Building Civilian Structures

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    I was watching the videos from the Dual Universe channel on youtube. It's another voxel space sim game for those of you who don't know. They said that one of the things they want is to incentivize city building. I was wondering if there could be a way to incentivize building cities or civilian structures to Starmade? It would be cool to visit a faction's territory and visit cities/towns/bases/wonders that they have built. I'm not sure if this would fit into Starmade's design though. A couple of problems I can think of out of the gate are 1) lag on planets 2) lack of benefit to the player/faction. I'm thinking this might be fun to talk about as all the structures in this game are military based, and more passive structures have little to no purpose.
     
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    I recall seeing a couple suggestions regarding populations, whether simulated or actually present in locations, and how they should affect your faction. It's been brought up before, maybe not often. So you'd have a civilian population that pays taxes, produces and consumes resources, and your faction benefits from the excess they produce, if any, and recruiting/accepting volunteers from that population to operate your stations and vessels. You have to protect this population, obviously. Keep them happy. Provide territory, stability and government that permits economic growth and expansion. Then draw resources from them to provide warships for your navy.

    At the moment, it can still be fun to design the resource collection, transportation, and processing components of your infrastructure. I've actually gone and made some civilian transportation vessels, built apartments into a space station, etc. You just have to fill all those roles yourself, because there are no NPCs to help you.
     
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    jayman38

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    I'm trying to build civilian buildings in one of my current projects that can be docked in place, along with templates to go along with making multiple variations of structures, with the ultimate goal of allowing players to create skyscraper-laden cities rapidly, but it's slow-going. That is an ongoing effort I made after putting up a quick civilian template contest. There was already one release in CC with civilian buildings, and at least two, possibly three template sets have become available for creating tunnels, passageways, and small rooms.

    Without the weapons that are so fun, it's just kind of a dry ambition. And without thrusters or jump drives, civilian buildings are that much drier.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    MMM, well back when advanced shops and NPC were first released, I and a few others played with NPC as vanity pets on stations.
    Problems that needed adressing:
    -NPC (location markers, Quest givers, bankers, with appropriate scripting)
    • NPC "falling off" your ship on transit (and not telling you WHERE they fell off as soon as they unloaded) (load NPC AFTER chunks around it please? location even while entity unloaded please?)
    • base protection not applying to NPC (pirate attacks killed them easily)(load NPC AFTER chunks around it please?)
    • the occasional "chunk not loaded" weapon-snipe would kill NPC locked deep within a structure.(load NPC AFTER chunks around it please?)
    • sometimes randomly dropped to a planet's core.(load NPC AFTER chunks around it please?)
    • can't control/force gravity on stations/ships (follow the leader-player and persist between loads please?)
    • scripting wasn't very well documented, lack of example scripts for "roles" you'd expect, functions somewhat obscure, variables difficult to persist and control.(give at least 3 archetypes please? full scrip command list please?)
    -Fauna (made cool pets "on display")
    • Spiders couldn't pass though intangible blocks, fire though them, etc...
    • They COULD escape full tangible enclosure if chunk didn't load before their pathing loaded(load NPC AFTER chunks around it please?)
    • same NPC "lies and heresy" kills to the vanity pet (load NPC AFTER chunks around it please?)
    I'd really like to see those problems addressed, also I'd like to see:
    • breeding (X numer can spawn +1 random arctype NPC.)
    • more control (pathing settings, script, by owner)
    • taming (spider-bro, spider-bro)
     
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    if they ever want to add ship crews, many of the above problems will need to be addressed. NPCs falling out of ships will not be fun for the crews...
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    I was watching the videos from the Dual Universe channel on youtube. It's another voxel space sim game for those of you who don't know. They said that one of the things they want is to incentivize city building. I was wondering if there could be a way to incentivize building cities or civilian structures to Starmade? It would be cool to visit a faction's territory and visit cities/towns/bases/wonders that they have built. I'm not sure if this would fit into Starmade's design though. A couple of problems I can think of out of the gate are 1) lag on planets 2) lack of benefit to the player/faction. I'm thinking this might be fun to talk about as all the structures in this game are military based, and more passive structures have little to no purpose.
    I'm with you 100%

    In the game's current state, the only incentives to build a city are bragging rights and a steady creative outlet. Since I enjoy both, cities are what I prefer to build in this game; even more so than ships. It doesn't matter where I build them so long as they are a large immersive environment capable of accommodating many players at once.

