Beam Weapon Visuals - Travel time

[Hexed]

I really like the beam weapons in starmade and was super excited when they were first implemented in the game. However the current visual effect feels off and there is only one tiny reason for this: the beam does not travel.

It's essentially empty space and then the beam just appears which feels weird. I think it would be better if the beam had some visible travel time from it's weapon system to the target. Even if it's only a fraction of a second it would still at least look and feel a little better IMHO.


Similar in appearance to the Phasor spread in this clip.

 

[Calhoun]

Beams are meant to travel at the speed of light.

You can't see that fast, sorry.

 

[NeonSturm]

It is not a FREAKING LAZOR GUN!
It's a "BEAM" emitter.

And BEAMs can be anything - from photons to electrons/protons/neutrons or a stream of iron-atoms.

Mass accelerators never reach the speed of light, but maybe 99.99% of it. It's might also be plausible to accelerate particles to about 90% of the speed of light to save energy and have the heat or charge level do the destructive job.

You can get a much bigger destructive force from pulsating particle waves than from a constant beam, but near the speed limit it might not be possible to make the waves dense enough, depending on used technology in StarMade beam cannons.

 

[Heillos]

One of the key defining factors of beams is that they're instantaneous. Fraction of a second or not, I see no reason to change that.

Also, seconding the fact that even on the technically astronomic scale Starmade is at, any light-speed or near-light-speed weapon wouldn't take a humanly observable amount of time to hit its mark.

 

[NeonSturm]

Light goes 7 times around earth each second.

Light needs 8 minutes from the sun to earth;
the sun is in the centre of 16x16x16 sectors and earth would be maybe in the 4th of 8 sectors away
=> A beam gun needs 2 minutes to travel one sector :D

Heilloses Durcheinander in deinen Argumenten ^^

 

[Gasboy]

I really like the beam weapons in starmade and was super excited when they were first implemented in the game. However the current visual effect feels off and there is only one tiny reason for this: the beam does not travel.

It's essentially empty space and then the beam just appears which feels weird. I think it would be better if the beam had some visible travel time from it's weapon system to the target. Even if it's only a fraction of a second it would still at least look and feel a little better IMHO.


Similar in appearance to the Phasor spread in this clip.

The thing is, it's essentially light.

Flick on a light in your house. How fast does it take the light to appear?

Light travels 299,792,458 m / s, or, 299,792.458 km / s. How big is a sector in the default StarMade setting? How big is a system?

At pretty much any range that you're going to fight in, a beam weapon is going to be instantaneous.

Whether it "looks better" or not is in the eye of the beholder.
[doublepost=1486326742,1486326515][/doublepost]

Light goes 7 times around earth each second.

Light needs 8 minutes from the sun to earth;
the sun is in the centre of 16x16x16 sectors and earth would be maybe in the 4th of 8 sectors away
=> A beam gun needs 2 minutes to travel one sector :D

Heilloses Durcheinander in deinen Argumenten ^^

Light travels at 299,792.458 km / s. It's effectively instantaneous as far as StarMade systems are concerned.

Earth would be inside the 1st sector away from the sun, possibly just inside the 2nd.

 

[Calhoun]

Light travels at 299,792.458 km / s. It's effectively instantaneous as far as StarMade systems are concerned.

Earth would be inside the 1st sector away from the sun, possibly just inside the 2nd.

Not with 2km sectors it wouldn't!

 

[Gasboy]

Not with 2km sectors it wouldn't!

Well, you either use the proper scale of the solar system, with the Sun in the center, and the edges being the orbit of Neptune (or Pluto), which means that Earth is orbiting in the first sector around the sun.

Or, you use actual distance in kilometers, in which good luck ever finding Earth, let alone any asteroids.

You can't do both, which is kind of what NeonSturm was doing.

 

[jayman38]

I agree with this sugestion.

1. It will be more fun. (Requiring actual aiming, not just press-to-hit)
2. It will look more like "beams" in movies.
3. It will use the existing mechanics of cannons. Caveat: game-coordinate interaction calculations over the entire length of the beam's length. A new, invisible, "long-range", long-extrusion interference "brush" to test for interactions will need to be created by the game to test for hits between the back of the beam shot and the front. Or maybe just use a ray like the existing beam, starting at the back of the beam and projecting to the front end.)
4. Beams should be able to intercept missiles, like I think they should.
5. The beams should work better with AI moving-target leading, to work better like cannon shots.

Ideas for custom beams: Able to adjust length and/or speed of the beam either server-wide via server config, or per-weapon via secondary weapon slaves. We already have different beam lengths via beam slave, so that mechanic is already available.

To be more competitive with cannons, beams should get at least 90% of the range of cannons. Effectively, with this suggestion, beams will become long-tail cannon shots. And I think that's great.

 

[Gasboy]

1. It will be more fun. (Requiring actual aiming, not just press-to-hit)
2. It will look more like "beams" in movies.
3. It will use the existing mechanics of cannons. Caveat: game-coordinate interaction calculations over the entire length of the beam's length. A new, invisible, "long-range", long-extrusion interference "brush" to test for interactions will need to be created by the game to test for hits between the back of the beam shot and the front. Or maybe just use a ray like the existing beam, starting at the back of the beam and projecting to the front end.)
4. Beams should be able to intercept missiles, like I think they should.
5. The beams should work better with AI moving-target leading, to work better like cannon shots.

Right, so we should just get rid of beams and have cannons? 'Cause what you're suggesting is essentially a cannon.

Beams are hitscan weapons. They are meant to be somewhat noob and LAG friendly, since if you miss with the first contact, you still have a chance to at least get some damage on target. Beams are not meant to be Cannon#2.

