduction, one with 250 reduction

    2 cannon arrays. one has 10 cannons doing 500 DPS, while another one has 1 cannon doing 400 DPS

    Shield A, Cannon A : (50-5) * 10 = 450 DPS

    Shield A, Cannon B : (400-5) * 1 = 395 DPS

    Shield B, Cannon A : (50-250) * 10 = 10 DPS (remember, rounds to 1 if below 0)

    Shield B, Cannon B : (400-250) * 1 = 150 DPS



    This would make ship and cannon classes, so small cannons would be known to take on small ships, while large cannons take on large ships. Meanwhile, at a reduced rate, both cannons CAN be used against the wrong ship class. It just won\'t work as well.



    *Example numbers obviously not balanced
     
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    • Armor is heavy, thick, and made to take a beating. Rather than divert impacts and damages, it takes them full on and clenches its teeth through.\"


    It really doesn\'t. Reactive armor was invented decades ago and if \"space missiles\" are any threat you can be sure it will still be in use unless there\'s a better alternative...

    That said, if ships get PD and AMMs, and any kind of ECM, regular explosive warheads will seem pretty silly. If you don\'t get a point-blank on-the-hull impact your missile was basically wasted.
     
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    and i agree with this post, but right now the game seems far from anything this advanced. i would prefer that as for balance schema only deal with the major problems for now and put most of his attention to making the game more stable (though thats really up to schema) and i think one of the major balance problems right now is how bigger is simply better with weapons.

    the \"rock paper scissors\" system works in many other games, hopefully it can work here too.
     
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    i like the idea of hull blocking a total ammount of damage instead of % of damage, theres potential in that. maybe giive hulls stack bonuses like weapons get to have more reason for layering them. maybe even have 2 types of hull, one for total dmg and one for absorbing a % of dmg.

    but staying on the topic of cannons. the detail you went into was a bit confusing but i think i mostly get it. i think a certain number of cannon blocks having the best DPS is a good idea, but max DPS should not be over powered, cannons with weak damage per shot but high damage per second should have trouble damaging armor if even being able to at all. (a machine gun wont kill a tank you know) so if you want to get through armor with an AMC you need a bigger one with less damage per second but more damage per shot.

    edit: this would make it so big guns are good against armor while little ones are good against shields. that would make an \"average zone\" where a certain number of blocks can be average against both armor and shield.
     
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    If armor or shields absorb a specific amount of damage, then lots of smaller cannons, although technically stronger, wouldn\'t be very good against a large shield/hull.



    That would mean that Large cannons would be free to have a slower rate of fire and still have a purpose (breaking shields).



    More Cannons = More DPS, better against ships with low shield damage reduction

    Larger Cannons = More Concentrated Damage, better against ships with high shield damage reduction



    Then we can have different classes of weaponry just judging by their size.

    It would bring back some of the shield strength people were complaining about losing, but it would emphasize design over size.

    A small ship with comparitivly big cannons would be able to take on a giant ship, but not ships of it\'s own size, so it\'s a conscious player choice about his ship\'s role instead of a specific size of ship being OP

    Obviously, larger ships would be better, but even they would have to think, do they want to crack shields faster? or do more damage once the shields are down? Or be a jack of all trades, master of none?
     
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    I\'m not sure if doing this would help. If you give bigger cannons an AOE and slower fire, you would be creating a missile that hits instantly (therefore easy to hit, opposit to actual missiles). And the checkerboard pattern, that currently gives an kind of AOE to cannons, would pottentialy increase the damage output (basically increasing the rate of fire, sice more bullets would be shot per second while affecting the same area), making both the same thing. And if you think about the old shields, the rapid-fire is kind of justified, since the cannons (wich are anti-shield weapons) had the double function of consuming the enemy shields while hitting as fast as possible so to prevent those from regening as much as possible.