    I try to add all the features any player could want or need (hospitals, shop, industry, hotels, parks, recreation centers, etc.) but so far, my colonies have been little more than trade hubs and tourist attractions for players. It would be nice to have NPCs walking around on it with some kind of passive benefit or resource generation. Or even just to have them walking around; shopping or something. As fun as they are to build, a city with no citizens is just silly.
     

    Lukwan

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    Epic scenery and cities are something that Minecraft has in spades...and are virtually non-existent in SM. I pine for the days of larger planets with burgeoning cities or caverns to explore. Starmade has a great building system but lacks in visuals department. Here is issue in a nut-shell:

    -Scale of combat. The fights generally happen at such ranges that you never get to 'see' the ships you are fighting. Unless we have some kind of HUD representation of our enemy we will never really see how cool their ship looks as we blow holes in it (or get the joy of seeing the holes blowed-up). The only ship you ever see is the one you're building.

    -Scale of planets. 'Round' planets may have sounded like a good idea but are they really an improvement? A larger disc-planet that was just one entity (with two-sides) would be less laggy and more immersive, when it counts; while you on the planet itself. Really, who cares what it looks like when in space? On approach the planet is just a bracket, then you are close enough to mine it (poof, it's now gone) or you pass it by like a large asteroid. It is when you are on the planet that the planet matters! Debate this here: Planets: Discs or Balls?

    -Single-entity lighting. It is hard to make ships beautiful when the lighting system is so limited. Unless lighting can go cross-entity the things we build will never quite look right. So many design elements are unavailable because of this deficiency. It is also making seeing the details on ships harder.
     
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    On the immersion side of things, I don't think anybody disagrees that it would make things more immersive. I also don't think anybody would disagree that there are mechanical problems that need to be solved, but what is most important is the role these structures play in the game. Dr. Whammy gets it. Right now the only purpose is bragging rights and a creative outlet. EricBlank has a good discussion of this topic, asking what role do these structures play?

    I recall seeing a couple suggestions regarding populations, whether simulated or actually present in locations, and how they should affect your faction. It's been brought up before, maybe not often. So you'd have a civilian population that pays taxes, produces and consumes resources, and your faction benefits from the excess they produce, if any, and recruiting/accepting volunteers from that population to operate your stations and vessels. You have to protect this population, obviously. Keep them happy. Provide territory, stability and government that permits economic growth and expansion. Then draw resources from them to provide warships for your navy.

    At the moment, it can still be fun to design the resource collection, transportation, and processing components of your infrastructure. I've actually gone and made some civilian transportation vessels, built apartments into a space station, etc. You just have to fill all those roles yourself, because there are no NPCs to help you.
    I like the idea of taxes and producing resources. That would incentivize building large and immersive cities. But what about also adding a sort of culture or influence production? Instead of claiming sectors via faction block a city would be needed to claim a sector. The faction with the most influence or culture would lay claim to its sector. Players would then compete to build larger more immersive cities, or go to war to destroy cities and claim sectors. But how would a city be ranked? How would individual buildings function?
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    On the immersion side of things, I don't think anybody disagrees that it would make things more immersive. I also don't think anybody would disagree that there are mechanical problems that need to be solved, but what is most important is the role these structures play in the game. Dr. Whammy gets it. Right now the only purpose is bragging rights and a creative outlet. EricBlank has a good discussion of this topic, asking what role do these structures play?


