Buff Thrusters!

[Ithirahad]

The thruster menu update is excellent, but whether with small ships, big ships, or anything in between, it feels like we just don't have enough to work with, even if we use relatively minimal armor and dramatically underpowered shield systems. The diminishing returns scale too quickly, and the base thrust per thruster block could be increased around 15% without thrusters becoming even remotely overpowered.

The current system doesn't comfortably allow for the "fast, maneuverable, lightly-armoured attack ship" archetype that's quite popular in Sci-Fi television, movies, and many games, forcing us to tank up our ships as much as humanly possible and generally disregard our pitiful thrust-to-mass ratios.

Who you gonna call? #BuffThrusters!

 

[Napther]

I think a mix of base amount of thrusters, and adjusting the curve. At the moment we are punished in thrust-mass if we ever want to build.
We get either "Ship moves fast, but has bad shields and/or weapons" or, "Ship has mediocre speed, but actually HAS room for defence and offence capabilities"

I can understand anything above 200k mass manouvering like garbage, but a 30-50k ship shouldnt be hurt too bad by this, as this is average range for most people's Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battle Cruisers. The more thrust we add, the heavier and heavier the ship becomes and is restrictive for people who make fully functioning RP vessels because their shells when built are usually very limited on space for extra stuff, even with a cut down interior.

 

[spaceEngineer]

Huge ships should move like garbage I can see that, I can see that but smaller ships should get more power. So possibly a higher initial thruster power and a slightly steeper diminishing return to even it out at the higher end.

 

[Zekester81]

I would not be against this. I am in the process of building what you would call a titan. It's a carrier, and to be able to actually carry a variety of other ships it has to be big. Thrust and power are two gigantic issues. I had enough thrusters in it to fair acceleration but the power consumption for the ship with advanced armor was unreal, to the order of 16mil+/sec just for thrusters. I stripped half of them out and my power consumption still warranted 6 docked reactors(1mil+/sec) on top of @6mil/sec main power to feed thrusters with enough power and the ship to be just barely combat functional at the same time. And forget charging a jump drive while applying thrust. I have yet to replace the DRs with AuxPwr as I just got net back on my desktop. I am also halfway through the process of exchanging the AdvArmor for StdArmor, and the thrust ratio has barely changed. The power needed to move a large vessel with any semblance of acceleration, we're talking in a straight line here without any maneuvering, is nearly unobtainable.

I've built a smaller ship 400-500m that has exceptional speed for it's size and is still combat capable without the need for docked reactors/aux power. Increase the size by 30% and a quarter of that level of acceleration becomes unachievable, given that about half the ship is just hangar bays. Even a 15% increase across the board for thrust wouldn't make it quick in any kind of way, but it would sure help, not to mention making smaller ships that much quicker. Lighter mass would gain even more of an advantage in needing less thrusters allowing for more systems or armor.

 

[Malacodor]

I'm also for an across the board buff, big ships would still be sluggish as a granny with a rollator. I'm not sure whether a 15% increase would be that noticeable. I'd rather start with +50%, and if that's too much go down by 25%, and so on.

 

[Ithirahad]

I'm also for an across the board buff, big ships would still be sluggish as a granny with a rollator. I'm not sure whether a 15% increase would be that noticeable. I'd rather start with +50%, and if that's too much go down by 25%, and so on.

50% will be way too much. I think the sweet spot will be around 15-20%. If that's not enough, you can continue buffing, but I doubt it'll be necessary.

 

[Malacodor]

50% will be way too much. I think the sweet spot will be around 15-20%. If that's not enough, you can continue buffing, but I doubt it'll be necessary.

Sid Meier disagrees, he would even increase thrust by 100%.

 

[Ithirahad]

Sid Meier disagrees, he would even increase thrust by 100%.

That rule doesn't apply to everything... in a game like this, sometimes changes have to be by small amounts. Especially when what's needed is for the thrusters to just feel a bit more worth it, not to have titans zooming around like frigates or frigates doing aerobatics like fighters... Or, for that matter, bulky fighters flipping and zooming around like a thruster stick.

