Calibri's graph

[Vengeance42]

Thanks for the graph, I cannot post under it but I have a question.

I do not understand the last graph/chart. Is this for the defensive purposes of the weapon? What does "1/10th power used per block per second" mean? Can you clarify it at all?

Thanks

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I think the graph is about defensive uses of the effect modules.
Then the 1/10th would make sense, as normally effects need 1 block in 10 mass to function with 100% bonus.
Orange is the percentage of the ship required to achieve the maximum bonus.
Blue shows the maximum efficiency, aka maximum bonus.

Blue and orange are in %.

 

[kupu]

Spoiler: For those wondering...

 

[Yetimania]

Wait, you peak out at 10% of your ship being thrusters? I thought you could just add more thrust ad infinitum.

 

[Keptick]

Wait, you peak out at 10% of your ship being thrusters? I thought you could just add more thrust ad infinitum.

Well, there's a point where maintaining a higher thrust/weight ratio is simply impossible due to the diminutive nature of power generation. However, 10% seems quite low...

Edit: It says that it's just for comparison purposes at the bottom of the chart :P

 

[Yetimania]

Well, there's a point where maintaining a higher thrust/weight ratio is simply impossible due to the diminutive nature of power generation. However, 10% seems quite low...

Right, of course. I meant it more like... every thruster adds X thrust and Y mass, where X, I believe, diminishes with the number of thrusters. By design, there's diminishing returns, which is why small ships zip about and big ships lumber.
Nevertheless, I didn't realize there was a special, artificial cap or break or something at 10%.

 

[Keptick]

Right, of course. I meant it more like... every thruster adds X thrust and Y mass, where X, I believe, diminishes with the number of thrusters. By design, there's diminishing returns, which is why small ships zip about and big ships lumber.
Nevertheless, I didn't realize there was a special, artificial cap or break or something at 10%.

There actually isn't, I just noticed that there's a little note at the end of the charts saying that thrust is just there for comparison purpose and that it is't actually bound by the ratio things like systems.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Spoiler: For those wondering...

@Calbiri

Okay so according to this chart 100% pierce weapons are supposed to do 0 shield damage. I wasn't sure if that was a bug or not.

Also shouldn't a sniper also have a secondary bonus of damage. All other slaves balance DPS by either adjusting ROF for damage or adding projectiles. But a sniper cannon will deal the same damage as a stock cannon half its size there fore all sniper weapons have 1/2 as much DPS as every other gun type.

 

[Keptick]

@Calbiri

Okay so according to this chart 100% pierce weapons are supposed to do 0 shield damage. I wasn't sure if that was a bug or not.

Also shouldn't a sniper also have a secondary bonus of damage. All other slaves balance DPS by either adjusting ROF for damage or adding projectiles. But a sniper cannon will deal the same damage as a stock cannon half its size there fore all sniper weapons have 1/2 as much DPS as every other gun type.

If that was the case then using beam as a slave would have absolutely no downside. All slave weapons trade something for a benefit (for example, rapid fire trades damage per shot with rate of fire). Having longer range must be traded with something else, which is damage.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

If that was the case then using beam as a slave would have absolutely no downside. All slave weapons trade something for a benefit (for example, rapid fire trades damage per shot with rate of fire). Having longer range must be traded with something else, which is damage.

Yes you trade ROF for damage but the trade is equal, the DPS of the weapon stays the same. With Sniper you get a longer range faster projectile for half the DPS, is that actually an equal trade? I'm not saying it should also get an equal damage bonus but it should get something. Perhaps an even greater increase in range? It might also be less of an issue when AI can actually use the range of weapons. My sniper turrets are kind of wasted right now.[DOUBLEPOST=1413666417,1413665300][/DOUBLEPOST]On another note:

Am I the only one who finds the entry barrier of defense systems to be way to high. 10% of a ship is a lot of space and I just don't see the benefit of spending power as well as up to 10% of a ships mass in order to get an effect. That 10% is a lot of shields, power, and thrusters your ship now doesn't have. It may be viable for doom cubes but as I build interiors I don't see myself every having the room to ever consider using defense effects. For a while the number of modules required was bugged and you could use the different effects as long as you had the power for them (still is in the current release). There should be much less emphasis on how much of your ship is filled with massive blocks of effect modules and balanced more by power requirements.

The same goes for jump drives. The difference between a single jump module and an "efficient" system is like 20 seconds, but yet the amount of space you need is staggering. I don't really see any reason to ever build this mythical efficient jump drive. Its probably better to wait the extra 20 seconds than have to start the charge over because your massive drive lost a single block.

Edit: Another problem is mass also takes turrets and docked ships into account but yet these docked ships do not benefit from the effects.

 

[Krazykat]

@Sven_The_Slayer Having such restrictions forces ships to become specialized, it creates the need to design multiple vessels for different scenarios instead of just having "Jack of all trades" boats everywhere

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

@Sven_The_Slayer Having such restrictions forces ships to become specialized, it creates the need to design multiple vessels for different scenarios instead of just having "Jack of all trades" boats everywhere

And you can easily have the same thing by adding a hard cap to the number of defenses you can have on a single ship. Or if the power requirements are done right you can have a jack of all trades but you would basically have to be a flying generator. Making it nearly impossible for the average player to even use a single defensive system is a bad way to balance it.

 

[Krazykat]

I see your point,I kinda like the idea of hard cap on # of defenses.

 

[karkinosz]

I'd like to entertain the possibility of the range increasing slave also increasing projectile speed (in case of cannons) since even with the range increase the effective range of the weapon is still the same. I only brought this up because as said above the sniper slave doesn't receive a dps boost but the increase in range isn't all that useful if it can't hit.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

An other downside of having such a high percentage is that the mass of the modules is counted, meaning this isn't simply 10%, but more like 11% of a ship has to be modules because for every ten you add you have to tack on an extra to make up for the extra mass.

Ultimately I think basing everything on mass is the wrong approach.

• Ion should determine how many modules you need based on how many shields modules you have.
  
• EMP based on how many power reactors you have.
• Punch/ Peirce how much armor your ship has
• All momentum effects based on thrusters
• Anti Gravity based on mass

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I'd like to entertain the possibility of the range increasing slave also increasing projectile speed

With Sniper you get a longer range + faster projectile

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

So if anybody is wondering. In the current release of the game the system seems to use the percentage numbers provided in the graph but against the mass of a ship and not it's blocks. The means a 4000 mass ship would need 40 modules over 400. The latest dev build has this set differently. I'm wondering where the problem is, which one is correct? Is this all supposed to be 10% mass or 10% blocks? @Calbiri could you please clear up which is your intention for this system %mass of ship or %blocks of ship?

 

[SilentRider_14]

http://bugs.star-made.org/issues/1053

Thrust is related to mass in the same way as momentum effects are
Emp is a simplification as all systems would be susceptible power thrust computers weapons and onward