    I like the idea of taxes and producing resources. That would incentivize building large and immersive cities. But what about also adding a sort of culture or influence production? Instead of claiming sectors via faction block a city would be needed to claim a sector. The faction with the most influence or culture would lay claim to its sector. Players would then compete to build larger more immersive cities, or go to war to destroy cities and claim sectors. But how would a city be ranked? How would individual buildings function?
    Looks like someone's been playing Sins of a Solar empire... :^D

    Regarding the function of cities; Some of my more decorative structures are filled with shields, factory enhancers or power capacitors to simulate 'production' and 'infrastructure'. The larger the city, the more buildings that generate these bonuses. I imagine that similar functions can be added to StarMade if implemented properly. Maybe the size or mass of a city or station could determine its 'population', which in turn, could add bonuses to a station, planet plate, sector or system; such as the following...


    - attracts the trade guild (or other NPC factions) to buy from your shop
    - passively generates credits (taxes)
    - grants a factory bonus to the city/station
    - grants a mining bonus to the system
     
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    Lukwan

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    The faction with the most influence or culture would lay claim to its sector. Players would then compete to build larger more immersive cities, or go to war to destroy cities and claim sectors. But how would a city be ranked? How would individual buildings function?
    A culture-win...how Civilized. ;)

    A city should win it's rank by impressing the admin of a MP game. (No idea about SP) The admin deserve the voting privilege automatically. Voting rights could be decided as part of the server set-up.

    Maybe use a minimum sized building (with windows & doors) as one of the metrics for automatically rating cities.
     
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    Looks like someone's been playing Sins of a Solar empire... :^D

    Rregarding the function of cities; Some of my more decorative structures are filled with shields, factory enhancers or power capacitors to simulate 'production' and 'infrastructure'. The larger the city, the more buildings that generate these bonuses. I imagine that similar functions can be added to StarMade if implemented properly. Maybe the size or mass of a city or station could determine its 'population', which in turn, could add bonuses to a station, planet plate, sector or system; such as the following...


    - attracts the trade guild (or other NPC factions) to buy from your shop
    - passively generates credits (taxes)
    - grants a factory bonus to the city/station
    - grants a mining bonus to the system

    I get the factory enhancers/power capacitors/ shields blocks concept. But the problem with that is it is way more effective to plob a brick of these down instead of building structures.

    Generating taxes would work well.
    Factory bonus and mining bonus already exist. But i could see these being influential by increasing manufacturing efficiency (2 blocks made per recipe instead of one) and adding a mining bonus to the system for the controlling faction.
     
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    To determine what a city's worth, take a "room identifier" program and run it through the city. Everything fully enclosed - 6 sides of artificially placed blocks or similar setup - with a door counts as a "room". Massive skyscrapers can have many, many rooms. The more rooms and the more enclosed space (volume, in blocks, of space inside rooms), the more "population" you can have. This translates only to a higher capacity - not a definite limit or population. You can indeed go over the capacity, through bad handling - it's called overcrowding and it makes people unhappy and rebellious, so they can be overcrowded, unhappy and rebellious in control of themselves.

    Specialty rooms do not add to population, but they do add to other factors. For instance, recruitment offices grant you more NPCs to use (NPCs being abstracted to a number of crewers, allowing you to build only so many warships and stations as can be crewed. They, like all other NPC assets, are only loaded into vessels, and attached to specific blocks when loading in/out so as to avoid falling off ships etc., when the player can render them) in conquering the galaxy/making shiploads of money. Shops grant additional tax revenue from the population (more NPCs, more money, provided they are employed, which can be determined through capacity vs. actual population); factories provide mining bonuses and/or manufacturing bonuses. Defense posts provide planetary shielding or bonuses to combat systems inside the system, provided the faction owns both the system and the planet (kicker there, eh? You gotta own it to use it.). Spaceports allow you to get NPCs from the planet to use, plus create a trading location to receive materials/credits from other factions trading there (NPC factions, probably, or NPC operated ships).

    Etc., etc.
     
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    There was a thread not long ago with station structure idea, people do build all kinds of fluff :)

    It was suggested that admins should police who build good stuff, that is a bad idea as they have better things to do and it will lead to favoritism and taste judging.
     
