bubble shields - the re-take

[NeonSturm]

unless we are talking about rotating a sphere with it's center at 0 0 0 of the ship, then it is just squares

Spoiler: true. Example with numbers//variables

Ship, position x y z, rotation ha va, scale w h l --- h=horizontal, v=vertical, a=angle, width, height, length
Projectile, position absolute, rotation absolute, scale absolute
-> translate by -x, -y, -z
Ship position 0 0 0, rotation ha va, scale w h l
Projectile, position relative(to ship), rotation absolute, scale absolute
-> rotate by -ha -va
Ship position 0 0 0, rotation 0 0, scale w h l
Projectile position relative, rotation relative, scale absolute
-> scale by 1/w 1/h 1/l
Ship is a 1 1 1 sphere around 0 0 0
Projectile position is relative to ship and scaled proportional to the new ship size for calculations
Projectile rotation is relative to the ship (required for scale process)
Projectile scale doesn't matter for impact point check and collision check against the sphere.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Ship, position x y z, rotation ha va, scale w h l --- h=horizontal, v=vertical, a=angle, width, height, length
Projectile, position absolute, rotation absolute, scale absolute
-> translate by -x, -y, -z
Ship position 0 0 0, rotation ha va, scale w h l
Projectile, position relative(to ship), rotation absolute, scale absolute
-> rotate by -ha -va
Ship position 0 0 0, rotation 0 0, scale w h l
Projectile position relative, rotation relative, scale absolute
-> scale by 1/w 1/h 1/l
Ship is a 1 1 1 sphere around 0 0 0
Projectile position is relative to ship and scaled proportional to the new ship size for calculations
Projectile rotation is relative to the ship (required for scale process)
Projectile scale doesn't matter for impact point check and collision check against the sphere.

in which case sines are involved. You perform the rotation before scaling the shape into a sphere.

 

[NeonSturm]

in which case sines are involved. You perform the rotation before scaling the shape into a sphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...ewer/File:2D_affine_transformation_matrix.svg

Only once per shielded object, not per projectile check afterwards it is only multiplications.
You even need rotation only once for all bubbles on a ship if some turrets or docked entities are not rotated.
Maybe you even need it currently for projectile spawn and block collision check.

You also need sin+cos every 0.03 to 0.3 seconds when thrust is applied and the ship flies in a new direction,
Probably you can even optimize the process into caching a value from that math.

 

[Megacrafter127]

You also need sin+cos every 0.03 to 0.3 seconds when thrust is applied and the ship flies in a new direction,
Probably you can even optimize the process into caching a value from that math.

Nope, the current direction of the ship is stored as a 3d vector.

 

[Lecic]

Guys, this suggestion isn't suggesting "spherical" shields, it's suggesting that invisible shield blocks be generated around the ship at a certain distance, so there isn't a performance increase.

As I've said many times before, I don't like spherical shields as a concept.

 

[deathsoul097]

Why not just allow an invisible shield block to be placed that blocks all incoming fire, nd have the amount of blocks be based on the size of the shield system. These blocks would be invisible and physicsless. (Except for collision with incoming projectiles, of course) You would be able to fly through and nder them, and you and turrets would be able to shoot out. You could even use this to harden shiedling areas, at the expense of other areas, etc. It would adda whole other layer of customizability and srategy, and allow for fighters to be useful against larger ships, as they could get under the shields and harrass the hull and any exposed systems/ turrets, etc.

(Im suggesting that shields could be built up manually, as well as automatically.)

 

[Lecic]

Why not just allow an invisible shield block to be placed that blocks all incoming fire, nd have the amount of blocks be based on the size of the shield system. These blocks would be invisible and physicsless. (Except for collision with incoming projectiles, of course) You would be able to fly through and nder them, and you and turrets would be able to shoot out. You could even use this to harden shiedling areas, at the expense of other areas, etc. It would adda whole other layer of customizability and srategy, and allow for fighters to be useful against larger ships, as they could get under the shields and harrass the hull and any exposed systems/ turrets, etc.

(Im suggesting that shields could be built up manually, as well as automatically.)

Why would anyone use non-bubble shields for ships with turrets, then?

 

[deathsoul097]

Why would anyone use non-bubble shields for ships with turrets, then?

Oh, I thought I was clearer about that. There would be 2 modes. One, in which you build and place the shield blocks manually, and another, where you have the shield automatically automatically generated around the ship in an oblong format. The first means customizability, and means you can better protect areas on the ship that may be weaker or more important, such as turrets, weapons and systems, but the second would create a balanced format around your ship.

 

[NeonSturm]

I just see memory usage as a problem.

 

[takethispie]

so we also have another problem, people are already crying about how they can't survive against a dreadnought/titans with their little fighter/corvette or anything smaller than a "big ship" , if the turrets are protected with shields people will start to scream...

btw you also need to detect if the projectile is coming from inside of the bubble (turrets, ship taking off, etc) and if it's friendly and that add calculations and lot of complications for nothing

 

[NeonSturm]

btw you also need to detect if the projectile is coming from inside of the bubble (turrets, ship taking off, etc) and if it's friendly and that add calculations and lot of complications for nothing

If it comes from inside x.min .. x.max & y.min .. y.max & z.min .. z.max ?