    And opening another discussion here, is it so wrong for the big ships to be somewhat OP? I mean, in a game like, for example EVE, where you get the money and BAM, you have the stuff, it is wrong because the only thing it takes is getting the money, what everyone can do. But here it takes more: you have to get the money; then you go through hundreds of shops to find all the materals you need; and after that, what takes a long time by itself, you have to go and build the ship. A bigger ship it everything but easy to make; it takes time, patience, and the skill to do it. It takes time to build the inner sistems, make the reactors, balance massXthrustXenergy. And damage recovery after a battle were the shields were taken down (it doesn\'t take all that, actually) is just obnoxious. So after all this work, isn\'t it somewhat justified for the big ship to be a bit OP?
     
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    to make the game run smooth in whatever condition possible. Once that is solid, you can add new elements and only change their number values to tweak and adjust effects.

    I was saying all that in an \"eventually\" mindset. So you\'re right.
    Before adding any new weaponry/defense types though, what should happen is for armor to actually not be completely bad.

    I hate comparing it to rock paper scissors as I did, but it\'s pretty much that. I\'m not entirely against the bigger is better, it\'s just that I think it\'s a pretty linear dynamic. Size does matter, as for exemple: A giant rock won\'t be wrapped in a tiny sheet of paper, and a pebble won\'t do much hitting a giant pair of blades, so on.
     
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    Big ships are still far more powerfull than small ones.

    The problem was just the invincibility to everything that wasn\'t your size. Invincibility is always a bad choice in game design because it feels unfair. If i get obliterated because im too small and got only 10% of his shields while i was firing on him for 3 minutes without a break my thought is \"if i become 10 times as good as now i could actualy damage him in some way\". If i just can\'t harm him in any way it\'s more like \"lol skill is for noobs, i just build a mega cube of AMCs and Shields\".

    Don\'t think bigger ships aren\'t stronger. A ship with 100x the mass will still annihilate the smaller ship.
     
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    Actually, you are pretty much supposed to get wrecked if you take on a bigger ship. If you can\'t damage the other ship, you have two options: get a bigger ship yourself or bring friends with you. A capital ship is designed to handle the damage from another capital ship or a group of bombers (ships designed to deal as much damage as possible at the price of mobility and being bigger than a fighter), so a small ship isn\'t supposed to even scratch it. It\'s like a fly taking on an armored giant.
     
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    I can always make a ship in the safety of single player, with unlimited resources, then buy it on a server.

    No gathering. No time to build.

    Just destruction :D
     
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    Well, then you take out resource gathering (never considered outside interference), but building, what is 80% of the work, is still there. As for buying it on the server, yes, you\'re somewhat right, even tough you had the work of building it anyway. Maybe add an increase in the price based on the number of blocks on the ship and make credits harder to obtain. The game needs an monetary rebalancing anyway. But even with the way it is now, several billions of credits aren\'t easy to get.
     
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    Not gonna talk about game stuff. But I agree on the Anti-matter weapons. Anti-matter when in contact with norma matter gives a 100% output of energy. A hand full of anti-matter would cause an explosion more powerful then any bomb we\'ve ever made. The matter to energy output of a nuclear weapon is only about 0.03%. Prehaps some of the missles should be renamed to anti-matter... Or anti-matter power, or engines. Prehaps have anti-matter cannons as a higher teir of weapon. But.. yeah whatever^^
     
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    The problem, which was solved, was invulnerability followed by a rapid death. Now ships take damage, and they do it over a greater period of time.



    Big ships still devastate small ships, in no uncertain terms.



    The new problem, In my opinion, is that there\'s no real diversity between weapons. There\'s no way to tailor your ship to either fight small or large ships, and I hope the ideas in this thread can address that.



    Increasing prices doesn\'t really change the game, it\'s not a good design solution, because it doesn\'t make the game more fun.
     
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    the big thing with the ship pricing is the game is in alpha and poorly optimized so the scale we can work with is a lot smaller. for all we know schema\'s intended scale may make current capitol ships look like corvettes.