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    Granted, admin policing would be a bad idea, if implemented badly. Overbearing admins causing noobs to mass-migrate because "You not git gud!" or "You're not good enough to be on the server". Likewise no active admin supervision at all (as in admins not present at all on the server, under normal operating conditions), renders ANY admin-based systems ineffective, because there is no-one to make those decisions. Most admins I know belong to the second group I outlined, and don't actually hang out on servers on a regular basis (due to job, school, relationship, family etc.) and only come in to sort out problems, if contacted directly via out-of server communications.

    If a server had good, level-headed admins, it could work well. As we don't know what kind of admins a server has, the effectiveness of a system based on admin supervision will vary greatly.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Yeah, I'm going to have to say no on the admin voting thing.

    I fail to see why personal preference should dictate any bonuses given, rather than an actual game mechanic. That just sounds like a trouble waiting to happen.

    How about this?

    - All mass added to a planet plate (excluding terrain blocks) has the ability to add to the city's size. More mass = bigger city.
    - Use the upcoming 'personal spaces' mechanic for crews to determine how population grows. Population size determines the bonus.
    - Having mass without enough personal space makes the city unsuitable environment for NPCs so they leave the city; reducing any bonuses.
    - Physical NPCs are a 'representation' of population but the bonus is based on the population stat; not the number of visible NPCs.
    - Population generates credits based on size (tax revenue) making large cities more profitable.
    - Population will add a slight efficiency boost to your factories. The bonus is a small percentage of your population stat.
    - If the city is on a planet, population causes a slight passive resource generation; based on the types of resources found on the planet plate.
    - Shields added to city on a planet plate protect the whole planet; helping to prevent "Alderaan" type scenarios.

     
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    Lukwan

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    It was suggested that admins should police who build good stuff, that is a bad idea as they have better things to do and it will lead to favoritism and taste judging.
    I fail to see why personal preference should dictate any bonuses given, rather than an actual game mechanic. That just sounds like a trouble waiting to happen.
    It is fair to say that his should not be only method of rating buildings & cities but I think it has a place in the options. True not all admin will want more 'duties' to perform but some would really run with idea.

    Absentee admin: Building judging would not have to be a constant chore, more like a semi-regular status check. EG: once a month/two weeks people who want their stuff considered would ask the admin to visit and see their progress. At any given time one city holds the honor (like employee of the week) and thats about it.

    Active Style-manager admin: This idea shines in the particular...not the general. For some admins there will be a desire to constrain building styles to RP atmosphere (like Star Trek or Star Wars) This would give them an active role in shaping the 'look' of the universe to match the theme of the server. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach because it should be assumed that the players who chose to make this server their home also want to maintain the theme. Players and admin will happily cooperate when their goals are aligned.

    Players will have a wide variety of servers to choose from so we don't need a one-size-fits-all system, but rather tools for a 'do-your-own-thing' system.
     
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    I would like to see trader facilities on faction planets. With very large screens and ticker tape displays with the trade prices of various commodities as well as lots of NPCs conducting trades for their factions. I'd also love to have the abiltiy to either set up my own trading kiosk with NPCs wanting to buy or sell to me (or even other players on multiplayer servers). And maybe the occasional auction for ships AND stations which could be won with either credits or resources.

    I guess I'm one of those cutthroat "carebears", where I like to mine/buy/trade my opponents to death... :)
     
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    To determine what a city's worth, take a "room identifier" program and run it through the city. Everything fully enclosed - 6 sides of artificially placed blocks or similar setup - with a door counts as a "room". Massive skyscrapers can have many, many rooms. The more rooms and the more enclosed space (volume, in blocks, of space inside rooms), the more "population" you can have. This translates only to a higher capacity - not a definite limit or population. You can indeed go over the capacity, through bad handling - it's called overcrowding and it makes people unhappy and rebellious, so they can be overcrowded, unhappy and rebellious in control of themselves.