 

[takethispie]

yes and you need to know from wich entity the projectile comes from make it pass through the shield or not if it's an ally , but what if an ally shoot at the same time as an enemy ?
does the shield block enemy ships ? etc
and there is a lot more
the thing is that actual shields use the same (or almost) collision detection as the blocks while the bubble shields will need a whole new collision detection system

but the main issue aka turret having the ship's shield + their own shields is a pretty good answer to the re-take of shield bubbles anyway ^^'

 

[aceface]

the problem isn't about rendering at all, it's about projectile detection , detecting a projectile and where it comes from on a spherical surface is really a pain in the ass and take a lot of processing power for nothing

why not make it be a cube then?[DOUBLEPOST=1414959071,1414958995][/DOUBLEPOST]i think big bubble shields would be cool - tiny drones could attack from within :D

 

[srs008]

btw you also need to detect if the projectile is coming from inside of the bubble (turrets, ship taking off, etc) and if it's friendly and that add calculations and lot of complications for nothing

had not thought of that one, but weapons obviously have some sort of friendly tag on them already, so let's pretend there is THREE ships. one friendly, you, and an enemy.
now for some crazy reason, let's pretend your between them, but they also have a clear line of sight between them.
by adding a tag to a projectile [faction=FACTIONNAME], when a projectile hits a shield, (but before it "deletes" the projectile), it checks that tag, if it's friendly, it checks if it was going to hit it's ship, if not, it passes cleanly through.

this would solve the issue of friendly fire, however it adds processor load by projectile, a poor mans fix would be to check for OTHER ships, and if it's only friends on that "side", it should ignore the checks, however the server would have to also calculate if any ships are cloaked in proximity to that side, probably only reduce the load about 1/4... but that's still an improvement.

as everyone is aware though, the true implementation would be decided by devs, when does it become viable to implement?
a bubble shield may be fantastic on a cruiser, but how would it go on a titan? as far as the game engine is concerned, every ship is a round oval... in some ways that could be used to drastically reduce the game load, since that shield would effectively be the ships shape, collision detection could become a three stage process,
step one would be a virtual square, if something was to enter that area... then it'd begin step 2, detection on the shield area...
if within that area, then it'd kick in step 3, the usual ship detection setup. (actually, they probably already do step 1 in code)

so although a ships physical dimensions are unique, the game could generalise the actual hit box until the shields are not in play, either by being within them, or by being turned off...
so actually, in theory we could reduce the load... in practice? who knows?

 

[takethispie]

yeah but turrets.

x)

 

[SapioiT]

Forget about spheres, just render a "copy" of the outer block's shape, but few blocks away from the block we're talking about. and if the same shield's shapes would overlap, they would become one

 

[srs008]

Forget about spheres, just render a "copy" of the outer block's shape, but few blocks away from the block we're talking about. and if the same shield's shapes would overlap, they would become one

yeah, but that also defeats the secondary purpose, using the shield to protect friendlies... like fighters...
in short range...
if you build a shuttle bay say, halfway in your ship, a bubble would encompass fighters until they had actually left the ships dimensions... but with your style, we are left with either "pillars" to make shield screens... or nothing...
besides, i'm hoping that the ability to increase shield size is later Incorporated, allowing us to have proper shield cruisers...
that said, i'm hoping... not expecting. the very nature of a bubble shield would benefit turrets, and fighters, which are the primary concerns...

also, i forgot to mention, i propose "bubble" shields to impact eachother, since large vessels would typically have bubbles, this prevents heavy ships running the shields, but would still allow fighters with "skin" shields to happily bypass bubbles, and still attack turrets within the bubble...

 

[Lecic]

the very nature of a bubble shield would benefit turrets

And that is one of the many reasons why we aren't going to get bubble shields. Turrets not sharing the mothership's shields is a purposeful part of balancing the game to allow small ships to still do damage to large ships and help in a battle, besides being in swarms of drones.

 

[srs008]

And that is one of the many reasons why we aren't going to get bubble shields. Turrets not sharing the mothership's shields is a purposeful part of balancing the game to allow small ships to still do damage to large ships and help in a battle, besides being in swarms of drones.

that's the point, since bubble shields should collide, ANY vessel with a bubble shield would not be able to get within another's shields, since i'm not suggesting the removal of "skin" shields... fighters would end up with skin shields, hence being able to fly straight through and attack directly, bubble shields are to protect against long range attacks, like those another cruiser could field. you'll still need fighters, and small fighter shredders as well...

 

[Lecic]

that's the point, since bubble shields should collide, ANY vessel with a bubble shield would not be able to get within another's shields, since i'm not suggesting the removal of "skin" shields... fighters would end up with skin shields, hence being able to fly straight through and attack directly, bubble shields are to protect against long range attacks, like those another cruiser could field. you'll still need fighters, and small fighter shredders as well...

Unless the bubble shield is a far distance away from the ship, this isn't going to work. the 50m or so you'd have to maneuver under a bubble shield is not enough for fighters to be worthwhile. This would also make drones much less powerful, as one of their main bonuses is being able to overwhelm turrets with targets and then kill them.