 

[TheGT]

I think people are overthinking/misunderstanding this suggestion a bit. This is purely a visual change, if star made was meant to be hyper realistic (i.e. Elite: Dangerous). Well, there would be some considerable differences from what we have now. But it's not. The beams should still be aim-able during firing just as they are now, and they should still retain all other proprieties that they have now. The only difference is that they take a quarter second for the front end of the beam to hit the enemy ship when the user hold down the button, and a quarter second for the back end of the beam to hit the ship when the user lets go. If people are worried about gameplay problems, we can balance this by subtracting 0.5 seconds from reload time.

Like this:
(I apologize in advance for my art skills)

Spoiler: Art

I understand that this doesn't help my ethos, but hey, drawing with a mouse is hard.

 

[Groovrider]

Phasers aren't lasers. The beams have a travel time but its measured in fractions of a second.
The video example is of disrupter fire (IMO) which is more like a plasma shell that explodes on impact.
I would totally be ok if beams were a bit bigger but if it's travel time we're talking, thats a different weapon.

 

[DoomCarrot]

No, keep beams instantaneous. It is one of the things that makes them useful and more accurate than the otherwise superior in every way cannons.

 

[kingreol]

I would totally be ok if beams were a bit bigger but if it's travel time we're talking, thats a different weapon.

perhaps keep it to pulse slave for the slow down effect. kinda reminds me more of say final fantasy mako canon. really thou think just having the beam rendered differently and scale to size be MUCH better visually

 

[NeonSturm]

Visually, it could have a delay for awesomeness.
Mechanically, we need instant-hit weapons and if they are not beams, wormhole projectors would suffice too.

Whats wrong with a plasma bullet that's guided by EM-effects after being shot if it is balanced in the same way as a missile?
Or with beams out of ionized iron which behave a bit like a whip/lash?

Perhaps we could separate visuals from mechanics.
​

Instant hit doesn't mean just if applies now or then, but also which block is hit (accuracy).
Travel time decreases accuracy the same as turret turn speeds, just based on distance other than the targets angular velocity.

If can use this 2-dimensional accuracy graph for balance by respecting each combo of "extremes" and "averages", it's a step forward toward fully customizable weapons.

 

[Lecic]

Absolutely not. Beams are hitscan. Either you make them NOT hitscan, removing the entire point, or you make them stay hitscan but have a visual effect with travel time, which would result in an obnoxious disconnect between visual impact and damage.

1. It will be more fun. (Requiring actual aiming, not just press-to-hit)

Considering how cannons and beams (and missiles) are all incredibly boring to use in the game currently, I don't think "hitscan" is what makes beam weapons "unfun" in the current game. Also, making beams into projectiles will not "be more fun."

 

[Comr4de]

Similar in appearance to the Phasor spread in this clip.

2. It will look more like "beams" in movies.

perhaps keep it to pulse slave for the slow down effect. kinda reminds me more of say final fantasy mako canon. really thou think just having the beam rendered differently and scale to size be MUCH better visually

New starmade dock drinking game: Open a suggestion thread, and every time someone asks for the game to be more like X TV show game or Movie, take a shot. Guaranteed alcohol poisoning within ten minutes.

 

[Nickizzy]

I think people are overthinking/misunderstanding this suggestion a bit. This is purely a visual change, if star made was meant to be hyper realistic (i.e. Elite: Dangerous). Well, there would be some considerable differences from what we have now. But it's not. The beams should still be aim-able during firing just as they are now, and they should still retain all other proprieties that they have now. The only difference is that they take a quarter second for the front end of the beam to hit the enemy ship when the user hold down the button, and a quarter second for the back end of the beam to hit the ship when the user lets go. If people are worried about gameplay problems, we can balance this by subtracting 0.5 seconds from reload time.

Like this:
(I apologize in advance for my art skills)

Spoiler: Art

I understand that this doesn't help my ethos, but hey, drawing with a mouse is hard.

So like in old robocraft where lasers were hitscan but had shot effects that weren't? That didn't really work to well. I imagine it'd be even worse if we had that with a consistent firing weapon, where the shot would sometimes outright miss, and still do damage.


Also,

final fantasy mako canon

canon

 

[Edymnion]

New starmade dock drinking game: Open a suggestion thread, and every time someone asks for the game to be more like X TV show game or Movie, take a shot. Guaranteed alcohol poisoning within ten minutes.

No need to be an ass about it.

Starmade is already very much like TV shows and movies. The jump drive we have now is visually identical to Star Wars hyperspace. The cannon fire looks just like the cannon fire from Battlestar Galactica or Stargate SG1.

If you're going to make a genre based game, then you should EXPECT people to want to see genre based specifics.

 

[Gasboy]

No need to be an ass about it.

Starmade is already very much like TV shows and movies. The jump drive we have now is visually identical to Star Wars hyperspace. The cannon fire looks just like the cannon fire from Battlestar Galactica or Stargate SG1.

If you're going to make a genre based game, then you should EXPECT people to want to see genre based specifics.

And for the most part, we are seeing genre based specifics.

This does not mean every last single thing put into the game should be a copy of something from a movie, TV show or book.

To me, the beam weapon is more hard sci-fi than the beam weapons seen in movies and TV shows. If it's made of LIGHT, you shouldn't be able to watch it travel, if you're anywhere close enough to see the beam emerge, its travel time is going to be pretty much instantaneous, because LIGHT.

The suggestions people are offering are pretty much asking for a longer cannon weapon, not a beam weapon.