    Specialty rooms do not add to population, but they do add to other factors. For instance, recruitment offices grant you more NPCs to use (NPCs being abstracted to a number of crewers, allowing you to build only so many warships and stations as can be crewed. They, like all other NPC assets, are only loaded into vessels, and attached to specific blocks when loading in/out so as to avoid falling off ships etc., when the player can render them) in conquering the galaxy/making shiploads of money. Shops grant additional tax revenue from the population (more NPCs, more money, provided they are employed, which can be determined through capacity vs. actual population); factories provide mining bonuses and/or manufacturing bonuses. Defense posts provide planetary shielding or bonuses to combat systems inside the system, provided the faction owns both the system and the planet (kicker there, eh? You gotta own it to use it.). Spaceports allow you to get NPCs from the planet to use, plus create a trading location to receive materials/credits from other factions trading there (NPC factions, probably, or NPC operated ships).

    Etc., etc.
    This is an interesting idea. I don't know how hard it would be to make a "room identifier" but this might work. There would have to be a balance between number of rooms and the size of rooms. For some aspects maybe more small rooms would be better and others large rooms would be better. The only problem I see is putting down a giant block and dividing it into empty spaces like a sponge. This would lead to very uninteresting looking buildings. I think this could be expanded upon.
    [doublepost=1480268793,1480268331][/doublepost]
    Yeah, I'm going to have to say no on the admin voting thing.

    I fail to see why personal preference should dictate any bonuses given, rather than an actual game mechanic. That just sounds like a trouble waiting to happen.

    How about this?

    - All mass added to a planet plate (excluding terrain blocks) has the ability to add to the city's size. More mass = bigger city.
    - Use the upcoming 'personal spaces' mechanic for crews to determine how population grows. Population size determines the bonus.
    - Having mass without enough personal space makes the city unsuitable environment for NPCs so they leave the city; reducing any bonuses.
    - Physical NPCs are a 'representation' of population but the bonus is based on the population stat; not the number of visible NPCs.
    - Population generates credits based on size (tax revenue) making large cities more profitable.
    - Population will add a slight efficiency boost to your factories. The bonus is a small percentage of your population stat.
    - If the city is on a planet, population causes a slight passive resource generation; based on the types of resources found on the planet plate.
    - Shields added to city on a planet plate protect the whole planet; helping to prevent "Alderaan" type scenarios.
    I like this idea too. And maybe I'd add that weapon structures reduce bonuses as well. While people generally like to be protected nobody wants to live in a fort. I think this would be a good incentive to leave fleets to protect cities and have a balance between military installations on the planet and in orbit.

    I also like this because the population size could be used to determine sector ownership. The largest cities in a sector would dictate faction ownership. This would generate conflict between factions.
     
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    Admin's personal preference isnt a good decision making measure for various factions' cities, to tell them what their population can be and what they get from it. Only humans can judge how beautiful and livable they consider a space to be for themselves, but admin favoritism becomes a serious issue sometimes, and humans also arent very consistent about rating things on the same basis over and over again; we tend to change opinions over time. And we are talking about npc's living in these places, not people, and what factors these npcs look for in their spaces. That rooms idea sounds cool, but I bet that would eat up a lot of CPU when trying to determine what rooms are.

    Maybe players can define rooms. The old docking block code is still floating around, those old ships still load and display docking areas at least. Maybe we can use those blocks to define rooms. Put blocks down, one at an origin corner, select that one and place three more, one to define each of the dimensions, it forms a rectangular prism based on that space between those blocks. The blocks that would be contained must have an outer wall composed of hull/armor/glass/something solid, even as slabs, and one wall must have a door at least 1m wide and 2m high, along the same lines as the defining markers. The rest of the space must be empty of hull/armor components at the least, and cant share space with other rooms. Then the volume of the space is calculated, and the area of floor space is calculated. Then you can place non-voxel blocks, like the pipes and computer console decorations, for furnishings in those rooms (We need chairs now guys!). Open that origin block and in there define what this space is supposed to be, and based on its volume, floor space, and the furnishings present in it the game calculates how well that space suits that need. Living areas dont have to be huge, but commercial warehouses, community centers and factories probably need more space. A population basically needs space to live, places to enjoy themselves, and a means to provide a living wage to upkeep this space. So some algorithm can determine how well your city fits those needs.

    And then players can make it as beautiful or hideous as they desire, and other players can decide if they enjoy doing business there or somewhere else. The mass and defensive stats of the entity of course define how well it will fare when someone starts shooting at it.
     
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