 

[sayerulz]

No, see, all you need to do is paint your ships red!

But seriously, big ships don't need to be fast, but they DO need to be mobile.

 

[Malacodor]

That rule doesn't apply to everything... in a game like this, sometimes changes have to be by small amounts. Especially when what's needed is for the thrusters to just feel a bit more worth it, not to have titans zooming around like frigates or frigates doing aerobatics like fighters... Or, for that matter, bulky fighters flipping and zooming around like a thruster stick.

+50% doesn't have to be in the update, I'd just put it in the dev version to test how it works out and then adjust it further.

 

[therimmer96]

Isn't there a balance suggestions thread for this?

 

[Calhoun]

No, see, all you need to do is paint your ships red!

But seriously, big ships don't need to be fast, but they DO need to be mobile.

I agree with the red bit.

 

[Deserea]

So ill go ahead and agree with this

The heavy cruiser im making(edit: currently sitting at 92k mass for a 90% completed frame and some systems in place) with 50k thrust, drains so much power that I really cant have any weapons unless I want to use the aux power system, which I will be using, its just not in place yet. Still though, even then the power drain seems ludicrous. I don't know how im going to manage to even move the blasted thing when I have it finished, itll be nearly double the mass, and I cant double the thrust anymore to compensate.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Eh, I'd say just cut thruster weight by 90%. The biggest problem I find with mobility and large ships isn't the diminishing thrust-per-block, it's the diminishing thrust-per-mass. that 12million e/sec example earlier in this thread sparked a "I know those feels" moment for me. I think you were actually slightly over the "worse than nothing" point there, and by that i mean; weight of thruster +weight of energy to use thruster = negative gain for thrust : mass.

(ed.)I WILL point out that push/pull passive works wonders for your mobility once you hit the battle-cruiser level. It's sad that it doesn't help with maneuverability, but at least it lets you get up to cruising speed.

 

[Spoolooni]

I do sincerely agree with this, either decrease the weight values of all assets except cargo or buff engines to be around 25% more thrust than the original. It's immediately a turn off for me to know that after a certain point, your ships become unplayable.

 

[Groovrider]

So ill go ahead and agree with this

The heavy cruiser im making(edit: currently sitting at 92k mass for a 90% completed frame and some systems in place) with 50k thrust, drains so much power that I really cant have any weapons unless I want to use the aux power system, which I will be using, its just not in place yet. Still though, even then the power drain seems ludicrous. I don't know how im going to manage to even move the blasted thing when I have it finished, itll be nearly double the mass, and I cant double the thrust anymore to compensate.

I have a mining ship around that size that I'm just finishing off. I feel your pain. Before the last update it had 4 docked reactors and 6.8 million e/sec hardwired in. I could move without the reactors but anything else i.e. turrets, jamming, defense... Drained it totally. I bumped the thrust up to 75k after putting in the aux block but practically half the ship is engine now.

 

[Ithirahad]

Isn't there a balance suggestions thread for this?

Yes, I suppose there is. When's the last time you saw balance suggestions from there get put into a patch?

 

[Jojomo]

Whatever the thrusters are now or become later, there should always be that feeling at the end of needing to sacrifice one (or more) aspect of performance for another.
Not only is it realistic, but it's what makes design a challenge, and interesting, and fun, and it helps make each ship more unique (choosing what sacrifices to make is another decision to make that can differentiate your ship from someone else's).

 

[Malacodor]

Whatever the thrusters are now or become later, there should always be that feeling at the end of needing to sacrifice one (or more) aspect of performance for another.
Not only is it realistic, but it's what makes design a challenge, and interesting, and fun, and it helps make each ship more unique (choosing what sacrifices to make is another decision to make that can differentiate your ship from someone else's).

That's right, but i think that we currently have to sacrifice more for thrust than for other things. Building ships with a thrust/mass ratio of 2.5 shouldn't be too easy, but not too hard either.

 

[Mariux]

I agrree-ed.